Mass shooting at the Mandalay Bay Las Vegas; 58 dead, 500+ injured.

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Shadow Puppetry said:
O Reilly: Vegas shooting is the price of freedom.

Former Fox News host Bill O'Reilly called the mass shooting at a Las Vegas music festival "the price of freedom" in a blog post on his website Monday.

"Public safety demands logical gun laws but the issue is so polarizing and emotional that little will be accomplished as there is no common ground," O'Reilly wrote in the post. "The NRA and its supporters want easy access to weapons, while the left wants them banned."

"This is the price of freedom," he continued. "Violent nuts are allowed to roam free until they do damage, no matter how threatening they are."

"The Second Amendment is clear that Americans have a right to arm themselves for protection," O'Reilly wrote. "Even the loons."
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At least he's honest about this.

I don't think that's why the second amendment originally existed (it existed because we didn't want a standing federal army and needed to be able to defend the country in some way), but the way it's interpreted right now he's right. If we define gun ownership as a right, even the fucking loons get guns. Full stop.

Now, that's why we need to rethink gun ownership as a right. It shouldn't be a right, because it means even the loons get guns. The loons get guns, and the not yet loony have guns ready for when something happens and they're suddenly on the side of the loons. If It's a right then the good people get guns, the bad people get guns, and the people who will become bad people get guns. We need to accept that is the consequences of our beliefs. We need to keep saying it until people realize that it's the price of "freedom." Once we realize the price, then we can talk about whether that's acceptable. To me it isn't, but I don't think that's the conversation we've ever had here.

Audioboxer said:
You see, even if you want to make a nuanced argument for the debate around being able to own guns, it should never include "even the loons". You can own a shotgun in the UK, but it requires an extensive background check, referees (people the police speak to on your behalf to ask questions about you) and you have to renew your license every so often.

https://www.gov.uk/shotgun-and-firearm-certificates

Being a "loon" would get you ruled out.
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The issue is that if guns are a right, then there is no room for a nuanced argument. Bill's correct here. We can't take freedom of speech away from the "loons" here. Rights don't get taken away like that.

Guns shouldn't be a right, though.
 
wow.

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electricpirate said:
There are also gun mods that can skirt those laws, the results probably don't perform that well in a firefight, but could raise the danger level of these guns.

IT also seems like you can buy full auto kits, but it's illegal to actually use them? Or do they put the regulation at the point of sale on the mod?
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It's illegal to even have fully automatic seers so they are illegal to sell but I'm sure you can find them on the internets.
 
MBison said:
Oh sorry, his rationalization disguised as a winky face makes it all ok. I get it now, hilarious humor! Let's all laugh about murder!
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Again, there is a distinction between 'serious' and 'hilarious'. He was being facetious in order to make a point about the extremes GOP/NRA members will go to when defending the 2nd amendment, and that may even include the murder of their own families.

Whatever, he's banned now.
 
BernardoOne said:
Considering the ridiculous military worship Vs the complete lack of action against gun ownership laws that kill thousands of people every year... I'd say it's accurate.
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I disagree, and there is no way we can really establish it one way or another. Billions of dollars goes to help people in the U.S. and in other countries around the world. While gun violence is high in the U.S. compared to other countries....there are many MANY other causes of death that rank much higher. Ones you could easily say "well, the U.S. cares more about falling from ladders than they do about helping each other."

Its tragic, don't get me wrong, and I understand your sentiment and what you are trying to get at.
 
LiK said:
17 guns in hotel room. Jesus

https://twitter.com/AP/status/914961991999135746
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Huh, looks like there's a gun show in town on October 7th and 8th. I'm assuming this would look less suspicious under those pretenses?

StoOgE said:
I know personally at least 30-40 people with at least 17 guns. Some with upwards of 50.

Acquiring large quantities of firearms all at once is not unusual at all in America.
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JetBlackPanda said:
I hate to do this but I know 10-12 people that have well over 30+ guns in their homes.
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Sometimes I'm made painfully aware of the bubble I live in. I know one guy who owns 3 guns, and two of them are black powder.
 
UberTag said:
Americans need to arm themselves and put out a hitlist on gun lobbyists and the NRA.
Shoot them all dead. And their families dead. Then, maybe they'll think free access to firearms is a bad idea. But probably not.
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Call me crazy, but I think passing drastic campaign finance reform where organizations like the NRA and their lobbyists couldn't donate to or influence lawmakers would do a much better job, along with the added perk of not fucking killing anyone.
 
jabuseika said:
How does a single individual acquire 17 guns without raising any alarms...
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I know personally at least 30-40 people with at least 17 guns. Some with upwards of 50.

Acquiring large quantities of firearms all at once is not unusual at all in America.
 
Much like pretty much everyone else outside the US, I'll never even begin to understand the attitude toward guns that is held by a large swathe of Americans. You combine that attitude towards guns along with what is generally a violent culture and you end up with this.

I just wonder if it's ever going to be possible to even institute any form of change without a significant, nation altering event (another major war, government overthrow, civil war, etc, etc) because the attitudes towards gun rights are so strongly and deeply held. I can't even imagine the violence that would occur if Congress voted tomorrow to put in place significant gun control reforms. Even the low hanging fruit laws (background checks, closing loopholes, etc) would bring out some nuts.

Realistically it's probably going to take like 50 years to do. Start now. Start with the low hanging fruit and just keep hammering away.
 
StoOgE said:
I know personally at least 30-40 people with at least 17 guns. Some with upwards of 50.

Acquiring large quantities of firearms all at once is not unusual at all in America.
Click to expand...

JetBlackPanda said:
I hate to do this but I know 10-12 people that have well over 30+ guns in their homes.
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I bet a bunch of other GAFers could come out and say the same. Makes me fucking sick to my stomach. Why does any home need a fucking armory of that scale?
 
LiK said:
Not illegal in NV on how many guns you can buy. No limits apparently. It's just crazy how many guns he had with him.
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"I need 17 guns for self-defence"

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Maybe some limits on rifle ownership numbers should be a start. It's sad though, people can keep thinking of all these compromisable "starts" for gun reform, instead of outright bans, but every one would just be shot down.
 
legend166 said:
Much like pretty much everyone else outside the US, I'll never even begin to understand the attitude toward guns that is held by a large swathe of Americans. You combine that attitude towards guns along with what is generally a violent culture and you end up with this.

I just wonder if it's ever going to be possible to even institute any form of change without a significant, nation altering event (another major war, government overthrow, civil war, etc, etc) because the attitudes towards gun rights are so strongly and deeply held. I can't even imagine the violence that would occur if Congress voted tomorrow to put in place significant gun control reforms. Even the low hanging fruit laws (background checks, closing loopholes, etc) would bring out some nuts.

Realistically it's probably going to take like 50 years to do. Start now. Start with the low hanging fruit and just keep hammering away.
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The idea of gun ownership as MY RIGHTS has been ingrained in the heads of people for hundreds of years. It's legitimately revolves around a combat fantasy akin to believing you're going to beat 5 people up at once with your kung-fu skills. Every gun owner I know has this shared hero fantasy where someone, somewhere is coming to get them. Ironically, this fantasy tends to revolve around people coming for their guns.
 
So this guy was a 64 year old millionaire that made his money through real estate and wingnuts like Alex Jones are claiming he was antifa. The desperation is through the roof.
 
Absolutely sick. So sad.

A guy a work with...his daughter and her boyfriend were at the concert. Both were hit with bullets, but are alive. Absolutely awful.
 
GetLucky said:
Wat. That's kinda crazy!
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Grow up in the country and it's not unusual. I would say on my street growing up 80% of the households had guns. 50% had multiple guns.

Almost all of my family on my mom and dads side both and my in-laws on my mother-in law side the gun safe in home percentage is 70% if not higher.

If you start talking about friends of friends or family friends I "know" but am not friendly with I Could probably get to 100+ people that own at least 5 fire arms.

Of those i would say 20% are at least somewhat "liberal" and four of them were hard-core Bernie supporters.

Gun rights cuts across party lines in the country.
 
Pai Pai Master said:
I bet a bunch of other GAFers could come out and say the same. Makes me fucking sick to my stomach. Why does any home need a fucking armory of that scale?
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I own multiple firearms because my house is 40+ minutes (via car) from the closest police station. I've had to use them to both defend myself and to shoot wildlife that's attacked my animals. Where do you live?
 
maladroit said:
I own multiple firearms because my house is 40+ minutes (via car) from the closest police station. I've had to use them to both defend myself and to shoot wildlife that's attacked my animals. Where do you live?
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How many guns though? There's nothing wrong with defending your home...but if you own more than 5-10 guns I honestly cannot fathom why.

I live in Atlanta FWIW
 
StoOgE said:
Grow up in the country and it's not unusual. I would say on my street growing up 80% of the households had guns. 50% had multiple guns.

Almost all of my family on my mom and dads side both and my in-laws on my mother-in law side the gun safe in home percentage is 70% if not higher.

If you start talking about friends of friends or family friends I "know" but am not friendly with I Could probably get to 100+ people that own at least 5 fire arms.
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My stepdad probably has 100 or more. He keeps loaded weapons in socks around the house. My friends weren't allowed to come over at one point because they would find guns around.
 
Terrible.

How many more mass shootings does it take for meaningful change to take place in this country? Years and years of lawmakers just sitting on their hands, working with the pro-gun/NRA lobby. Just despicable.
 
Mahonay said:
People in this thread who still suggest stricter gun regulation isn't needed are straight up being disingenuous.
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Stricter regulation isn't going to take away the guns from the people who already have small arsenals. That's what makes me feel hopeless about "regulation" moving forward.
 
Freewheelin' said:
I think there's certainly a distinction to be made between a terrorist and terrorism. I think you can be the former without subscribing to the latter. Not sure if I'd be able to articulate why, but if we're going by dictionary definition:

a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

It's hard to argue anything on this scale isn't political. It's never just random. This is a motivated, planned attack with assault rifles. He spread terror; to me he's a terrorist.
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That's a fair point, and if somebody were to take such a stance I would not object, but as of now his status as "lone wolf" seems rather valid since we have no information regarding ideological affiliations.

Honestly, my issue (perhaps lost in my ranting), is that people are more interested in putting these situations into categories than to actually examine what has taken place. It should not matter if the perpetrator is white or black or anything in between. Why did this happen? What was the motivating factor? How can it be prevented? (!Gun Control!)

Saying stuff like "He's a refugee so he can't be _________" or "He's white so he must be _______" seems incredibly counter-productive to me.
 
Angry Grimace said:
My stepdad probably has 100 or more. He keeps loaded weapons in socks around the house. My friends weren't allowed to come over at one point because they would find guns around.
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What?! No offence, but that really should be the kind of thing you can report to someone, whether it be local police or local government and a person potentially be declared as unfit to own guns.
 
MBison said:
Going to keep quoting this post until he's banned.
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With caping for police brutality and shitting on Carmen Yulín Cruz for standing in front of a few pallets of emergency supplies in your post history I'm not sure now is the time to call attention to the stupid shit other people post on this forum.
 
maladroit said:
I own multiple firearms because my house is 40+ minutes (via car) from the closest police station. I've had to use them to both defend myself and to shoot wildlife that's attacked my animals. Where do you live?
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Are animal hordes attacking your house? Where do you live?
 
crooked spin said:
Stricter regulation is going to take away the guns from the people who already have small arsenals. That's what makes me feel hopeless about "regulation" moving forward.
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True change would require a constitutional amendment followed by a nationwide disarmament program (trade-in/buyout/seizing). I have no expectation of anything close to that happening in my lifetime.
 
maladroit said:
I own multiple firearms because my house is 40+ minutes (via car) from the closest police station. I've had to use them to both defend myself and to shoot wildlife that's attacked my animals. Where do you live?
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There's an argument that you only need guns because bad guys also have guns.
 
Why would you even want 10+ guns? I guess if you’re a hunter and just keep upgrading, or if you collect them, but stuff like that rings an alarm, even with those two ‘excuses’

Just a terrible day. Hope the motive becomes clear, so the full story is there, but probably another case of someone with clear mental illness getting their hands on multiple weapons. Awful. RIP to those who passed
 
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