Esppiral
Member
PSX games run most of the time ar 512*224
That is a way higher horizontal resolution it outputs at 240i but most games are rendered at PS2 resolutions....
Tomb Raider II is being ported to Sega Saturn by a fan
- Thread starter Togh
- Start date
That is a way higher horizontal resolution it outputs at 240i but most games are rendered at PS2 resolutions....
Horseganador
Member
I don't know how Tomb Raider 2 will play on Saturn, but in the first Tomb Raider the difference in favor of PSX is huge, up to double the performance in favor of PSX (15 vs 30fps), even on PSX it sounds better.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
RAIDEN1
Member
Daytona for the Saturn looks hideous with it's glaring pop-up, and mesh transparency, and just highlighted the difference in power between the arcade game and the Saturn..
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
Releasing a 3D game on the Sega Saturn was like running a free marketing campaign for the Sony PlayStation.
I think this TR2 port will help some Sega fans stop this myth of hidden power. I like the Sega Saturn because of Street Fighter and the controller, unfortunately, Sega was at its lowest creative level back then.
RetroGamingUK
Member
No, what you're seeing g is a reduce colour pallet compared to PlayStation which makes textures appear blocky and colour banding to be visible on Lara's skin.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Indeed
This new version exhibits the same graphical and performance flaws as the Saturn original.
Whether that's due to them using the same engine or just hitting the same limitations as Core did is unclear.
I went back and played the Saturn demo a few months back, the crackly sound effects were quite jarring.
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RAIDEN1
Member
Yeah well it's little wonder why they were at their lowest creative level when you consider all the crap behind the scenes in getting the console out in the first place..i.e the infighting, they took their eye of the ball when no such thing was the case when it came to the development and release of the Mega-Genesis..
SkylineRKR
Member
No, what you're seeing g is a reduce colour pallet compared to PlayStation which makes textures appear blocky and colour banding to be visible on Lara's skin.
You'd see these differences in RE too. And I prefered the Saturn characters to be honest. There is more detail in the faces, and it looks more gamey.
Saturn Chris looked more beefy and colorful. I kind of favored it. RE I found better on Saturn, it had faster load times and battle mode. At the cost of being a full year later, ofcourse.
RetroGamingUK
Member
You'd see these differences in RE too. And I prefered the Saturn characters to be honest. There is more detail in the faces, and it looks more gamey.
Saturn Chris looked more beefy and colorful. I kind of favored it. RE I found better on Saturn, it had faster load times and battle mode. At the cost of being a full year later, ofcourse.
For some reason Jill's face looks a garbled mess on Saturn as per Lara.
The textures and lighting/shading are definitely worse on Saturn
There was a myth spread back in the day that Saturn had better backgrounds, again proven false.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Lee Nutter of Official Sega Saturn Magazine can be thanked for the long standing myth that Saturn Resi had better backgrounds than PS1
Lee Nutter was also the one who, in the very same issue, hyped Sega Touring Car up as a "Sega Rally beater".
Lee Nutter was also the one who, in the very same issue, hyped Sega Touring Car up as a "Sega Rally beater".
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Load times were easy worse on Saturn too
It's great that we finally have the likes of Wobbling Pixels and DF Retro to disprove the copious amounts of bullshit printed in Sega magazines back in the day
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Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
They lacked strategic vision.
The challenge: ''How can we compete with a console with a GPU twice as powerful ?''
Sega's solution was to fake the background and floor on 3d games with 2D planes using vdp2.
The problem: This compromises the rendering of geometry with relief and limits artistic vision.
What should they have done? Never allow a 3D game made for the Saturn to be released on the PlayStation.
Increase the production of games like Guardian Heroes to an industrial level. Just as the PS1 received dozens of RE1 clones, the Saturn could have received Guardian Heroes clones. A strategically minded person would know that competing in 3D was madness. Note Raiden1 when it comes to 3D games, the Saturn has worse textures, lighting effects, shadows, and frame rates than the PS1. Everything that makes a 3D game enjoyable is simply worse.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Sega didn't have enough leeway to get third person exclusives like this.
As for 2D games the likes of Guardian Heroes were total flops in the west.
The best selling UK Saturn games were…
1. Sega Rally
2. Tomb Raider
3. Sega Worldwide Soccer 97
4. Virtua Fighter 2
5. NiGHTs: into Dreams
…all 3D
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
So what do you suggest? ''How can we compete with a console that has a gpu twice as powerful?''
cireza
Member
The differences in Resident Evil are anecdotal at best. The Saturn version runs fine and looks very close to the PS1 version. Everything is overblown as soon as it is about making an argument against the Saturn lol.
cireza
Member
The real question is "How can we compete against a company with infinite marketing money?"
Answer : "We can't."
BiohazardX95
Member
Wonder why there are people obsessed with this, when there are modern and much better ways to play these Masterpieces.
RetroGamingUK
Member
I love retro games and always want the authentic experience. Nothing beats playing on original hardware with all its quirks.
Modern remasters are great for allowing new audiences to easily discover older games, but they're not for me.
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Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Because old hardware is cool and new hardware is sterile and gay.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Why are you guys making this a console war thread? Why do you care if tomb raider 2 is on Saturn. Did anyone say it was better than the ps1 version?
Esppiral
Member
Bullshit
RetroGamingUK
Member
Do you even know the meaning of the word anecdotal?
I provide screenshots and videos and the best you can do is write them off as "anecdotal"?
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diffusionx
Gold Member
Parazels
Member
No. The new mith is that if one game developer can achieve such impressive results, just imagine what a big development team could do!
RetroGamingUK
Member
Ah, another example of Saturn games typically having lower colour depth compared to PlayStation
More Official Sega Saturn Magazine lies exposed by John Linneman too.
This time it's his current boss, Richard Leadbetter, responsible for the review
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SkylineRKR
Member
I liked the Saturn version of RE more and to me the load times felt shorter. Battle mode was cool, and the very first mercs mode. It had a gold Tyrant.
Its true SSM did lie a lot. I liked the magazine, they were also critical at other times and bashed stuff. This is what lost them the license.
But yeah, they pushed a lot of narratives of Saturn versions being better than PSX, like Symphony of the Night. Which isn't true. I've fully completed the map twice or so, but its worse than the PS version. It just had more content. Wipeout 2097 also isn't as good and lacks the PSX OST. Saturn versions of software were generally worse.
There were some outliers, mainly 2D games. But even there the PSX sometimes prevailed, such as MMX3, Dodonpachi, Castlevania. With RAM expansion, something Sony didn't release, Saturn games like XvsSF and Vampire Savior were basically next-gen. Its only from Dreamcast onward that consoles could natively match this on screen.
Its true SSM did lie a lot. I liked the magazine, they were also critical at other times and bashed stuff. This is what lost them the license.
But yeah, they pushed a lot of narratives of Saturn versions being better than PSX, like Symphony of the Night. Which isn't true. I've fully completed the map twice or so, but its worse than the PS version. It just had more content. Wipeout 2097 also isn't as good and lacks the PSX OST. Saturn versions of software were generally worse.
There were some outliers, mainly 2D games. But even there the PSX sometimes prevailed, such as MMX3, Dodonpachi, Castlevania. With RAM expansion, something Sony didn't release, Saturn games like XvsSF and Vampire Savior were basically next-gen. Its only from Dreamcast onward that consoles could natively match this on screen.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Ah, another example of Saturn games typically having lower colour depth compared to PlayStation
More Official Sega Saturn Magazine lies exposed by John Linneman too.
This time it's his current boss, Richard Leadbetter, responsible for the review
It's not color depth it's compression. The Saturn textures for wipe out are heavily compressed and low res where as the PlayStation can decompress textures on the fly for each draw. It's one of ps1s many strengths.
bighugeguns
Member
You guys should all team up and create a fake discussion website / digital console war monument where AI agents fight about ancient consoles forever, this shit is awesome.
You mean the full screen dithering the PS1 version is applying? Apparently that's only a crime when the Saturn does it for transparencies.Ah, another example of Saturn games typically having lower colour depth compared to PlayStation
RetroGamingUK
Member
What lost Emap was the licence was Sega wanting more of a lifestyle/lads mag with staff visiting student's unions and bars getting the public involved.
Dennis offered that, Emap offered more of the same.
Neither deserved it though, Future's DCUK was the best by far but Sony didn't want the publishers of Official PlayStation magazine making the official Dreamcast one.
RetroGamingUK
Member
You mean the full screen dithering the PS1 version is applying? Apparently that's only a crime when the Saturn does it for transparencies.
Did you even watch the video?
And don't compare dithering to mesh transparencies.
You posted an image not a video.
And yes I can and will compare them.
cireza
Member
Because that's what they are.
What are you trying to prove here ? That RE was amazing on PS1 and shit on Saturn ? The differences are so minor, and the game so perfectly playable, that nobody gave a shit back then. Who thought "Oh my god that Saturn version is awful!" ? Nobody. You can have preferences, fine, but these two games are close enough that the differences are irrelevant.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Sega Saturn is the only console I've ever been bullied for owning, "Shiturn" being the most common jibe at school.
And trust me, most of this was down to just how badly multiplats were on Saturn, people were more than well aware of that back then, mags were constantly pointing out Saturn's inferiority.
But yeah, it was all down to the marketing innit.
RetroGamingUK
Member
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cireza
Member
Bro you were bullied for having a Saturn ? Because multiplats were bad ?
This is so sad !
So that's why now you have decided to take your revenge !
Well since you told me your story, I am going to tell you mine. We were several friends having a Saturn at school and we all loved our console and games, and didn't buy a PS1 because we were happy with our Saturns. We bought the Dreamcast when it launched though. And nobody was bullied, but we were going to a normal college and high-school.
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Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
The moderators notified me. Anyone who wants to talk about things other than TR2 can use my thread.
I won't post here again, so don't quote me.
I won't post here again, so don't quote me.
And I replied about the screenshot, but I can get much more obtuse.
But I'm just messing with you, I know what video it is, it's the old Wipeout comparison from the PS1 vs Saturn faceoff, Saturn has half the color depth on some textures (4bpp v 8bpp) because Saturn since it's primitives are just distorted sprites hence you cannot do proper UV mapping as you can with PS1 and prior GPUs, so textures have to be stored in RAM in the way they are going to be mapped which makes it necessary to lower detail because of the redundancy, but overall color depth in the image is comparable. And sticking on topic, it's likely this why the "port" TR2 might have memory issues on it, that and the split memory pool between VDP1 and VDP2.
What's funny is you comparing about color depth (without specifing texture btw) when the PS1 on that screenshot absolutely murders most of the detail by dithering the entire image from top to bottom, something pretty much every game on it does. But again it's only a crime when Saturn does something that lowers image quality, when the PS1 fills the entire screen with eye piercing dithering or awful texture warping, it's apperently fine, we can only point out instances where the Saturn does poorly.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Bro you were bullied for having a Saturn ? Because multiplats were bad ?
This is so sad !
So that's why now you have decided to take your revenge !
Well since you told me your story, I am going to tell you mine. We were several friends having a Saturn at school and we all loved our console and games, and didn't buy a PS1 because we were happy with our Saturns. We bought the Dreamcast when it launched though. And nobody was bullied, but we were going to a normal college and high-school.
Cool story
Fact is everyone viewed Saturn as a vastly inferior 3D machine and quite rightly so, at a time they were craving 3D games with great graphics across many genres.
Apart from a handful of games that made good use of VDP2 the Saturn, in terms of 3D, delivered mostly ugly poor performing games.
Why am I bothered? Because Dreamcast was great (still my favourite console of all time) and Saturn had killed Sega's reputation by then.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Will you admit the vast majority of 3D multiplats ran worse on Saturn?
Yes, why?
RetroGamingUK
Member
Then you can surely see that most of the time ,when comparing, people are going to point out where the Saturn does poorly.
WipEout was a huge release here in the UK and the attention paid to the inferior Saturn port had a huge effect.
People tend to counter argue with VDP2 assisted titles like Mass Destruction. I can assure you no one gave a shite about the likes of Mass Destruction.
It was the big big titles where Saturn was lacking (WipEout, WipEout 2097, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil) and people certainly noticed and made purchasing decisions based on that.
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Fair, but at the same time you say this:
But we shouldn't point out the awful dithering? As you said, we can only spot much of the differences in a modern lens, I doubt many were noticing the lower color depth on texture back in the day.
The framerate maybe, but not 4bpp v 8bpp.
I doubt many would point out Mass Destruction since the Saturn port was never released.
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Team Andromeda
Member
Paul Douglas told EDGE mag less than 3% of TR code was specific to Saturn.
And it's getting boring now, even the PS fans know the Saturn version was rushed but are just just trolling...
That's 30 years ago, let it go man *rollseye*
RetroGamingUK
Member
We certainly got Mass Destruction in the UK, not that it garnered much attention.
PlayStation's dithering was a far more subtle effect than Saturn's jarring mesh transparencies. I used my PS1 on a CRT with an RGB cable which meant dithering wasn't noticeable.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Fair play, but I never want to hear you complain about PS2 again.
Fair considering it was nearly 30 years ago too?
nkarafo
Member
Not sure if you are serious with this kind of posting.
Isn't the Saturn supposed to be the console that didn't reach it's "full potential"? Isn't that what all you hardcore Saturn fans are saying all the time?
Well, the PS1 didn't have that issue. From day one, they could make good use of the hardware and produce good looking games and after that, some really impressive stuff later on. I'm sure you agree the PS1 reached 100% of it's potential since it was the easiest to develop for, had more developers working for it and lived the longest life compared to it's competitors.
So what's the issue then? What do you expect the PS fan community to do if there's nothing else to squeeze from the console?
It's only natural for the Saturn to have a more active homebrew scene nowadays, if it was indeed not squeezed properly in it's lifetime, plus it also has an army of disappointed fans who want to prove it could do better. And the same exact thing also applies to the N64 scene, which also had a bad run when it comes to "squeezing it's hardware" and that's why it also has a very strong homebrew presence nowadays producing impressive demos and games.
The PS1 has nothing else to offer. It's fans were satisfied and moved on.
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