Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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911 tapes don't necessarily prove what happened one way or another...heard sounds? That probably doesnt establish anything other than a struggle and a gunshot, which we already know about. Eyewitnesses after the fact saying the police got their story wrong after all this attention brought to it? Very iffy. And its my understanding the the witnesses that are known, none of them actually saw what happened, only that there was someone lying on the ground shot. And then there are Zimmerman's injuries as well...which could have come from behing hit from behind, or could have come from a struggle. I don't know what other evidence the police had, but everything that's been talked about thus far seems like a lot of perhaps and partials but nothing completely concrete.
You got a wannabe-overzealous-cop type who you just know deep down in your gut is guilty of at the very LEAST getting himself into a bad situation and panicking, but nothing really good enough to say for sure 100%. I mean, if you already think this is some racist shit then honestly any evidence no matter how incomplete is probably good enough for you but obviously there's a higher standard. Maybe the cops did botch it. I doubt the guy is connected. If he were he probably just wouldnt be some neighborhood pretend-cop. Maybe the FBI can dig up something better but to me this sounds like a whole lot of maybes and that's not going to be good enough to get it done, no matter how overzealous the guy seemed leading up to this incident.
MightyHealthy
Banned
No offense intended, but this is incorrect. They were saying the police were wrong (and correcting statements) WAY before it hit the national spotlight.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
so him screaming for help was what exactly? i mean come the fuck on.
So assuming this is true, what would you believe? Witnesses testimony which can be unreliable, or some big cover-up by police? Who knows. My guess is that witness testimony won't be good enough and if they do get this guy it will be because the FBI finds things that the cops didn't. Which is entirely possible.
Come on babe that's what trials are for, and even they don't prove things 100%, whatever 100% would be. Maybe you can be mad about the right wing comments in this thread or something.
Im not "mad" about anything. This is just how I see it. Im no detective or lawyer, but I know you've got to have a certain standard of evidence to hold a guy and charge them to get to trial. Otherwise you get your shit thrown out and you get sued.
There is a 911 tape that has Zimmerman contradicting his own story. He says he did not chase down or confront the victim - on the 911 tape you can hear his own narration of admitting to stalk the victim, asking if he should chase him down, mentioning how the victim was running away, and against the suggestions of the dispatch - decide to chase him down. All this is very clear on his own personal 911 tape.
That alone is enough to throw his self-defence claim out the window.
Aaronology
Member
So Zimmerman claiming he got out of his and was attacked while the 911 tapes showing he got out of his car to chase a fleeing teenager proves nothing now? And the tapes showing Martin shouting for help before Zimmerman shot him? Everything boils down to whether Zimmerman acted in self defense but none of that is relevant, Enron? Really?
Little Green Yoda
Member
I think the presumption that minorities don't racially discriminate is just as bullshit.
You can arrest, indict, and convict just on his statement + 911 tape.
His official story being a lie is a good place to start. He claims he left his truck to check the name of the street, and was attacked from behind. The recording of his call shows that he left the truck when Trayvon started running away from him, and he only got out of the vehicle in order to pursue on foot. At this point, they weren't withing 50 feet of each other.
There's so much circumstantial evidence in there. The DA's office is probably just waiting for an arrest to be made, because they know it'll be effortless to get a trial out of the grand jury.
He'll plea out quickly.
But is a contradicting story enough to arrest and charge someone? This is why you need bulletproof eyewitnesses and physical evidence to clearly demonstrate "this is a lie, and this is what really happened". Contradicting story merely says "either the 1st or 2nd story is a lie" but without that iron-clad evidence you can't say what did happen with any sort of certainty which makes an arrest very iffy and a charge even iffier.
Oh yeah, if this gets to trial and doesn't get thrown out he's going to hang for sure. Stuff like this, unless the evidence CLEARLY points to innocence the court of public opinion has already convicted this dude and there's no way he'll win. This thread is pretty good proof, lol.
I think you should think a bit more about this - the cops have to collect enough evidence to bring a charge and have it stick in a court. The guy changing his story merely says that one or both of those stories is a lie. If you don't have enough evidence to meet some standard of certainty as to what happened, the police probably don't know what the truth is. Just that Zimmerman is or has lied. That alone doesn't seem like it would be enough.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
This isn't shoplifting, somebody is dead. Yes he should be arrest and put on trial, then the ironclad evidence can be proven one way or another.. That's what the courts are suppose to decide not the cops
The reason why he wasn't arrested was because he claimed self defence. The evidence now shows that his self defence claim is no longer applicable, thus, he will be arrested soon enough. I have to believe that.
You don't need iron clad evidence to arrest or charge someone. You need -enough- evidence. There is enough evidence to charge him for murder with him admitting to killing the guy and all. Without the self defence safety net, it should be cut and dry.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
he made assumptions about a kid that cost the kid his life.. And He shouldn't be judged in the same way.. That makes sense
Haha, Georgey, Goergey, Georgey, resorting to fairy tale stories now?
How could he even make this story up after he clearly tells dispatch in the 911 tapes that the kid was running and decided to pursue!
Fuck this story just gets sadder and sadder...
Sadly the kid wasn't bulletproof.
Facts I would like to know:
- Was he in uniform
- Did he announce himself
- Was his car marked
If I was 17 and I seen someone following me in the rain I would be scared as sh*t. It basically seems like he seen someone who was not committing a crime aggressively approached him and shot him. Also, is that the complete 911 tape?
- Was he in uniform
- Did he announce himself
- Was his car marked
If I was 17 and I seen someone following me in the rain I would be scared as sh*t. It basically seems like he seen someone who was not committing a crime aggressively approached him and shot him. Also, is that the complete 911 tape?
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Enron cmon now.
Devolution
Member
Are we treading the same fucking steps again even after all that's come out? Wow.
Those facts don't even matter, he's not recognized as any sort of authority or law.
Those facts don't even matter, he's not recognized as any sort of authority or law.
MightyHealthy
Banned
I'll believe the 911 tapes, where almost everyone who called said they heard a younger boy's voice screaming for help before the gunshot.
These witnesses became more vocal when the police coerced and insisted that Zimmerman was the one screaming.
I think the FBI will dig deeper, no doubt, but they are at a disadvantage. They have to work a case that's almost a month old, where the police collected little to no evidence with a clear bias against the victim. They won't be able to make any claims about whether George was intoxicated, because they never checked him, as is standard homicide procedure.
Like others have said, it's Zimmerman's own words in that 911 call which will destroy his claims of self-defense.
There are uniforms for neighborhood watch volunteers?
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
he wasnt a cop. so he wouldnt have any of that.
He doesn't have a uniform, he isn't a police officer. He was wearing a hoodie.
He probably yelled at the kid, that part isn't clear - the kid did notice him however, as on the 911 tape of Zimmerman, he announces that the kid spotted him and started running.
His car wasn't marked, as he isn't a police officer, it was just a car.
"What Mister Zimmerman said on the 911 tape was not what happened. He was in a state of panic and what he described on the recording is not a valid description of what happened. When Mister Zimmerman said "I'm going after him" he meant to say "He's coming right at me!"
Funny part is that I'm not joking.
Funny part is that I'm not joking.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Poor guy might get judged unfairly
As far as I know, people in the neighborhood watch don't have uniforms.
Aaronology
Member
Why do you keep repeating this? I don't get it. We do know with certainty what happened up to a point. It's a fact Zimmerman got out of his car and chased Martin. It's not "he said, she said," Enron. And yes, if I shoot an unarmed minor to death, claim self defense and my version of what happened is proven false, I'd expected to be arrested.
real talk, that dude's tumblr is probably one of the greatest ever made
he is mad funny
Who the fuck is saying that?! I swear if that's what they come up with as a defence, my shit will be lost.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Of course. It's obvious he was scared since A) He ran...and B) He screamed for help
I wouldn't be surprised if they actually try that as a way to have the 911 tapes discredited.
soundahfekz
Member
Poor guy, he just didn't know what to do.
Where I'm from, following someone, chasing them down, trying to restrain without cause then shooting them when trying to defend themselves is called murder. My city might be a bit backwards though so excuse me if so.
Fuck anyone trying to rationalize this guy's actions. The final details aren't going to deviate much from what we know given how concrete the 911 tape is coupled with accounts multiple witnesses.
He was advised not to follow. He ignored that then got into a struggle with this kid and shot him. Those are the facts. There is no 'panicking' with a gun in a struggle you illegally initiated. If you reach for it, you intend to use it. The minimum should've been an arrest, but some people around here are acting like if Trayvon survived and had just been grazed, then there was no basis for an arrest of Zimmerman. This shit was fucked up every step of the way.
How hard would it be to pull some CSI shit and do an audio recording match with the voice of the victim and the screaming person in the 911 calls?
I don't even think you would really need to, it's obvious that the person who is screaming is the person who died, because as soon as you hear that second gun shot, that screaming is -instantly- silenced.
I don't even think you would really need to, it's obvious that the person who is screaming is the person who died, because as soon as you hear that second gun shot, that screaming is -instantly- silenced.
As far as we can tell, he was not wearing the pointy white hood.
So the guy could be a serial killer, abducter, etc. and he is suppose to comply with some nut following him in the rain what if it was a female.
Devolution
Member
Well some people in this thread would have you believe that a car stalking you at night is not at all suspicious or scary.
It's not like the 911 tapes are completely anecdotal or something... it's for the most part audio recordings of the whole affair happening.
From Zimmerman's callous suspicions and description of the minor.
To his clear refusal to follow dispatch instructions.
To his evident grudge against those who "always get away".
To his observation of the minor fleeing.
To his pursuit.
And the various 911 calls where you hear the cries for help from the kid before the sound of the bullet and the silence that came after.
...
Let the detectives do their follow up investigation, no one has a problem with that and everyone wants due process to occur. Let him be innocent in court until proven without a doubt guilty by a jury of his peer.
At the same time Zimmerman should be sitting in jail pending his trial.
From Zimmerman's callous suspicions and description of the minor.
To his clear refusal to follow dispatch instructions.
To his evident grudge against those who "always get away".
To his observation of the minor fleeing.
To his pursuit.
And the various 911 calls where you hear the cries for help from the kid before the sound of the bullet and the silence that came after.
...
Let the detectives do their follow up investigation, no one has a problem with that and everyone wants due process to occur. Let him be innocent in court until proven without a doubt guilty by a jury of his peer.
At the same time Zimmerman should be sitting in jail pending his trial.
The fact that someone is dead is even MORE reason they've got to be even more careful. If you dont that strong evidence when you go to trial, you risk having the defense arguing successfully that the evidence isn't strong enough and the judge throwing the case out.
Because he told two different stories doesn't automatically destroy his self defense claim though. Sure it puts up a huge red flag but without good-enough evidence it's probably just not enough.
Cmon what?
People get judged unfairly all the time, I don't care about that. I just think its interesting that so many are willing to believe that the cops are somehow corrupt or racist because of how emotionally-charged a case is. Personally I think what likely happened is that this guy saw someone he didn't recognize (being black in a white neighborhood sure helped) and being the overzealous twat that he was decided to follow and confront this kid. This kid reacted in some way he wasn't expecting and he shot him, and he's saying all kinds of shit because he's trying to find some way out. However, where I differ from most of you is that I don't think the stuff they have that we know about is going to be good enough to get him, even though deep down I think he's guilty.
I did say AT THE VERY LEAST. And just because I think he panicked and shot the kid, it doesn't mean I believe his self-defense claim or that he's innocent or whatever you think. Man, just for presenting things people haven't thought of or are somehow ignoring gets a bunch of folks jumping down your throat, ha.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
The witness testimonies (the ones that said the initial reports by the police were false), are actually corroborated by the 911 tapes. Trayvon was the one that screamed for help, not Zimmerman, as the police corrected some witness statements.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
I can only imagine being in a deliberation room and hearing some of the things I've read in this thread. It boggles my mind that people like that exist.
Though if it were up to them...there would be no need for jurors because...you know. To arrest someone you have to be 200% sure they committed a crime. Honestly there's really no need for a trial.
And let's just be honest. Killing an innocent 17 year old is not really a crime. At least when he's black amirite?
Though if it were up to them...there would be no need for jurors because...you know. To arrest someone you have to be 200% sure they committed a crime. Honestly there's really no need for a trial.
And let's just be honest. Killing an innocent 17 year old is not really a crime. At least when he's black amirite?
Devolution
Member
Self-defense dude, even though I brought the gun to a skittles fight.
soundahfekz
Member
The 911 audio tape and several witness accounts along with the established facts don't constitute "good-enough evidence" for an arrest?
Keep it up kid, you're picking up right where Kharvey left off.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
I'm pretty sure there is enough evidence for manslaughter.
Also, if the only people arrested for crimes, are those with iron-clad evidence against them, no one would ever win a court case against them.
It resonates the feeling of the kid brought it on himself victim blaming mentality...
The person dead in question is a 17 year old kid and his only crime was walking in the wrong neighborhood.
It can be looked at from as many perspectives as one wants but at the end of the day the kid died because he was walking in the wrong neighborhood.
Armed with skittles and ice tea...
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
That is the point... If he is innocence his case will get thrown out.. Then his truth will show. Of course lying about how it happened wouldn't help his case..
Trying to find some out of taking responsibility for killing an innocent kid about sums it up nicely...
He should be tried.. He made his choices and he took the law in his own hands so he should be judged by his peers if what he did was lawful force..
Again he should be judged by a higher authority than me or you or the local PD
I'm genuinely surprised no one tried to play the "The indistinct object looked like a weapon" card yet.
soundahfekz
Member
Nah Blackace the kid reacted in some kind of way. He blinked or something. Maybe the Skittles hit his arizona can and sounded like a weapon being brandished. Yeah, that's it!
GAF never ceases to amaze man
enron said:
How the fuck do you think this case got so emotionally charged? I mean are you trying to be this disingenuous, or what?
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