Support NeoGAF

[bitbydeath]

You are speaking in absolutes when Microsoft themselves are billing it as a console, lol.
So bc I can buy pc games and run them via Gamehub on my phone, does that make it a pc?

And yes, I DO know what it means for Microsoft, it means that if you want to access said stores, you'll need a $ubscription.

You can't run PC games natively on your phone, only mobile games.

 

[viveks86]

It does though, and no, I don't agree.

"Magnus will be used for console and pc, but only the console has BC"
This is pretty clear, but i will break it down anyways...
The Rog Ally X is an OEM pc with Xbox branding, but does not have Magnus and thusly does not include BC. Right?
Right.

The Rog Ally X 2, if it were to be made, could have a Magnus chip and thusly have BC...But IT WOULD STILL BE AN OEM PC. They, Asus, could, and likely WILL make a desktop pc with a Magnus chip, and guess what, it would be an OEM pc and it would have BC.

That's possible, but what if Ally X2 doesn't have BC, despite using Magnus, due to licensing issues? Do you have evidence that points to the contrary? And no, Lisa and Sarah's vague PR declaration that everything would do everything doesn't cut it.

 

[coffinbirth]

That's possible, but what if Ally X2 doesn't have BC, despite using Magnus, due to licensing issues? Do you have evidence that points to the contrary? And no Lisa and Sarah's vague declaration that everything would do everything doesn't cut it.

Isn't that the entire point?
Microsoft doesn't need AMD to make an Xbox branded pc without BC.

 

[viveks86]

Isn't that the entire point?
Microsoft doesn't need AMD to make an Xbox branded pc without BC.

Intuitively at a high level, yes. That would seem like the point. But what Microsoft wants and what the publishers want may not align, even if the hardware is there. They aren't partnering with AMD just to handle BC. There's an untapped prebuilt market that they can approach with standardized hardware with several exclusive software features built on such standardization. Think prebuilt graphics settings, optimizations, shaders etc. The Xbox PC has potential to differentiate itself from other prebuilts, regardless of BC. Longer term, they could try to grow Play Anywhere to a point where BC licensing restrictions become largely irrelevant to the mainstream audience.

But due to licensing, the near term outcome may still end up being some non-ideal, potentially confusing, patchwork of support across different classes of devices. Until Ally X 2 is announced with BC features, or the lack thereof, we won't actually know how this plays out. Meanwhile, insiders are claiming it's not as rosy as intuition and logic dictates and that BC features will not make it to the OEM PCs. We can choose to either believe them or not, but I don't see an inconsistency in the claim itself.

 

[Felessan]

$800 PS6, wont cost less with PS5 Pro already on the market at $700

PS4Pro exit market just before PS5 launched
PS5Pro as being mostly inferior product to PS6 and sold for profit will most likely follow the trend.

 

[coffinbirth]

Intuitively at a high level, yes. That would seem like the point. But what Microsoft wants and what the publishers want may not align, even if the hardware is there. They aren't partnering with AMD just to handle BC. There's an untapped prebuilt market that they can approach with standardized hardware with several exclusive software features built on such standardization. Think prebuilt graphics settings, optimizations, shaders etc. The Xbox PC has potential to differentiate itself from other prebuilts, regardless of BC. Longer term, they could try to grow Play Anywhere to a point where BC licensing restrictions become largely irrelevant to the mainstream audience.

But due to licensing, the near term outcome may still end up being some non-ideal, potentially confusing, patchwork of support across different classes of devices. Until Ally X 2 is announced with BC features, or the lack thereof, we won't actually know how this plays out. Meanwhile, insiders are claiming it's not as rosy as intuition and logic dictates and that BC features will not make it to the OEM PCs. We can choose to either believe them or not, but I don't see an inconsistency in the claim itself.

Again, they wouldn't need to PARTNER with AMD to achieve that.
You need to stop moving the goal posts around here.
Lest we forget this is flying in the face of the original post. So does Kepler think that Magnus has BC on pc or no? I'm not tagging him every time his name is brought up, and I suspect he will clarify things later, but as it stands, both things have been said by multiple insiders and leakers.
Magnus=BC is the predominant language being used, including by AMD, however nebulous you deem that is on you until more information is shared by the actual companies in question.

I agree with you that all of those things could shake out in that way, but it was never my contention either.
Ironically this all started by noting that basing numbers off of guesses of approximations is bad math when multiple variables are still unknown.

 

[viveks86]

So does Kepler think that Magnus has BC on pc or no?

No. And he has made no contradictory claims on that aspect afaik. That was all I intended to point out. I'm more skeptical of the AMD announcement and how that relates to Magnus-based devices in the next 2 years (they may be referring to the longer term), while you are more skeptical of the insider claims. I don't trust a suit on camera and you don't trust a faceless stranger on the internet. Both points of view are defensible? Therein lies the crux of our debate.

 

[coffinbirth]

No. And he has made no contradictory claims on that aspect afaik. That was all I intended to point out. I'm more skeptical of the AMD announcement and how that relates to Magnus-based devices in the next 2 years (they may be referring to the longer term), while you are more skeptical of the insider claims. I don't trust a suit on camera and you don't trust a faceless stranger on the internet. Both points of view are defensible? Therein lies the crux of our debate.

That's why he asked me when he said that Magnus DIDN'T have BC. That is a contradiction. That is the point.

 

[viveks86]

That's why he asked me when he said that Magnus DIDN'T have BC. That is a contradiction. That is the point.

No. He asked you because you didn't make the distinction in your post between Magnus console and Magnus PC. You just said Magnus and expected everyone to understand. The "next Xbox" is a Magnus "console" built by MS. Not a Magnus "PC" built by an OEM. adamsapple tried to point that out earlier and you didn't seem to catch that. Kepler believes Magnus console will have BC, but Magnus PC will not have BC. You just used "Magnus", which around here generally refers to the "console". Nothing is known about the PC other than them using Magnus as well. It's rarely even talked about and for many, this other device doesn't even exist at the moment. There's no spec leak, confirmed OEM for it or anything at all. The $1200 price does NOT refer to it either.

The only thing everyone understands and agrees is there will at least be one device made and sold by Xbox. And the general consensus, Kepler included, is that device WILL have BC. The other Magnus PCs may not. Kepler claims they won't. But it's up to us to take his word for it or not, until there are further details

 

[Felessan]

Again, they wouldn't need to PARTNER with AMD to achieve that.

Because MS have to partner with AMD to have BC
But it doesn't mean that every device using Magnus chip will have a BC. There are some implications for it to happen
There (rumored) will be console xbox PC which is console restricted environment with some PC functionality (side-loading of other stores) and it only work one way - Steam can be run on this console but console Xbox store can't be run on PC with just Win11, turning off BC

Its what was discussed and it's what expected from next Xbox - there will be a ~console~ with some PC features and BC, but general Win PC based on Magnus will not have BC even though hardware is capable for it.

 

[coffinbirth]

No. He asked you because you didn't make the distinction in your post between Magnus console and Magnus PC. You just said Magnus and expected everyone to understand. The "next Xbox" is a Magnus "console" built by MS. Not a Magnus "PC" built by an OEM. adamsapple tried to point that out earlier and you didn't seem to catch that. Kepler believes Magnus console will have BC, but Magnus PC will not have BC. You just used "Magnus", which around here generally refers to the "console". Nothing is known about the PC other than them using Magnus as well. It's rarely even talked about and for many, this other device doesn't even exist at the moment. There's no spec leak, confirmed OEM for it or anything at all. The $1200 price does NOT refer to it either.

The only thing everyone understands and agrees is there will at least be one device made and sold by Xbox. And the general consensus, Kepler included, is that device WILL have BC. The other Magnus PCs may not. Kepler claims they won't. But it's up to us to take his word for it or not, until there are further details

I said Magnus APU, and referred to potential different skus and form factors for OEM later. But we were discussing the console pricing, so I see the confusion on the one hand...
But he obviously never said the console wouldn't be BC. Nobody would think the Xbox console wouldn't play Xbox games.
We have people here claiming to be Microsoft insiders saying it will and AMD insiders saying it won't, so I don't think any of this is anything but moot until word comes down from up high.

 

[coffinbirth]

Because MS have to partner with AMD to have BC
But it doesn't mean that every device using Magnus chip will have a BC. There are some implications for it to happen
There (rumored) will be console xbox PC which is console restricted environment with some PC functionality (side-loading of other stores) and it only work one way - Steam can be run on this console but console Xbox store can't be run on PC with just Win11, turning off BC

Its what was discussed and it's what expected from next Xbox - there will be a ~console~ with some PC features and BC, but general Win PC based on Magnus will not have BC even though hardware is capable for it.

Based on what documentation?

 

[mckmas8808]

You are speaking in absolutes when Microsoft themselves are billing it as a console, lol.
So bc I can buy pc games and run them via Gamehub on my phone, does that make it a pc?

And yes, I DO know what it means for Microsoft, it means that if you want to access said stores, you'll need a $ubscription.

Oh so you think they'll make you get Gamepass in order to access Steam on Xbox Magnus? No way MS is that stupid

 

[coffinbirth]

You can't run PC games natively on your phone, only mobile games.

I can play a massive chunk of my pc library natively on my phone via GameHub and emulate every console, arcade and micro computer game from 1977 up to and including Nintendo Switch, lmao.

 

[NickFire]

Oh so you think they'll make you get Gamepass in order to access Steam on Xbox Magnus? No way MS is that stupid

I hope they don't but am guessing they do just that. I can't see them making a steam machine for just a hardware profit.

 

[coffinbirth]

Oh so you think they'll make you get Gamepass in order to access Steam on Xbox Magnus? No way MS is that stupid

Isn't gatekeeping features behind subscription paywalls expected at this point?

 

[KeplerL2]

Again, they wouldn't need to PARTNER with AMD to achieve that.
You need to stop moving the goal posts around here.
Lest we forget this is flying in the face of the original post. So does Kepler think that Magnus has BC on pc or no? I'm not tagging him every time his name is brought up, and I suspect he will clarify things later, but as it stands, both things have been said by multiple insiders and leakers.
Magnus=BC is the predominant language being used, including by AMD, however nebulous you deem that is on you until more information is shared by the actual companies in question.

I agree with you that all of those things could shake out in that way, but it was never my contention either.
Ironically this all started by noting that basing numbers off of guesses of approximations is bad math when multiple variables are still unknown.

I still believe only the 1st party "Xbox Series X2" will have BC, while the "ASUS ROG Xbox PC" will not, even though both are using the same hardware.

 

[Felessan]

Based on what documentation?

Legal implications of publishing contracts. MS should have both publishing rights on PC and legal approval of cross-buy (play anywhere). They currently can't allow you to play purchased games on Xbox thats also available on MS PC store if it's not under play anywhere.

MS already in a bind now as they have rights to sell both packages but until publisher explicitly approve it they can't transfer right to run game between platforms. Having hardware BC, which is mostly for some older stuff, will change nothing.

 

[Starbuck2907]

Microsoft only have loyal fans left who are willing to pay for the premium hardware and Steam integration. They will likely release other Xbox branded or licensed devices a few months after launch, so there probably will eventually be a cheaper "Xbox" to buy.

I expect Sony to keep $600 or depending on the economy, test $700.

 

[coffinbirth]

I still believe only the 1st party "Xbox Series X2" will have BC, while the "ASUS ROG Xbox PC" will not, even though both are using the same hardware.

Thanks for the clarification.
Since we are in the area of speculation here, what is the logic behind assuming this? Because my understanding is that if a piece of AMD hardware with the prerequisite modules, in this case Magnus, running Xbox OS launches BC code via a VM, legally speaking, isn't it functionally the same thing? There is no need for a pc license if this is actually all occurring via the Xbox Hypervisor, right?

 

[coffinbirth]

Legal implications of publishing contracts. MS should have both publishing rights on PC and legal approval of cross-buy (play anywhere). They currently can't allow you to play purchased games on Xbox thats also available on MS PC store if it's not under play anywhere.

MS already in a bind now as they have rights to sell both packages but until publisher explicitly approve it they can't transfer right to run game between platforms. Having hardware BC, which is mostly for some older stuff, will change nothing.

Why would you assume they would need to change publishing contracts if the games are only available for purchase through the Xbox store? Also see my above comment to Kepler.

 

[bitbydeath]

I can play a massive chunk of my pc library natively on my phone via GameHub and emulate every console, arcade and micro computer game from 1977 up to and including Nintendo Switch, lmao.

You said wrong but then you agreed.
Emulation isn't native, that's the difference.

 

[KeplerL2]

Thanks for the clarification.
Since we are in the area of speculation here, what is the logic behind assuming this? Because my understanding is that if a piece of AMD hardware with the prerequisite modules, in this case Magnus, running Xbox OS launches BC code via a VM, legally speaking, isn't it functionally the same thing? There is no need for a pc license if this is actually all occurring via the Xbox Hypervisor, right?

Licensing isn't tied to the AMD hardware, it's tied to the legal definition of what an Xbox console made by Microsoft is. It would be illegal to run PS4/5 games on the Ryzen 4700S which uses Oberon (PS5 SoC) and same thing with running Xbox games on the Ryzen 4800S which uses Arden (XSX SoC).

 

[mckmas8808]

I hope they don't but am guessing they do just that. I can't see them making a steam machine for just a hardware profit.

I'm assuming they believe they'll sell enough games through the MS gaming store too. If they limit access to Steam behind the Gamepass paywall, then I expect them to sell even less Magnus units overall.

Isn't gatekeeping features behind subscription paywalls expected at this point?

No, not this feature. The thing people love most about Magnus is that it can play games from Steam and it has Xbox BC. You can't lock one of the two best features behind a $360 a year paywall.

 

[coffinbirth]

You said wrong but then you agreed.
Emulation isn't native, that's the difference.

That's choosing one interpretation of native over the other.
In this context native means without external support.
This all goes without saying that I could ALSO just dual boot Windows for ARM and play pc NATIVELY too, just with much worse performance.

 

[bitbydeath]

That's choosing one interpretation of native over the other.
In this context native means without external support.
This all goes without saying that I could ALSO just dual boot Windows for ARM and play pc NATIVELY too, just with much worse performance.

Native means to play natively.
Nextbox is a PC that will play PC games natively. Mobile games are not Win32 based and cannot be played natively.

 

[coffinbirth]

Licensing isn't tied to the AMD hardware, it's tied to the legal definition of what an Xbox console made by Microsoft is. It would be illegal to run PS4/5 games on the Ryzen 4700S which uses Oberon (PS5 SoC) and same thing with running Xbox games on the Ryzen 4800S which uses Arden (XSX SoC).

Right, so wouldn't the Magnus line be legally defined as an Xbox if it contains Xbox hardware, is running Xbox OS and all of this software is executed within the Xbox hypervisor? It's not exactly off the shelf parts and hacked code in that equation like your examples.

 

[Felessan]

The thing people love most about Magnus is that it can play games from Steam and it has Xbox BC. You can't lock one of the two best features behind a $360 a year paywall.

And it's cheap relatively PC hardware for the same power and that it's most probably will be a neat box that's easy to put into home theater setup with usual console easy of use
It may not sell PS6 numbers but there is certainly market for such device

A proper Steam box but with added bonus with Xbox BC and fixed hardware optimizations of console.

 

[coffinbirth]

I'm assuming they believe they'll sell enough games through the MS gaming store too. If they limit access to Steam behind the Gamepass paywall, then I expect them to sell even less Magnus units overall.



No, not this feature. The thing people love most about Magnus is that it can play games from Steam and it has Xbox BC. You can't lock one of the two best features behind a $360 a year paywall.

You do realize we are talking about Microsoft here, right? Point me in the direction of one positive, not ridiculously stupid thing they have done in the last two years.

 

[mckmas8808]

You do realize we are talking about Microsoft here, right? Point me in the direction of one positive, not ridiculously stupid thing they have done in the last two years.

They've been really stupid, but I refuse to believe they will be THAT stupid. They've gone full retard if they put buying games off of Steam, behind the Gamepass paywall.

 

[KeplerL2]

Right, so wouldn't the Magnus line be legally defined as an Xbox if it contains Xbox hardware, is running Xbox OS and all of this software is executed within the Xbox hypervisor? It's not exactly off the shelf parts and hacked code in that equation like your examples.

Xbox PC will just run Windows with the "Xbox FSE" like the ROG Ally is doing.

 

[coffinbirth]

They've been really stupid, but I refuse to believe they will be THAT stupid. They've gone full retard if they put buying games off of Steam, behind the Gamepass paywall.

I wouldn't put it past them to add a whole new tier just for pc functionality under the guise of the added games aka "value" from PC GamePass.

 

[squidilix]

So, we gonna have two hardware Xbox running with Magnus APU?

One is simply a Xbox PC like Rog Ally.
Second one is a Xbox can run PC and can boot on "Console mode" and running BC?

I suppose BC console is more expensive.

 

[coffinbirth]

Xbox PC will just run Windows with the "Xbox FSE" like the ROG Ally is doing.

Oh, wow...that's not speculation, that's just a pc then, haha.
Seems odd to me that they would purposefully choose to not at least allow for dual booting to open the door for BC and , you know, a more performant version of Windows

 

[Tobimacoss]

Something interesting.

New Xbox Magnus Console : 50M Sales Target With Windows, Steam & Game Pass Support

Can Xbox Magnus hit 50M sales? The hybrid PC console takes on PS5 with Windows, Steam access, and a focus on price and performance. Can Microsoft

www.geeky-gadgets.com

 

[Tobimacoss]

Xbox PC will just run Windows with the "Xbox FSE" like the ROG Ally is doing.

Nothing prevents the Xbox PC from running selective BC though, games that MS has gotten publisher permission from.

Nothing prevents the Xbox PC from having Forwards Compatibility with new games created for Magnus Console. MS Store Smart Delivery would simply recognize an Xbox branded PC Or Console as "Xbox" if running Magnus.

 

[clappedcheeks]

Something interesting.

New Xbox Magnus Console : 50M Sales Target With Windows, Steam & Game Pass Support

Can Xbox Magnus hit 50M sales? The hybrid PC console takes on PS5 with Windows, Steam access, and a focus on price and performance. Can Microsoft

www.geeky-gadgets.com

Has Microsoft made a statement about ordering 50m chips? The author seems to be pulling the figure out of his butt. If that's the case there's absolutely nothing new in this fluff piece that you haven't covered many times already.

 

[coffinbirth]

Has Microsoft made a statement about ordering 50m chips? The author seems to be pulling the figure out of his butt. If that's the case there's absolutely nothing new in this fluff piece that you haven't covered many times already.

Isn't that from an old leak? 50m for the console and 10m for the handheld that got cancelled bc Microsoft got cold feet over the 10m minimum investment?

 

[KeplerL2]

Something interesting.

New Xbox Magnus Console : 50M Sales Target With Windows, Steam & Game Pass Support

Can Xbox Magnus hit 50M sales? The hybrid PC console takes on PS5 with Windows, Steam access, and a focus on price and performance. Can Microsoft

www.geeky-gadgets.com

Nothing prevents the Xbox PC from running selective BC though, games that MS has gotten publisher permission from.

Nothing prevents the Xbox PC from having Forwards Compatibility with new games created for Magnus Console. MS Store Smart Delivery would simply recognize an Xbox branded PC Or Console as "Xbox" if running Magnus.

Sure but most 3rd-party publishers are still against Play Anywhere, so don't get your hopes up

 

[Tobimacoss]

Sure but most 3rd-party publishers are still against Play Anywhere, so don't get your hopes up

It wouldn't require Play Anywhere status or work from publishers though. A simple change in the publishers contracts for new games going forward would suffice. That any New game published after a specific date, will be authorized to run on all Xbox branded devices regardless of form factor.

GDK creates SCALABLE games for PCs, Laptops, Handhelds. GDKX creates games optimized for fixed spec hardware for Consoles and Cloud. That optimization is what ends up with separate SKU, requiring the need for Play Anywhere licensing to bind the ecosystem.

But an Xbox PC with fixed spec hardware, same as Console, can just be recognized as Xbox Console.

So you will have GDK builds for normal PCs, GDKX builds for Xbox PCs with Magnus. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. A GDKX game could then run on Magnus AT2 Console, Magnus AT1 Xbox PC, or Magnus AT0 xCloud. Same license.

Let's see how things play out, but this is definitely the most interesting hardware.

 

[coffinbirth]

It wouldn't require Play Anywhere status or work from publishers though. A simple change in the publishers contracts for new games going forward would suffice. That any New game published after a specific date, will be authorized to run on all Xbox branded devices regardless of form factor.

GDK creates SCALABLE games for PCs, Laptops, Handhelds. GDKX creates games optimized for fixed spec hardware for Consoles and Cloud. That optimization is what ends up with separate SKU, requiring the need for Play Anywhere licensing to bind the ecosystem.

But an Xbox PC with fixed spec hardware, same as Console, can just be recognized as Xbox Console.

So you will have GDK builds for normal PCs, GDKX builds for Xbox PCs with Magnus. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. A GDKX game could then run on Magnus AT2 Console, Magnus AT1 Xbox PC, or Magnus AT0 xCloud. Same license.

Let's see how things play out, but this is definitely the most interesting hardware.

If by "simple change" you mean pay a shitload more for that "feature", sure.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I still believe only the 1st party "Xbox Series X2" will have BC, while the "ASUS ROG Xbox PC" will not, even though both are using the same hardware.

 

[Tobimacoss]

If by "simple change" you mean pay a shitload more for that "feature", sure.

Pay what? For all we know, MS probably could've made that change already. That's why they're sounding confident regarding BC and FC. They will likely be doing 12% store cut across the board though.

Publishers would simply have a choice, publish or not publish on Xbox. There's a reason why MS targeted the three main publishers with their respective PC storefronts, who would object to such a change. EA Play, Ubisoft+ Classics, FortNite Crew being part of Gamepass Ultimate basically ensures those publishers are always on board with MS plans.

The goal is to have both scalable and optimized games across the 5 form factors with a unified licensing, as in PCs, Laptops, Handhelds, Consoles, Cloud. Play Anywhere, Cloud Enabled, Handheld Optimized, those three things ensure that happens, and cover the full ecosystem. Arc Raiders for example is all three.

But MS isn't ready to force publishers to support Nvidia or Intel hardware configurations, so they won't force Play Anywhere. However, they very much can ensure all AMD Magnus devices of a same or higher tier than the Console (AT2) can run the GDKX builds from the same license.

Convergence goes both ways. Getting PC games running on Consoles and getting Console games running on PCs. Selling an Xbox branded PC makes no sense otherwise if it isn't part of a universal platform. AMD and MS goal is to flood the market and take over the pre built PCs market.

 

[bigdad2007]

If the Magus can run full Windows and Steam is installable with a dual boot option for the Xbox portion I would be pretty interested. Otherwise nah.

 

[memoryman3]

Licensing isn't tied to the AMD hardware, it's tied to the legal definition of what an Xbox console made by Microsoft is. It would be illegal to run PS4/5 games on the Ryzen 4700S which uses Oberon (PS5 SoC) and same thing with running Xbox games on the Ryzen 4800S which uses Arden (XSX SoC).

Still, if the Xbox console can run every Windows application, couldn't a publisher define it as a PC and decide to pull their games from the store?

 

[adamsapple]

If the Magus can run full Windows and Steam is installable with a dual boot option for the Xbox portion I would be pretty interested. Otherwise nah.

The prospect of it being equivalent to a $3000 pre-built at the projected price of $1200 is pretty interesting to me.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

The prospect of it being equivalent to a $3000 pre-built at the projected price of $1200 is pretty interesting to me.

Problem that in end of 2027 you will probably be able to configure something much faster for 1600$ based on rtx 6xxx series

 

[adamsapple]

Problem that in end of 2027 you will probably be able to configure something much faster for 1600$ based on rtx 6xxx series

Possibly, but the RDNA 7 standard it's supposed to come with doesn't even come out until 2027, so it will at least be extremely competitive for a few years to AMD products.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

PS4Pro exit market just before PS5 launched
PS5Pro as being mostly inferior product to PS6 and sold for profit will most likely follow the trend.

lol

 

[viveks86]

I said Magnus APU, and referred to potential different skus and form factors for OEM later. But we were discussing the console pricing, so I see the confusion on the one hand...
But he obviously never said the console wouldn't be BC. Nobody would think the Xbox console wouldn't play Xbox games.
We have people here claiming to be Microsoft insiders saying it will and AMD insiders saying it won't, so I don't think any of this is anything but moot until word comes down from up high.

That's fair. As long as you understood there was a confusion we are good. We are all speculating anyway.