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[Gotdatmoney]

But Sonic was never that good. Levels were designed to run through instead of actual challenging platforming. The platforming that was there was just off.

Crash Bandicoot was always good, though.

You never played a sonic game. That much is obvious. You cannkt run through sonic 1-3 without mastering the level layouts. Those games have shit tons of platforming

Crash Bandicoot was A1 from the start. Games were great. Same with Spyro 1-3

 

[Instro]

I think there are a lot of people who feel that 3D World was rather reductive, and step back for the series, myself included. It's still well designed and a great game, albeit a lesser experience than most 3D Mario's.

 

[vermadas]

I hate 3D games with fixed cameras, but it works in 3D World. It helps that in 3D World the levels are very linear and there's very little need to backtrack. The goal is simply to get to the end.

I agree with you about the lack of analog movement though.

 

[Neptonic]

Ok. Why?

My argument is the position of the camera. It always gives you a similar point of view and, as you say, the game is designed in a way so you don't need to adjust it.

It's a platformer thing, if you use actual 2D graphics then there is no real depth to the world since you are literally missing a dimension.
As for examples of levels that wouldn't work the climb up to world bowser definitely wouldn't work.

 

[VDenter]

Nothing in any of the 3D Mario games is harder than the after game worlds of 3D World. Nothing.

Only the Champions Road was legit hard. It was not really worth sacrificing the entire game being so easy for nor was it worth playing the game 100% to experience it.

 

[Belgian Dude]

Super Mario 63 showed you can make a halfway decent game on the style of Mario 64 in 2d, so I don't even see how "you can remove some concepts from the game to fit it in another viewpoint" is even a knock against 3d world?

Like so what if 3d world was isometric, it'd still be a design choice and wouldn't be archaic just because of the viewpoint.

 

[nkarafo]

Okay. You haven't played the game then. Or you played it blinded. Or you don't know what a perspective is. At this point I really don't know.

I played the game up to Bowser world. And i believe most of what i saw would work this way or at least it would be much easier to be ported in such a format, compared to the free roaming Mario games or Galaxy (that one is obvious).

That's how i feel, i'm not a developer though so yeah, you don't have to accept it.

 

[Bakkus]

From what I've seen and read. Y-L seems little archaic and more just unsuccessful in doing what it's setting out to do.

 

[WillyFive]

I complained about 3D Land and 3D World.

But I would compare YL closer to the NSMB of 3D platformers rather than the 3DL/W games. Although the latter was a regressive step, YL doesn't really regress from the earlier games, it just doesn't bother to do much new.

 

[protonium]

.

 

[LordKano]

I played the game up to Bowser world. And i believe most of it would work this way or at least it would be much easier to be ported in such a format, compared to the free roaming Mario games or Galaxy (that one is obvious).

That's how i feel, i'm not a developer though so yeah, you don't have to accept it.

I'm not a developer but I can tell you that you're extremely wrong. Anyone could, actually.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Nothing in any of the 3D Mario games is harder than the after game worlds of 3D World. Nothing.

Yup. And the mechanics of World were fine. You don't need more than a run and jump to get through these obstacle courses, it's the essence of Mario.

64 gave Mario a foot sweep, which really came in handy for the rare Goomba shuffling towards you. There is no challenging platforming in 64 or any difficult enemy placement. 3D World does have that. It works for both novice players and players who want a challenge.

 

[axisofweevils]

I seem to remember a LOT of people complaining about Mario 3D World. Mainly for not being like the Galaxy games.

The first trailer really didn't make the game look good, and the game had really poor impressions. I remember a lot of "LOL! Innovative clear pipes!" and people posting images of Knack as an example of what a good platformer should look like............... Yep, that sentiment definitely didn't age well.

 

[Moze]

You never played a sonic game. That much is obvious. You cannkt run through sonic 1-3 without mastering the level layouts. Those games have shit tons of platforming

Crash Bandicoot was A1 from the start. Games were great. Same with Spyro 1-3

Lies. I played Sonic 1 quite recently and ran through most of it.

Spyro is bad. No one has time for late 90s cameras.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Only the Champions Road was legit hard. It was not really worth sacrificing the entire game being so easy for nor was it worth playing the game 100% to experience it.

Any of the later worlds were harder to 100 percent than anything in 64, which is never challenging at all. I could get all stars in that with my eyes closed. Almost.
And CR is worth it, greatest 3D platforming level ever.

 

[AHindD]

I played the game up to Bowser world. And i believe most of what i saw would work this way or at least it would be much easier to be ported in such a format, compared to the free roaming Mario games or Galaxy (that one is obvious).

That's how i feel, i'm not a developer though so yeah, you don't have to accept it.

Reading through your comments in this thread, yeah, no fucking shit.

 

[Octavianus]

What the fuck are you on about?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Only the Champions Road was legit hard. It was not really worth sacrificing the entire game being so easy for nor was it worth playing the game 100% to experience it.

Like I said nope. Nothing in any of the 3D Mario games is harder than what you have the Star World, Flower ad Mushroom of 3D World. Go back and play all those games. You have zero idea what you are talking about if you are actually arguing anything in Galaxy 1, 2 or 64 is harder than 3D Worlds end game

 

[Skyzard]

I feel like Mario 64 is a better comparison to Yooka Laylee than 3D World based on the physical structure of the levels, and the reason people didn't give Mario 64 shit for its camera is that it was released decades ago and was crazy impressive for the time.

Yooka Laylee's camera needs polish. It gets stuck on things requiring patience. And people don't have it these days.

I think the game is fantastic otherwise so far though (3hours in). Very ambitious and does what it set out to do - make a new banjo game. Beautiful graphics, good controls (though I would like sensitivity dropped while rolling at not max speed to aid control), the music, animation, characters, set up, big large levels to explore. They nailed all of that, it's a 3D platforming banjo adventure. Whose camera needs some work to feel a bit smoother. Maybe some tweaks to the controls for easier control.

 

[nkarafo]

I'm not a developer but I can tell you that you're extremely wrong. Anyone could, actually.

Not even the argument that it would be much easier to be ported in such format with some success than, say, Sunshine or Galaxy?

 

[AHindD]

Not even the argument that it would be much easier to be ported in such format with some success than, say, Sunshine or Galaxy?

With no success, yes, you are correct it could be ported.

 

[Oddish1]

I think there are a lot of people who feel that 3D World was rather reductive, and step back for the series, myself included. It's still well designed and a great game, albeit a lesser experience than most 3D Mario's.

I don't understand what you mean by a lesser experience. I suspect that most people mean that it wasn't a big open world, but not having a big open world was a positive because it allows for much better level design which is a good thing to have in a platforming game.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

I don't see anything in the first level that wouldn't work in an overhead 2D perspective.

The theme park level in Sunshine (for instance) would never work.

You tell me what part of this works in a 2d perspective. This is literally the first thing you see in the first level.

 

[shark sandwich]

LOL I see the Yooka-Laylee backers have reached the "I'm gonna insult a game YOU like" stage of review denial.

Hope you guys are able to reach acceptance soon.

 

[Jonneh3003]

Lies. I played Sonic 1 quite recently and ran through most of it.

Spyro is bad. No one has time for late 90s cameras.

Sonic 1 is actually full of vertical platforming in the later parts of the game (Star Light Zone comes to mind) which is why it's my least favourite game in the original trilogy. I don't like platformers where you can fall all the way down to a previous part of the level. Each game is full of platforming though. Sonic is all about momentum based platforming, not just running through a stage.

Pretty much every first zone in 2D Sonic is light on platforming to introduce you to the mechanics but as the games progress you'll start to notice it becomes harder to blaze through a zone.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Lies. I played Sonic 1 quite recently and ran through most of it.

Spyro is bad. No one has time for late 90s cameras.

You did not run through most of Sonic 1. That is not possible. Sonic 1 slows down your movement for platforming more than any of the other games in the series. This is flat out false.

Spyro 2-3 have a good camera for early 3D. The games have big open space but they are still linear point A to point B. Again, go actually play it. Only the first game struggles with camera and it is still pretty good

 

[WillyFive]

You tell me what part of this works in a 2d perspective. This is literally the first thing you see in the first level.

He said overhead 2D, so that 1st level would work 1:1 in 2D perspective.

 

[Zutrax]

I loved Yooka Laylee and Mario 3D World both, but this is an incredibly reductive and ill informed claim.

Yooka Laylee has a small number of expansive levels that I can see people getting lost in or might feel like they're a bit empty at times. It has a wonky camera that swings all over the place. It controls poorly at times and has some frustrating and un-intuitive minigames that aren't indicative of how the game is normally played. The goal of Yooka Laylee is exploration and collection.

Mario 3D World has incredibly precise controls that always feel like they're responsive. The camera is mostly locked and gives a perspective it intends to give you without making you feel like you're fighting against it. The levels are all really short, precise, and well designed. The goal of Mario 3D world is obstacle tackling and completion of levels.

Yooka Laylee is what I'd consider an objectively lesser game in some design aspects, but it's also a completely different style of platformer. It's like comparing Halo and Gears of War just because they're both shooters. Making claims like this only hurts fans of Yooka Laylee by making them seem like they're in full on defensive fight or flight mode, just accept that the game isn't for everyone and explain the positive aspects of the game instead of bashing other great games to make a vapid point.

 

[Nesther]

LOL I see the Yooka-Laylee backers have reached the "I'm gonna insult a game YOU like" stage of review denial.

Hope you guys are able to reach acceptance soon.

Nah man, I love both games. Hoping for an eventual M3DW Switch port treatment. Can't get enough of good 3D platformers.

 

[Strings]

Something something Mario 3D World is actually the only Mario platformer I didn't enjoy whatsoever. An unpopular opinion, but /shrug.

 

[nkarafo]

You tell me what part of this works in a 2d perspective. This is literally the first thing you see in the first level.

I don't see why this scene wouldn't work with a 2D overhead perspective. This particular scene, of all others, doesn't even have any verticality or objects above other objects, or areas hidden by objects, etc. This particular screen would work, yes. 100% even.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

He said overhead 2D, so that 1st level would work 1:1 in 2D perspective.

But he said the entire level would work in a 2D overhead, so he's just wrong then.

 

[Cryoteck]

Well Shovel Knight isn't even 3D, but nobody complained

Shovel Knight was expertly crafted like 3d world, but also had multiple progression systems and light rpg mechanics to enhance the traditional linear obstacle course level design. 3d world's biggest shortcoming in my eyes was that it was only ever a linear obstacle course that only had a very small set of optional collectibles to spice up the gameplay experience. I had a lot of fun going from point A to point B due to the devs fine tuning of the gameplay itself but once I crossed the finish line I was more or less done playing and had no real desire to play again.

 

[hotcyder]

Opinions are flying all over the place so why not pitch in mine.

Saying that M3DW is archaic in the same way that YL is archaic doesn't fit.

Yooka Laylee was designed as a tribute/revival of Banjo Kazooie and platform games that followed a similar structure (3D Mini-Sandboxes that use multiple objectives and collecting items to unlock more 3D Mini-Sandboxes).

I have only played a few hours so far - but I can see where criticism can be levied.

While the graphics, sound and overall aesthetics look good, the game-play at times feel a little too old fashioned - where the multiple objective design hopes to be more than the sum of its parts. In the first level alone, I think the game-play involved to get key items (pagies) boiled down to:

Going to a certain place on the map (not much of a platform challenge)
Beating up some enemies
Finding three things to make one thing
Using an ability to shoot some cardboard cut outs
Using an ability to solve a simple match-up puzzle
Using an ability to race
Using an ability to race

None of these things felt particularly interesting enough - and built around the level they were set it made the map feel more like placed objectives then anything organic. The reliance on abilities to open up more objectives, and objectives that don't feel tailored to the main mechanics (mine carts, third person shooting) also feel like tinsel covering a bare structure.

The fact that there's a focus on a few large levels (that can be made larger) only exemplifies the fact that - with all its whistles removed - there's not much to it.

In comparison to 3D World - where there's no reliance on unlock-able abilities and gameplay gimmicks. Almost all of the levels are designed around a singular focus - moving from A to B, using only runs and jumps. With a simple formula, the levels can be anything - and not only that, but there can be a lot of them - all unique from one another in aesthetics and mechanics.

As a result - despite a simplified control scheme - the new Mario games feel a lot more fresh and innovative where something like Yooka Laylee does not.

Sometimes a game doesn't need to expand it's control in order to feel more modern - simplifying and streamlining shows a confidence in design and ideas.

 

[ViolentP]

I think making the argument of which of two games is worse is most telling about the product in question.

 

[VDenter]

Any of the later worlds were harder to 100 percent than anything in 64, which is never challenging at all. I could get all stars in that with my eyes closed. Almost.
And CR is worth it, greatest 3D platforming level ever.

Maybe its just me but did not find those levels hard at all. NSMBU was a more challenging game and playing 3D World after it especially the first six worlds just showed how incredibly easy the game was.

I wont call 64 challenging and replaying that game multiple times definitely diminishes some of the challenge. But still if i were to compare the games based on my first play through nothing in 3D World with the exception of the champions road comes close to levels like tick tock clock or rainbow ride.

 

[MrBadger]

But then the game feels restrictive. Its not free roaming anymore. It doesn't even need to be 3D as it plays pretty much like an isometric 2D game.

Also, i disagree that 3D Worlds camera ensures that the player is less likely to accidentally walk off a narrow ledge or get killed by something that the camera didn't properly show them. Most of the times i got killed was because i couldn't understand the distance between me and an enemy or because i couldn't see what's under Mario's body.

The rest of my post details why I don't think 'restriction' is a bad thing. So what if it's not free roaming? Does it need to be? The original Super Mario Bros doesn't let you move left, but the game is designed around that so it works.

Also I was saying the controls make it less likely for a player to walk off a ledge, not the camera. I'd like to hear a specific example of the issues you had with 3D World. Not saying it doesn't happen or I don't believe you, I just don't remember any specific instances and I played it through in co-op with people who don't tend to play games much.

 

[Puruzi]

Maybe its just me but did not find those levels hard at all. NSMBU was a more challenging game and playing 3D World after it especially the first six worlds just showed how incredibly easy the game was.

I wont call 64 challenging and replaying that game multiple times definitely diminishes some of the challenge. But still if i were to compare the games based on my first play through nothing in 3D World with the exception of the champions road comes close to levels like tick tock clock or rainbow ride.

Doesn't really work though because you're probably better at games now then you were when you first played 64.

 

[Aostia]

Mario 3D World WAS criticized a lot.
Before its release.
Due to its "archaincness".

Than people/reviewers played it.

 

[boiled goose]

In Mario 64 you need to manually adjust the camera almost all the time.

So, no.

So having to manually adjust the camera is what makes something 3d vs not 3d?

That's the argument. I'm kinda done here ..

 

[wild wild rice]

It's OK to not like 3D World and I won't argue with anyone's opinion in that regard.

But the game is basically flawlessly designed. It has its own set of restrictions (camera, controls, perspective, etc.) and the entire game is build around working within those restrictions. None of it feels archaic.

I think apparent simplicity sometimes masks what is actually well thought out, timeless and sleek design. In fact, due to its deceptive simplicity, it will probably age better than most 3D platformers that are more ambitious, but more flawed due to their ambitions.

 

[Moze]

You did not run through most of Sonic 1. That is not possible. Sonic 1 slows down your movement for platforming more than any of the other games in the series. This is flat out false.

Spyro 2-3 have a good camera for early 3D. The games have big open space but they are still linear point A to point B. Again, go actually play it. Only the first game struggles with camera and it is still pretty good

A good majority of Sonic 1 can be ran through. I absolutely did do this. The main hurdle was bumping into random enemies. The games were just badly designed and no that good. The jumping and movement feels off.

Stop telling me to play games I have played. The question is, have you played these games recently? The camera in Spyro is not good. I played the third one about 2 years ago and couldn't stand the camera. It's just awful.

 

[dampflokfreund]

Because it has the Mario name on it.

It was a fun and well crafted game, but in no way a special experience. Its literally 2D Mario in 3D and I'm just glad they ditched it and went back to the true 3D style of Mario games.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

I don't see why this scene wouldn't work with a 2D overhead perspective. This particular scene, of all others, doesn't even have any verticality or objects above other objects, or areas hidden by objects, etc. This particular screen would work, yes. 100% even.

How? No 2D game can replicate this or really most of 1-1 Can you honestly tell me most of 1-1 works in 2D the camera shifts so after a 2d game would not work.

 

[VDenter]

Like I said nope. Nothing in any of the 3D Mario games is harder than what you have the Star World, Flower ad Mushroom of 3D World. Go back and play all those games. You have zero idea what you are talking about if you are actually arguing anything in Galaxy 1, 2 or 64 is harder than 3D Worlds end game

On average 3D World is a much easier game than the other 3D Mario games. A couple of challenging extra levels that came after the credits does not change that most of the game is easy. Its not like it matters it wasn't even the biggest problem with the game to begin with.

 

[Jonneh3003]

Mario 3D World WAS criticized a lot.
Before its release.
Due to its "archaincness".

Then people/reviewers played it.

The GAF cycle.

 

[boiled goose]

Because it has the Mario name on it.

It was a fun and well crafted game, but in no way a special experience. Its literally 2D Mario in 3D and I'm just glad they ditched it and went back to the true 3D style of Mario games.

You can have nonlinear 2d games. Imagine a mario metroidvania.

2d vs 3d has nothing to do with linear vs sandbox.

 

[Chronospherics]

Tetris is arguably more 'archaic' than Superman 64.

With that said, 3D world is actually more mechanically complex, more sophisticated level design, more enemies, powerups etc.

He said overhead 2D, so that 1st level would work 1:1 in 2D perspective.

Things like climbing walls with cat powers wouldn't work well in 2D overhead at all.

 

[swarley64]

Yes calling Yooka-Lahore 'outdated' or 'archaic' doesn't make sense. It's probably just a lousy game.

 

[nkarafo]

So having to manually adjust the camera is what makes something 3d vs not 3d?

That's the argument. I'm kinda done here ..

What's so hard to understand?

Mario 64 and Sunshine forces you to adjust the camera because you constantly need to go "behind that area" or "under that area", etc. These games have more complex design and that means you need to manually adjust the camera for the best view pretty much all the time. You are mostly exploring in these games and less so platforming. So it's natural.

3D World is built in a way so a fixed overhead perspective is good enough 90% of the time, excluding the Toad levels ofc and some others maybe. It also helps that the levels are mostly made of blocks and cubes or other simple shapes. It's pretty efficient, simple, etc, so it's much easier to be ported in a 2D overhead format than something like Sunsine or 64.