Small John McCarthy
Member
Couldn't agree less.
It's not up to me to stop talking, it's up to him to stop listening.
It's not up to me to stop talking, it's up to him to stop listening.
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Jeff Kaplan is sick of hearing you demonize games you weren't going to play anyway: 'Shut the fuck up. No one cares.'
- Thread starter LectureMaster
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EverythingsOverrated
Member
I've seen a lot more of this over the last 5-10 years. People that haven't played a minute of a game telling someone who has thoroughly played said game that it sucks. One of the most recent ones I can think of is Marathon. Is it revolutionary? Nope. Is it a fun well made game that isn't for everyone? Yes. But I've had multiple friends that haven't played a second of it telling me it sucks because they saw some Youtube video saying it sucks.
Another one somewhat recently was the new Mafia game. There was a clip going around showing that you can't swim and that in of itself created the online narrative that it was a shit game because there isn't swimming and look, even this open world game from 2006 had swimming. Is it a great game? Not sure, I haven't played it, but other people online that haven't played it will tell you instantly that it's ass because of a clip that was re-shared online.
The whole thing is interesting to watch, tbh.
Another one somewhat recently was the new Mafia game. There was a clip going around showing that you can't swim and that in of itself created the online narrative that it was a shit game because there isn't swimming and look, even this open world game from 2006 had swimming. Is it a great game? Not sure, I haven't played it, but other people online that haven't played it will tell you instantly that it's ass because of a clip that was re-shared online.
The whole thing is interesting to watch, tbh.
I think he's mostly saying there's a difference between saying this game looks like shit, I'm not going to play versus saying this game IS shit, I'm not going to play it and I'm going to tell everyone that will listen how shit this game I haven't played is.
KanKamAndNob
Member
These sorts of pansies only want to have their asses kissed even if their product doesn't deserve it.
This attitude is another one of the many reasons why I'm done with AAA Western studios. If they're not churning out activist turds, then they just bitch about us not liking their garbage like a bunch of spoiled fucking toddlers.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
Calling GAF out rightly.
If you played a test or demo, or full product, post constructive criticism.
But this site has turned into a 30+ page thread or some shit dunking on a games player count from folks who never played it and never plan to acting like they are morally authorities on the matter.
Insufferable and delusional rants that lead to stagnation and companies only being willing to invest in madden 999 and call of duty 62. You're not getting your whining across to devs at all so you're only making the situation worse.
If you played a test or demo, or full product, post constructive criticism.
But this site has turned into a 30+ page thread or some shit dunking on a games player count from folks who never played it and never plan to acting like they are morally authorities on the matter.
Insufferable and delusional rants that lead to stagnation and companies only being willing to invest in madden 999 and call of duty 62. You're not getting your whining across to devs at all so you're only making the situation worse.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Yeah, ESO and FF14:ARR were the last 2 big MMO launches, and both were based on existing franchises.
Plague Doctor
Member
That's the joke for anyone who gets so defensive.
The more they respond to negativity/criticism/etc like this, the funnier it becomes and the more it will happen.
Edit: Like I feel like I am giving away the game here, but if they didn't crash out and cry... people would lose interest and move on.
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kpopSuperstar
Member
"There are certain forums or Reddits or whatever where it's just like, yeah, that one's on ignore from now on. They're not actually productive in any way,"
Kronark
Member
If they made more games I liked, I'd have less time to shit post on the internet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm a monster created by the industry.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
So you're fine with online reviews or Facebook marketplace or wherever shitting on your business and products but they never once engaged with? Maybe they just drove by you building and deemed it's total dog shit.
These were never potential customers - these are douche bags.
He's referring to them. Not people who try it via demo or play test or actual release.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I mostly agree with that, but I think there's a balance. Yes, creatives should be allowed to do what they think is interesting even if it's counter to what the fans say they want (see also: Metroid Prime 1, which people hated on until they actually got to play it), but they shouldn't be surprised when people don't believe in the vision until the game's out and it's a proven success. I think when a studio goes too far, like Ubisoft running all of their franchises into the ground by producing the same half-baked open world shit, the complaints are valid. The games are still for the same audience, but they just suck now. Why even give them a chance, really?
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Saber
Newd Member
I know this is already has being said quite some time here.
But this is the exact effect of a toxic positivity. He, like many others, is gonna be putting arbritary "rules" for people to be on the right side of spectrum. The ones who vomits positivity will never be affected, regardless of playing the game or not.
In the end its aways the same thing.
"I love this game even though I didn't played!" - valid in their mind
"Man I didn't play this game but I watch it and it sucks!" - not valid
Its a similar concept with the whole calling off review bombing while ignoring people spamming 10 scores with "fuck the haters" in their review.
But this is the exact effect of a toxic positivity. He, like many others, is gonna be putting arbritary "rules" for people to be on the right side of spectrum. The ones who vomits positivity will never be affected, regardless of playing the game or not.
In the end its aways the same thing.
"I love this game even though I didn't played!" - valid in their mind
"Man I didn't play this game but I watch it and it sucks!" - not valid
Its a similar concept with the whole calling off review bombing while ignoring people spamming 10 scores with "fuck the haters" in their review.
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BloodFree
Member
You're moving the goalposts by choosing to insert the what the tone of the feedback is. I have answered your question in a manner that should settle this.
As a creator myself, I can assure you knowing what people want and don't want just by itself is VERY valuable feedback. Even if the tone is not always what I'd like.
EDIT: Even getting people to give a shit in the first place to leave that feedback is incredible.
Also that sounds exactly like the kind he is talking about:
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Hollywood Hitman
Gold Member
Oh I agree about douche bags but it's still not a good look tho imo, because I think it's easy to take as even a non buyer...there's games I passed on and eventually bought and loved but if the I caught the devs posting about it like this it's a turn off.
Its like politics I wish all these people would just keep quiet. I understand what you mean but use this analogy think about restaurants and the word of mouth... Someone says something negative about somewhere and people take it as gospel, you can't help that... But if the owner catches wind and goes on a rant like this it's just a bad look.
People gotta just realize you can't stop what people may say or do, assholes just exist... It takes a stronger man to just ignore them and go on.
Sure I do think leaving reviews should never be wide open and only those who made the purchase but even still, they can't prevent the assholes but they themselves can just be less out spoken like that but that's just me
Fbh
Member
I can respect the idea of fully committing to making the game you want and ignoring negative feedback. But only if you aren't going to complain or try to blame others if your project fails.
People generally don't hate on games just because. There's usually something they think the game represents and they want it to fail because they want either a company or the industry as a whole to do less of that thing.
Many people who hate "woke" stuff are going to be rooting for games like DA Veilguard and 1348 Ex Voto to fail, because they hope if enough "woke" games fail then the industry will eventually move away from them.
Or people who deeply dislike Sony investing heavily into GAAS want to see games like Concord and Marathon fail as they hope it will discourage them for spending even more time and money on them.
I'm not saying the reason for hating games are always justified. But the reasoning behind it usually seems to be "I don't like this sort of stuff, so I hope it fails and we see less of it".
People generally don't hate on games just because. There's usually something they think the game represents and they want it to fail because they want either a company or the industry as a whole to do less of that thing.
Many people who hate "woke" stuff are going to be rooting for games like DA Veilguard and 1348 Ex Voto to fail, because they hope if enough "woke" games fail then the industry will eventually move away from them.
Or people who deeply dislike Sony investing heavily into GAAS want to see games like Concord and Marathon fail as they hope it will discourage them for spending even more time and money on them.
I'm not saying the reason for hating games are always justified. But the reasoning behind it usually seems to be "I don't like this sort of stuff, so I hope it fails and we see less of it".
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IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
It doesn't matter why somebody doesn't like the look of the game. All feedback should be heard, but if it's taken on board or not by the developer/publisher is a different matter all together.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Even "Fuck you for making a GAAS game, I hope your game fails and you all get laid off"?
BloodFree
Member
Yes. That clearly states that the person is not interested in GaaS games. That is actually valuable feedback. Is it the nicest way that statement could be said ? No, but it still transmits what the person is after and why he's upset back to the Dev.
Hollywood Hitman
Gold Member
Yea I find it so very unprofessional to see
StreetsofBeige
Member
Legend of California looks like junk.
It's like its made by a European studio janking around lousy character models during the X1/PS4 era.
It's like its made by a European studio janking around lousy character models during the X1/PS4 era.
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playbignbox
Member
I believe he's partially correct... some games aren't for everyone, and instead of understanding that and moving on to another game, some people end up criticizing in a way that serves no purpose.
Hollywood Hitman
Gold Member
Yea it's like a chef making food and even if you're a dick about it, which sucks, it comes with the territory.
Imagine if he came out from the back and yelled at everyone that doesn't want to buy his raspberry truffle liver with celery dish because they all want the chicken parm, it just doesn't bode well
Some things whether food or games sounds like shit, am I wrong?
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StreetsofBeige
Member
Also, a gaming and media skewed kind of thing.
The entertainment industry has a knack for hiring people always itching for comebacks at the customer base. I dont think there's too many other kinds of companies or industries that do that even if their products suck.
Even with entertainment, given the amount of flak pro athletes get on a daily basis, they dont even rip back at fans booing them in their face or trashing them in articles which can happen any day from media or fans in social media. Occasionally they do, but if you think about it they collectively have a way of not getting too involved with fans despite 24/7 criticism. Yet a random guy making a video game might lash out on social media.
The dumbest thing too is when gaming companies fight back at gamers, it's not even low level desk jobbers who doesnt know any better. It's often studio heads or other high level people. So it goes to show the kind of leadership people they have working there.
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DarkShadowXI
Gold Member
And it's like this for every hobby: videogames, tech gadgets, LEGO, sports, you name it. Everybody hates everything. Doesn't matter what it is.
I don't know how we've survived this long as a species lol. The internet has amplified it by 900,000%
Luipadre
Member
You can spot the same people here lol
wondermega
Member
Is whining about complaining the new whining? Or the new complaining? Anyway, the real story here is the meatheads who listened to 9.5 hours of this or whatever it was and are taking him to task on it in the first place.
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Jeff Kaplan is sick of hearing you demonize games you weren't going to play anyway: 'Shut the f**k up. No one cares. We don't need to hear that you weren't into it'
In a 10-hour stream of his studio's upcoming game, Kaplan said he's "bored" with compulsive online outrage.www.pcgamer.com
Last week, former Blizzard vice president and game designer Jeff Kaplan made his first public appearance since leaving the World of Warcraft and Overwatch developer in 2021, revealing his independent game studio, Kintsugiyama, and its upcoming frontier survival game, The Legend of California.
Days later, Kaplan continued that momentum with a casual 10-hour stream of a pre-alpha Legend of California build. While showing off the work Kintsugiyama has done so far, Kaplan flexed some of the newfound PR freedom he enjoyed in his recent retelling of his departure from Blizzard, speaking bluntly about his distaste for the dysfunction and hostility in discussions surrounding recent game launches.
"I understand voicing your opinion," Kaplan said as the stream entered its ninth hour. "But like, if a game comes out and you don't want to play it and you've never played it, shut the fuck up. No one cares. We don't need to hear that you weren't into it."
Kaplan, who owes his career in game development in part to his own, often-harsh shitposting about EverQuest design decisions, acknowledged that he's "given it out at times." But crucially, he said, his circa 2000 EQ1 design takedowns were at least motivated by having played the game in the first place. In contrast, he says the "nerd baby rage" from online hatemongers isn't even worth acknowledging, "because you're so off the deep end that it's not even worth listening to you."
"There are certain forums or Reddits or whatever where it's just like, yeah, that one's on ignore from now on. They're not actually productive in any way," Kaplan said. "It's just who can get the most points by being outraged. I'm bored with it."
Tim Ford, Kaplan's fellow former Blizzard dev and Kintsugiyama co-founder, echoed his opinion, saying that "it's not impressive" to be as awful as possible about something that isn't to your liking.
"It's not difficult to shit on something," Ford said on-stream. "Apparently, it takes a ton of courage to say, 'Hey, I actually like this thing. I don't care that you don't like it. I like it.'"
Jeff K can you
cinnamonandgravy
Member
i care
Laptop1991
Member
And that's why the sales are down, don't listen to your customers and fans and don't give them the games they want the most, yeah that worked well in the last 5 or 6 years!!.
LectureMaster
Or is it just one of Adam's balls in my throat?
"There are certain forums or Reddits or whatever where it's just like, yeah, that one's on ignore from now on. They're not actually productive in any way,"
Edgelord79
Gold Member
I see Kaplan is going out on a limb making a frontier survival game.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Consumers have all the right in the world to voice their opinions.
They are scared and don't like that but it is what it is. If a AAA studio makes a terrible game or goes down the GAAS line then people will make fun of them, and rightfully so.
They are scared and don't like that but it is what it is. If a AAA studio makes a terrible game or goes down the GAAS line then people will make fun of them, and rightfully so.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
Yes.
If that sentiment is parroted by hundreds or thousands, it means there's a problem and the marketing team should get out of their bubble and start wondering WHY a large contingent of people are sick of certain games.
A second smart question would be "does it matter to us?" and then act accordingly. Disregarding the main issue just because of poor manners is not very clever and keeps you from learning if that noise is a nothingburger or there are real issues that might impact sales.
And I repeat, listening is not equal to agreeing with what people say, but at the very least you must be aware of the conversation so failures like Highguard don't happen again.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
So let's use marathon and Bungie for example:
-Company with now 2 GaaS titles behind them with Destiny 1&2
-They want to take an old IP to make it into a genre they seem to like and understand
-Games art style isn't for everyone
Now game has alphas, an open server slam, and full release.
During alpha and open slam players should absolutely be going "I played x hours and I don't like this this and this. I don't think I'll buy it unless these things change or improve."
Guess what Bungie does with that? Makes a better game worth everyone's time.
Instead you have people yelling into the void the game is slop, a flop, hope that the studio goes under, and haven't played a second of it and under no circumstances ever would. They get off on hating on the game. Meme on CCU without actually being funny.
What exactly did Bungie do to warrant this websites in particular 5+ various threads dunking on the game, one of which is like 30 pages plus? They wanted to try and make something new. The player base really likes it but it needs MORE to bring in more players.
People constantly on here talking about "making a game for everyone is bad because it lacks focus and no one buys it." This game focuses on the hardcore PvP extraction players.
So should Bungie or any dev in similar circumstances be listening to a 30+ page thread hating a game where 99% didn't play it and just want to see them close their studio, or instead focus on constructive criticisms?
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Yeah sure, I agree. And the thing is that people shitting on the game doesn't take away from the user feedback.
Well personally? I think they deserve it. They took an existing IP and completely transformed into something else. Fuck the fans I guess. There's also all the shit that happened with the stolen art which was already funny enough.
They could have made their new cool game without fucking up the Marathon IP nor going through all that shit with the stolen art. And to make matters worse, the game (imo) looks like shit and with terrible art.
The hate is more than deserved I believe.
Nobody is forcing them to read anything. They could just focus on the user feedback but instead they chose to cry online. Sad, and very unprofessional.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
He's right.
If you're disappointed by something you bought, or even had wanted to buy, fair enough.
But let's be real, pearl clutching over something that you were never into in the first place is just being a performative douchebag.
Seriously, there are so many "big" games, hell, entire platforms that I frankly could not give a damn about, but I wouldn't bash them just because I'm not the target audience.
This shouldn't be the least bit controversial to say! Not everything is supposed to be for you.
If you're disappointed by something you bought, or even had wanted to buy, fair enough.
But let's be real, pearl clutching over something that you were never into in the first place is just being a performative douchebag.
Seriously, there are so many "big" games, hell, entire platforms that I frankly could not give a damn about, but I wouldn't bash them just because I'm not the target audience.
This shouldn't be the least bit controversial to say! Not everything is supposed to be for you.
mdkirby
Gold Member
People comment on these games they have no insertions of playing because these companies keep making games the overwhelming percent of gamers have no interest in playing, and not making games they want to play, and it's literally destroying the industry and losing tens of thousands of people their jobs.
These same gamers do buy games and love games, they just now are very rarely prosecuted by AAA western publishers who seem to hate their prospective customers.
People are screaming into the void in socials in the hope that one day they'll wake the fuck up before it causes a complete collapse of the industry.
Most do it out of love and frustration, not hate.
These same gamers do buy games and love games, they just now are very rarely prosecuted by AAA western publishers who seem to hate their prospective customers.
People are screaming into the void in socials in the hope that one day they'll wake the fuck up before it causes a complete collapse of the industry.
Most do it out of love and frustration, not hate.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
The existing IP and lore keeps being expanded on. Check the OG marathon games discord- tons of fan theories, discussion, and praise. Right now a major ARG for 4th map going on that involves Durandal and aliens- loving it as someone who likes the original lore.
They credited the artist in the credits, and likely compensated them. We won't ever know how much (of which seemed little) was actually used in the game but they did the right thing. Wasn't it one artist going rogue that did that or am I misremembering?
The art is what it is. It's how art works. I don't think breath of the wild is pretty at all but others adore it.
It plays superb. I'm close to 100 hours clocked.
I've said in other threads they should've:
-Launched with a campaign
-A coop pve mode like firefight
-Fixed the UI and cosmetics up
If you're like me who's played all the extraction games this is a sweet middle ground between Tarkov and arc leaning more to Tarkov with so many QoL improvements the genre has needed.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
This is disingenuous.
Tons of devs make games that gamers on paper should like based off what you see spouted online and no one shows up.
Like GTFO is this incredible hardcore co op game that is very high quality without any shitty micro transactions and runs great on various hardware. No one played it but a small handful.
Devs are making art and entertainment. Look at that weird ass game last year where you play as a lighthouse. Not for me but I gotta say it's ballsy to make such a thing.
Then you got the CoD and FIFA side of the spectrum. Zero innovation and yet millions play and have fun every year.