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[SneakersSO]

going from 1.3tf to 6tf with more ram isnt much more powerful?

damn, i have low standards! lol TF

double negative in my post - I was saying it is more powerful.

Isn't removing ESRAM already a significant change to the pipeline?

Sure, but the most used memory management solution on Durango was something MS themselves built into the SDK, specifically because of ESRAM. MS could easily adjust it on their end for a Scorpio configuration.

 

[Agnostic Priest]

My guess is they wanted to give more time for some first party projects to complete to show off at the Scorpio reveal to maximize hype.

This is the biggest reason. They really need to go all-out on available games showcasing the difference the new console brings.

 

[Okami Haundo]

If this is true, why would they wait for a full year?

I've seen a few people ask this question, and it shows a clear misunderstanding of how these things work. Microsoft isn't just sitting on a completely finished piece of hardware for over a year...

 

[vivekTO]

going from 1.3tf to 6tf with more ram isnt much more powerful?

damn, i have low standards! lol TF

hmm, may be i am failing at reading but isn't he saying that indeed it is much more powerful??

 

[SenjutsuSage]

So this is it.

SneakerSo thinks its Jaguar

SenjutsuSage thinks its Zen.


Should we place bets? Run a poll?

I've already made a bet that it will absolutely be Zen. I forgot who I made it with, but if I check back my old posts I'm sure I'll find it.

Most certainly is, and probably a bigger one in the grand scheme of games development than would be the case for a notably more capable CPU.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

double negative in my post - I was saying it is more powerful.



Sure, but the most used memory management solution on Durango was something MS themselves built into the API, specifically because of ESRAM. MS could easily adjust it on their end for a Scorpio configuration.

hmm, may be i am failing at reading but isn't he saying that indeed it is much more powerful??

wow i suck at reading.

 

[SneakersSO]

I've already made a bet that it will absolutely be Zen. I forgot who I made it with, but if I check back my old posts I'm sure I'll find it.

Most certainly is, and probably a bigger one in the grand scheme of games development than would be the case for a notably more capable CPU.

Just don't go full MisterXMedia & keep claiming its in there and going to be a launch/later date surprise when they unlock the full power on this thing. Thats the last thing we need around here.

 

[Lady Gaia]

That'd be a disappointment if the CPU is merely a higher clocked version with a few tweaks. No matter who is to blame (MS or AMD).

I guess I can understand this mindset. I'm just not clear why a dramatic change in the CPU would be a priority when the plan is to have all software run on Xbox One as well as Scorpio. It seems the pricey and time-consuming investment would go largely unused. Everything Microsoft has said indicates that the goal is to run Xbox One titles at 4K.

If this is true, why would they wait for a full year?

The year's delay will have enabled enough GPU power to run 1080p Xbox One titles at 4K native resolutions. That wouldn't have been practical last year. It may also have hit a point on the price curve where 12GB of GDDR5 can be included at their target price point.

 

[Darkstorne]

That wouldn't be a problem for Scorpio because of how the Xbox One operating is designed. Don't forget it has a hypervisor that provides some degree of abstraction from the OS running the game and layer that actually has full control of the system's hardware. It's, for example, why the Xbox One S can automatically provide a better experience on every game compared to the OG box.

Right, but thats because the CPU is still both the same architecture, chipset, AND at a slightly higher clock rate. In order to really put this to test, you'd need to see how it would run on CPUs of radically different chipset manufacturers. It's still enough of a variable that you may want to just avoid if you start getting games in the back catalog running in unintentional conditions.

The other important thing to consider with the CPU upgrade is... why would they bother with something significantly more powerful? It's still going to be playing exactly the same games as the OG Xbox One, and the main focus seems to be on running them at 4k just like the Pro does for the PS4. That's something the GPU will be need a big upgrade for, but not something the CPU will need a big upgrade for. Makes more sense to follow suit with the Pro, providing a minor CPU upgrade for a lower cost to consumers. Save the big changes for the next generation, when new games will be allowed to fully make use of them.

 

[Space_nut]

Scorpio is going to be incredibly powerful.

-6+ raw TF of gpu power
-latest gpu architecture with all the advancements
-320 go/s memory bandwidth
-12 GB of ram
-4 GB of more ram than any console will allow a lot to graphics
-8 CPU core
-either be zen which will allow smoother fps or other CPU which anyway will be upclockrd very high

2 more months fellas

 

[Hawk269]

Just don't go full MisterXMedia & keep claiming its in there and going to be a launch/later date surprise when they unlock the full power on this thing. Thats the last thing we need around here.

I don't think you or anyone needs to worry about that. If anything, he has been pretty level headed about things Scorpio related. For me, I am on the side of it having Zen, but at the same time, I am not banking on it until I hear it from MS themselves. Regardless if it is Zen or not, I think most are in agreement that it will be a powerful machine, but hopes for Zen are that it having it really takes it over the top and really cements that this machine will be a "monster" as MS has stated.

 

[Thats a Greay Area]

Sure, but the most used memory management solution on Durango was something MS themselves built into the SDK, specifically because of ESRAM. MS could easily adjust it on their end for a Scorpio configuration.

I see what you're saying.

The other important thing to consider with the CPU upgrade is... why would they bother with something significantly more powerful? It's still going to be playing exactly the same games as the OG Xbox One, and the main focus seems to be on running them at 4k just like the Pro does for the PS4. That's something the GPU will be need a big upgrade for, but not something the CPU will need a big upgrade for. Makes more sense to follow suit with the Pro, providing a minor CPU upgrade for a lower cost to consumers. Save the big changes for the next generation, when new games will be allowed to fully make use of them.

To the bolded, I would say; because it's a bridge to the next Xbox. If they are confident in their Hypervisor and UWP stacks then they are thinking about future portability and always having a high and low end in the market simultaneously.

 

[justsomeguy]

E: Misunderstood the point

 

[Strootman]

Who's SenjutsuSage?

 

[djnewwest]

I guessing If it is Jaguar than $399. If it happens to get Zen, than $449.

 

[NowhereFaded]

Scorpio is going to be incredibly powerful.

-6+ raw TF of gpu power
-latest gpu architecture with all the advancements
-320 go/s memory bandwidth
-12 GB of ram
-4 GB of more ram than any console will allow a lot to graphics
-8 CPU core
-either be zen which will allow smoother fps or other CPU which anyway will be upclockrd very high

2 more months fellas

If you had to guess how much would a system of this magnitude cost the general public?

 

[Space_nut]

If you had to guess how much would a system of this magnitude cost the general public?

$400 for that surprise MS could do at E3 but I'm expecting $449 for base model

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

Hold on, are people now just guessing what it could be or are some folks in the know?

 

[DBT85]

I've already made a bet that it will absolutely be Zen. I forgot who I made it with, but if I check back my old posts I'm sure I'll find it.

Most certainly is, and probably a bigger one in the grand scheme of games development than would be the case for a notably more capable CPU.

Is it a ban bet?

 

[Bsigg12]

Is it a ban bet?

No, I think it was an avatar bet. I want to say it was with Chobel but it's been a while since I saw the thread they made it in.

 

[Okami Haundo]

Random question time! Obviously we're Xbox fans in this thread, so I wanted to do a quick poll. If Scorpio releases with a better version of the same CPU and the other specs that we've seen remain the same, what's the max you would pay and with how much storage?

If the Scorpio were priced above your max amount and the PS4 Pro were to drop about $50 in price, would you consider switching platforms?

I ask because I feel like I've seen my fair share of posts that think Scorpio will magically persuade PS4 owners to Switch platforms. I don't think that's going to happen, but I do believe that Microsoft could stand to lose Xbox customers with bad pricing. Hence why I don't personally believe that we'll see a SKU that goes over $399.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Random question time! Obviously we're Xbox fans in this thread

This is patently untrue.

There are quite a few posters in this thread who are in no way Xbox fans. Quite the opposite.

 

[Shadowhaxor]

If you had to guess how much would a system of this magnitude cost the general public?

I'm betting $450-500. The thing here is if that MS really wants people to buy this, they'll take this at a loss to get this in our hands. But I don't recall or not if MS stated that they'd be willing to do this.

 

[CrimsonGun]

The closer the date gets the more I want it. lol
Haven't felt this excited for a console in awhile.

 

[hanspampel]

Random question time! Obviously we're Xbox fans in this thread, so I wanted to do a quick poll. If Scorpio releases with a better version of the same CPU and the other specs that we've seen remain the same, what's the max you would pay and with how much storage?

If the Scorpio were priced above your max amount and the PS4 Pro were to drop about $50 in price, would you consider switching platforms?

I ask because I feel like I've seen my fair share of posts that think Scorpio will magically persuade PS4 owners to Switch platforms. I don't think that's going to happen, but I do believe that Microsoft could stand to lose Xbox customers with bad pricing. Hence why I don't personally believe that we'll see a SKU that goes over $399.

Xbox Scorpio without Zen, but rather an old Jaguar CPU is just not future proof
so you have to buy the next Xbox 3 years down the road, again.
$399 MSRP and ~ $349 as retail / deal price is the max i would pay for that console


Xbox Scorpio with Zen could potentially still run games from 2022 at a lower resolution with solid performance.
Xbox Scorpio without Zen, but Jaguar, i highly doubt it.
Zen is also the only AMD CPU architecture for the present and future. Jaguar and anything else is dead. I just don't want old EOL tech in the newest console.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I'm betting $450-500. The thing here is if that MS really wants people to buy this, they'll take this at a loss to get this in our hands. But I don't recall or not if MS stated that they'd be willing to do this.

I've said numerous times that the price and specs on this console depend on entirely on whether Microsoft are playing the long or short game.

If they're playing the long game, then this will most definitely be a Zen based console and I'd wager the GPU will be more than the 6TF they've announced. Which also means they COULD potentially go slightly higher than $399. Again, only if they're paying the long game.

Short game would mean $399 or less, Jag based CPU and they simply want the moniker "most powerful console" to make themselves feel better. Then they'll just keep making a slightly more powerful version of whatever Sony releases to keep their nose in front.

I'm hoping for the long game because I feel it's smarter business wise long term. They can keep Scorpi as the base model for a longer time, continue dropping the price and newer versions come out but leave it on the market as the cheap entry point into the ecosystem. Similar to Apple and iPad 2.

 

[Mihalis0013]

If Scorpio releases with a better version of the same CPU and the other specs that we've seen remain the same, what's the max you would pay and with how much storage?

If the Scorpio were priced above your max amount and the PS4 Pro were to drop about $50 in price, would you consider switching platforms?

I'd go up to $500 regardless of which CPU is in it. Mostly because I've already convinced myself that it will be $499 or $499 for the variant that I would prefer. I expect the Xbox One to launch at $500 and when it did I didn't really give it any thought.

As for the PS 4 Pro part of the question, I already own one but I would not trade it for a Scorpio. I like to own all the platforms and am fortunate enough to be able to get the "better versions" of them.

To be clear, I think MS would be nuts to be higher than $399, but it wouldn't be the first time they used the term "premium product" and then came out with a nasty price tag.

 

[onQ123]

Well, its always good for you to take time out from your lunch hr before going back to flipping burgers to discuss software issues.

LOL do you know who you're talking to?

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

Xbox Scorpio without Zen, but rather an old Jaguar CPU is just not future proof
so you have to buy the next Xbox 3 years down the road, again.
$399 MSRP and ~ $349 as retail / deal price is the max i would pay for that console


Xbox Scorpio with Zen could potentially still run games from 2022 at a lower resolution with solid performance.
Xbox Scorpio without Zen, but Jaguar, i highly doubt it.
Zen is also the only AMD CPU architecture for the present and future. Jaguar and anything else is dead. I just don't want old EOL tech in the newest console.

You do make a good point there. Unless MS indeed intends to introduce another version of the Scorpio in a few years, which definitely is possible. But i highly doubt that new version will contain brand new hardware and will likely still have the Jaguar then. And in three years from now they really can't be bothering with Jaguar anymore. So it's either that or they are still going for Jaguar but overclocked significantly and ride that out until whenever Sony comes with the PS5. Unless it's over for Xbox after Scorpio, which acrually plenty of people seem to believe that i talked to and it's something i highly doubt.

The question is though....is it plausible at all that they managed to get Ryzen for Scorpio?

 

[Okami Haundo]

Xbox Scorpio without Zen, but rather an old Jaguar CPU is just not future proof
so you have to buy the next Xbox 3 years down the road, again.
$399 MSRP and ~ $349 as retail / deal price is the max i would pay for that console


Xbox Scorpio with Zen could potentially still run games from 2022 at a lower resolution with solid performance.
Xbox Scorpio without Zen, but Jaguar, i highly doubt it.
Zen is also the only AMD CPU architecture for the present and future. Jaguar and anything else is dead. I just don't want old EOL tech in the newest console.

Honestly, my personal expectation is that we get Scorpio this fall with Jaguar and the other specs mentioned for no more than $399. From then out, I'm imagining a world in which we get a new Xbox every three years along the "tick-tock" cycle that Apple likes to follow. Major revision, "tick" upgrade, major revision, repeat indefinitely.

Some would say that this means Microsoft is being a bit tongue-in-cheek with the whole "most powerful console ever" talk, but Sony already did something similar with PS4 Pro. Heck, every new iPhone is introduced as "the best iPhone we've ever made".

Either way, I'd happy buy into that upgrade cycle as I really like the way Microsoft has been handling Xbox. Though many who want to stick with the "traditional" console cycle would be very disappointed.

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

Honestly, my personal expectation is that we get Scorpio this fall with Jaguar and the other specs mentioned for no more than $399. From then out, I'm imagining a world in which we get a new Xbox every three years along the "tick-tock" cycle that Apple likes to follow. Major revision, "tick" upgrade, major revision, repeat indefinitely.

Some would say that this means Microsoft is being a bit tongue-in-cheek with the whole "most powerful console ever" talk, but Sony already did something similar with PS4 Pro. Heck, every new iPhone is introduced as "the best iPhone we've ever made".

Either way, I'd happy buy into that upgrade cycle as I really like the way Microsoft has been handling Xbox. Though many who want to stick with the "traditional" console cycle would be very disappointed.

Certainly seems to be the most realistic and plausible scenario. Ryzen is brand new, wouldn't it make the Scorpio cost incredibly much? Then again Phil Spencer did say they are targeting a certain group of people with Scorpio, people that want some extra power basically and i think they are willing to pay for that. But Phil also said he expects that most people will buy the S console. Is it really worth it for MS to actually get Ryzen for Scorpio then? If the majority is still going for S?

 

[justsomeguy]

Probably


But in all seriousness. With every post you make, just shows how much you do not know or understand about computers and software.

 

[Crayon]

I can't imagine a scenario where it's worth the trouble to get Zen in. A faster Jaguar would do everything they need it to do.

 

[Sony]

Genuine question: if it's known that the console is a roughly 6TF machine, why does it matter if its a Zen or Jaguar under the hood?

 

[Space_nut]

Genuine question: if it's known that the console is a roughly 6TF machine, why does it matter if its a Zen or Jaguar under the hood?

Fps smoothness that's all

 

[Synth]

Sure, but the most used memory management solution on Durango was something MS themselves built into the SDK, specifically because of ESRAM. MS could easily adjust it on their end for a Scorpio configuration.

Except the code base for the game, for this Xbox 1.5, would HAVE to be different if the APU is in anyway changed. Unless MS is planning to use an AMD CPU/GPU & eSRAM/DDR3, with the same bus configuration, then it has to have a code base written towards the machine it is running on.

So, under this suggestion then... are you saying that the new model would be unable to natively run Xbox One games released so far?

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. UNLESS the new model was emulating the current XBO, which is a whole other thing altogether. The only way I see it working in this way would be through emulation. But emulation has a ton of its own issues.

 

[12Dannu123]

My money is on Surface Pro/Surface Book announcements, not Xbox related (no inside info on this - just what I suspect based on sales on Surface hardware atm.)

Xbox for all recent hardware events has been along with other Microsoft hardware. It won't surprise me if they announce Scorpio there and announce games at E3

 

[12Dannu123]

It would be nice if they allowed centennial games as is on a separate store section. It would be insane for developers not just convert their games and put it there

But they can inflict a Windows RT-like limitation is that there were Win32 files and APIs. But Microsoft didn't allow third parties to use them.

If they were to use Windows 10 Cloud it'll be UWP only for native compatibility, same with Windows 10 ARM. Which in that case X86 emulation or UWP.

 

[Bsigg12]

My money is on Surface Pro/Surface Book announcements, not Xbox related (no inside info on this - just what I suspect based on sales on Surface hardware atm.)

Current rumor is no new Surface Book announcement which blows my mind.

 

[12Dannu123]

Well, they are opening the Creators section, with lessened requirements. Perhaps a one with even less requirements (like the game is allowed to use only keyboard, or this game puts the settings burden on the user) so devs can easily dump their games, and afterwards, if they find it worth it, upgrade as a regular Xbox game.

It's been reported that Scorpio or any other console whatsoever won't support Centennial games or apps. (Games that are just been converted to .appx)

 

[justsomeguy]

Current rumor is no new Surface Book announcement which blows my mind.

I saw that rumour. Hmm, the plot thickens. Phone?

 

[rrc1594]

I hate this thread, but I can't help look in here.

 

[massucci]

I guessing If it is Jaguar than $399. If it happens to get Zen, than $449.

Yeah right. A new generation of cpu with just 50$. Very plausible. How it wasn't enough crazy expect a 12 GB RAM and 320 GBs console at 399 $.

 

[Colbert]

The problem is, the further you change the CPU, the more work every dev who has ever released a game would have to do to ensure compatibility on the new hardware with the X1.

Sorry but what you are saying is not entirely correct (subtle saying).

Lets go into details:

a) Instruction set: Zen and Jag just use the same instruction sets. You don't even need to recompile your source code for the Zen. No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

b) Zen probably has a better IPC which means the CPU is faster in doing its calculations. Unless Devs have not put a single effort in synchronizing their threads in their existing games and totally forgot about that: No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

c) Memory speed limitations due to GDDR5 instead of DDR3. This is independent from the CPU architecture they use, it is in fact the same situation for Jag and Zen. No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

d) number of cores: MS said 8 cores. I tend to believe they always talked about physical cores. so no difference here. No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

e) if they would use Zen SMT: This is the only part where you can run into issues as you can't be on premise like with a physical core. BUT, the increase in IPC over Jag is more than enough to make this an non-issue.

So please tell me where you see those compatibility issues you are talking about. I can't see them on a hw level unless somebody programmed his game in Assembler.

Edit:
Btw I am not talking about a game is optimized to a certain CPU I talk about that a game can run on Zen like it does on Jag without any issues! I also saw your stance on how to handle the different situation about ESRAM. Thats far more challenging than changing the CPU because of the difference in read/write behavior of the memory for the GPU.

 

[Thats a Greay Area]

I wonder what changed his mind?

 

[Montresor]

Yeah right. A new generation of cpu with just 50$. Very plausible.

Believe.

+Zen CPU, $400, runs cooler and quieter than Xbox One S, internal power brick, and smaller than Xbox One S

+Also, Microsoft will buy Atlus, Playdead (Limbo/Inside devs), Thekla (The Witness dev), Fullbright (Gone Home / Tacoma devs), Studio MDHR (Cuphead devs), and Remedy and immediately start development on exclusive 1st party games from those devs.

+New Japanese 1st party studio called Osaka Japan is created and making Lost Odyssey 2 and Blue Dragon 2

+Sunset Overdrive 2 announced

 

[Okami Haundo]

Believe.

+Zen CPU, $400, runs cooler and quieter than Xbox One S, internal power brick, and smaller than Xbox One S

+Also, Microsoft will buy Atlus, Playdead (Limbo/Inside devs), Thekla (The Witness dev), Fullbright (Gone Home / Tacoma devs), Studio MDHR (Cuphead devs), and Remedy and immediately start development on exclusive 1st party games from those devs.

+New Japanese 1st party studio called Osaka Japan is created and making Lost Odyssey 2 and Blue Dragon 2

+Sunset Overdrive 2 announced

Your post made me laugh because I'm now just imagining their E3 conference being treated like a wacky Game Show. I'm picturing Larry Hyrb rolling a small table with a rotary telephone onto the stage so Phil can "call" the studios you mentioned and buy them during the conference.

Shortly after that, they have a "Price is Right" section where three members of the audience have to guess the price of Project Scorpio.

 

[massucci]

Sorry but what you are saying is not entirely correct (subtle saying).

Lets go into details:

a) Instruction set: Zen and Jag just use the same instruction sets. You don't even need to recompile your source code for the Zen. No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

b) Zen probably has a better IPC which means the CPU is faster in doing its calculations. Unless Devs have not put a single effort in synchronizing their threads in their existing games and totally forgot about that: No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

c) Memory speed limitations due to GDDR5 instead of DDR3. This is independent from the CPU architecture they use, it is in fact the same situation for Jag and Zen. No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

d) number of cores: MS said 8 cores. I tend to believe they always talked about physical cores. so no difference here. No issues with compatibility by changing the CPU!

e) if they would use Zen SMT: This is the only part where you can run into issues as you can't be on premise like with a physical core. BUT, the increase in IPC over Jag is more than enough to make this an non-issue.

So please tell me where you see those compatibility issues you are talking about. I can't see them on a hw level unless somebody programmed his game in Assembler.

Console it's not like pc. I have great, great doubt a new cpu can run the games without any kinda of backward issue. The same pro has a sort of, just with upclock. Can't imagine a cpu with different IPC.

 

[Colbert]

Believe.

+Zen CPU, $400, runs cooler and quieter than Xbox One S, internal power brick, and smaller than Xbox One S

+Also, Microsoft will buy Atlus, Playdead (Limbo/Inside devs), Thekla (The Witness dev), Fullbright (Gone Home / Tacoma devs), Studio MDHR (Cuphead devs), and Remedy and immediately start development on exclusive 1st party games from those devs.

+New Japanese 1st party studio called Osaka Japan is created and making Lost Odyssey 2 and Blue Dragon 2

+Sunset Overdrive 2 announced

I suppose thats your wet dream

Only speaking of hardware just because of the required cooling for the SOC I doubt you will see a smaller form factor. If they are good they are able to make it just as small as the Xbox One S.

 

[Colbert]

Console it's not like pc. I have great, great doubt a new cpu can run the games without any kinda of backward issue. The same pro has a sort of, just with upclock. Can't imagine a cpu with different IPC.

I don't know your background but what do you think is different between PC and console when it comes to how you control and execute code on a CPU?

There is none. CPUs on PCs and console use the same instruction set (= machine code) this generation (I talk about x64/x86 family of processors).

The only difference is that your CPU in a console has more space (utilization) for your game as it is not used for background threads/processes have nothing to do with gaming.

Guess what why MS is introducing "Game Mode" on PC's? Because they want to get the same kind of prioritisation of game process/threads on a PC like on a console.

The main reason a Windows Game is not running on your console is that they use different kind of OS layers and APIs. At least for Windows 10 MS tries to even get rid of this barrier with their UWP approach. Btw UWP apps just using the same packages (code) that is compiled once for the target (x64 CPUs). As you already should have guessed correctly, they behave and run the same way on console or any PC no matter what x86 CPU you are using.