Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
who thinks he was in the wrong?
Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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who thinks he was in the wrong?
That comment he was quoting from CNN.
Dude Abides
Banned
What evidence is "not the best?" You have Zimmerman admitting he shot him. In most places that alone would be enough for an arrest. You have Zimmerman disobeying an instruction not to follow Martin. You have 911 tapes where it sounds like a younger person is telling someone else to get away from him. You have three witnesses who say they heard the incident and that Martin was screaming for help. What more evidence do you think is needed? A signed confession?
Yeah that's the other thing, freaking nut was following him in a car. Kid told him to back off. Witness said he cornered him too iirc.
Scary to think of how the dynamic would change if the kid did have a weapon though. Young armed teen shoots neighborhood watch volunteer.
Based on that law you can shoot anyone you get into a fight with.
slopeslider said:
I'm not too worried about that. BTW, you realize that an innocent child died, right? You are aware of that, correct?
Yep, he would be arrested and be facing trial by now.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
All of which is circumstantial - none of the witnesses actually saw or heard the entire incident, only the tail end of it. The best of the evidence against Zimmerman is his changing story, but my guess is that without anything better than the witness testimony in their hands its probably not enough based on that alone.
Mammoth Jones
Member
How the fuck do you claim self defense when YOU are the aggressor?
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Witnesses have to be more reliable than the killer...
VistraNorrez
Member
From what I know of the law practically all evidence is circumstantial. Forensic evidence, for instance, is considered circumstantial. But if you have a lot of circumstantial evidence it can become corroborating evidence. As seems to be the case here.
Forgive me lawyer-gaf if I'm talking out of my ass.
Dreams-Visions
Member
If you are the aggressor...and it can be proven you are the aggressor...you legally can't assert a self-defense defense in Florida. In fact, you can't even utter the words during the trial. That important matter will have to be established during the pre-trial motions.
empty vessel
Member
Well, based on what we know he would have had a right to use force, not necessarily deadly force, at least until Zimmerman pulled his weapon out, in which case he would have been justified in killing him. One question I'd like to know that will likely never be answered is whether Zimmerman had his gun out when he initiated contact with Martin.
Enron said:
First, you seem to think circumstantial evidence is not evidence. It is evidence, frequently the best kind. Second, the witness reports are not circumstantial evidence, they are direct evidence. They directly perceived the events in question (albeit through their ears).
Jim E. Rossler
Banned
You cant shoot anyone you get into a fight with if you instigated it
Stand your ground law means you dont have to run away, not that you can walk up to someone you dont like, punch them, and shoot them when they fight back
Dude Abides
Banned
That is not what circumstantial evidence means. Witness testimony about hearing the events is not circumstantial evidence. The best of the evidence against Zimmerman is that he shot and killed the victim. The only "evidence" in his favor is his claim of self-defense and his injuries, but the witness testimony rebuts that persuasively, and it is further undermined by his behavior before the incident. The standard for probable cause is whether there are sufficient facts to lead a reasonable person to believe a crime was committed. There is certainly enough here for an arrest and charge.
Where did I say it wasn't evidence? Circumstantial evidence has power especially when concrete evidence ties it together, or there's so much other similar circumstantial evidence.
Those witness reports ARE circumstantial evidence, and not direct evidence, because you have to infer details surrounding it to draw a conclusion. For example, had someone seen Zimmerman get out of his car, fight/struggle with this kid, then shoot him dead - that would be direct evidence because it would be enough to demonstrate what happened. Witness testimony that says "I heard some yelling, and a gunshot" or "I saw the kid dead on the ground" require the listener/reader to infer other details that may or may not have happened in order to say "this man murdered this kid in cold blood".
From wiki
In this case the witness testimony does not paint a clear picture of whether it was self-defense or not. You have to make a guess. Did the kid attack Zimmerman? Did Zimmerman attack the kid? Did the kid get the upper hand in the fight and put Zimmerman's life in danger? Did Zimmerman simply pull out his gun and shoot the kid without much of a struggle? The witness testimony so far points to a struggle, cries of help, and the gun going off. You still have to infer what happened. Unless a new witness comes forward in the FBI investigation with testimony that they saw the whole thing, which would be the direct evidence needed to corroborate all the other circumstantial pieces of testimony.
Mortrialus
Banned
Speaking of Zimmerman's alleged injuries, do we have any photos of him after the altercation took place? Did the police even bother to take any? If he had sustained any injury, you would think they would want to document that.
Dreams-Visions
Member
watched the Anderson Cooper video...their attorney worries the fuck out of me. I didn't like his angle or delivery at all. Not that he isn't a good lawyer (because he is)...but I would have preferred he took a different angle.
Big Baybee
Member
Man................Just stop.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Are you going to respond to my post? The initial 911 call is enough to establish probable cause. The same call they had before they responded to the crime scene, and wasn't released until there was public pressure and a meeting with the mayor/feds.
Again, these are facts that can be reasonably ascertained from Zimmerman's own words:
- Treyvon noticed him following him in his car
- Treyvon ran away from him
- George Zimmerman made the decision to pursue Treyvon, leaving his car and pursuing him on foot
- there was a "confrontation" between Zimmerman and Martin
- an unarmed minor, Treyvon Martin, was shot at point blank range, found dead at the scene
- Zimmerman admitted to being the shooter
This, in and of itself, establishes probable cause for an arrest. Even if every witness is lying through their teeth, even if you don't have audio recordings by 911 call and cell phone call of Treyvon's final moments (which aren't 'circumstantial' by any stretch of the imagination, but whatever), even with no drug or ballistics evidence, you have:
1) Motive
2) Opportunity
3) Murder weapon
4) Body
At that point, you arrest someone and let the prosecution and a jury establish reasonable doubt. Cops don't get to make that call with that kind of evidence. Every lawyer friend of mine that has weighed on on the matter on fb is appalled by this case.
Jim E. Rossler
Banned
...And he should and soon will be in jail?
It's because of the corrupt PD, not because of the law
Dreams-Visions
Member
correct. and let's not forget the clear-as-day screams for help in the 911 calls.
all coupled with the fact that Trayvon ran away paints a pretty fucking clear picture of who the aggressor was...and that aggressor will not be able to plead self-defense if Mr. Crump is as skilled as his history suggests he is.
But who would want to let the obvious get in the way of playing devil's advocate.
corrupt, incompetent, and racist.
We'll see. I don't think there's a guarantee of anything in this case considering he hasn't even been arrested yet and even if he was arrested and put on trial the highest charge/sentence he could get isn't even life imprisonment.
So there are police recordings. How is this guy not locked up yet? This is a hate crime. This piece of shit should be behind bars. You think if he was a black guy that he would be still on the street? His ass would be in lock up right now. This guy needs to be put to death.
And people say racism is dead. Motherfuckers like Zimmerman are just too scared of society to be their real selves. He had his gun and saw someone that to him represented a group of people that he hated, and decided to let out the bad feelings he has for a blacks on a kid. And still isn't behind bars. He's white though so they are trying to protect him.
And people say racism is dead. Motherfuckers like Zimmerman are just too scared of society to be their real selves. He had his gun and saw someone that to him represented a group of people that he hated, and decided to let out the bad feelings he has for a blacks on a kid. And still isn't behind bars. He's white though so they are trying to protect him.
Like the hat?
Banned
sad that I've seen more coverage on the freaking weather channel than anywhere else.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Just watching CNN, the Treyvon's father is holding a press conference later today and they are talking about the phone call.
Amazaing though no review if phone records, no physical evidence collected from Treyvon's clothing... Heads need to roll at that police dept.
Amazaing though no review if phone records, no physical evidence collected from Treyvon's clothing... Heads need to roll at that police dept.
Guys get off entirely too often when the victim is young and black.
Half the reason some are so irritated is because they've been in close proximity to something like this - a victim, and a really great guy.
Im sorry, do you think I am lying? You can go look up what is considered circumstantial and what isn't and you'll see the same thing I just pasted.
Maybe the FBI investigation will find evidence to to fill in the gaps, but the witness testimony they have thus far certainly is circumstantial.
There's a difference between circumstantial and corroborating.
Also, defending guys like Zimmerman is great look...
I'm not even DEFENDING him. Because I'm not saying OH MY GOD LOOK AT ALL THIS EVIDENCE WHAT THE FUCK ARREST HIM NOW means that I'm defending this guy, that I believe his self-defense story and that this black kid had it coming?
Even after I've said several times that I think this guy is guilty of at LEAST manslaughter? How many times do I have to fucking say it?
I'm just saying there's a lot of potential holes in the evidence collected so far and there's a whole lot of mad in this thread about it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
That's just not correct. Do you live in Florida? I do. He'll be up for 25 years -LIFE, most likely. If the prosecutor decides they can make a case for First Degree Murder, he could be up for the Death Penalty.
Personally, I think he'll probably be up for Murder-2 at this point. At one point, I thought maybe Voluntary Manslaughter, but not as it becomes more and more clear Zimmerman provoked the incident. But they may be able to get him for murder-1 if/when the pre-trial kills his ability to claim self-defense.
He intended to confront him. He intended to not let him get away. He ran after him, weapon ready. We hear pleas for help from the kid, that are not responded to by neighbors, and his voice forever silenced. I think he got out of that car with the intent to inflict grievous bodily harm upon a black face that he profiled into believing was a criminal (and he Batman) and just wanted a reason. Trayvon running/defending himself when cornered appears to be just the reason he needed to be a hero.
That's Murder in the First Degree all day long.
Second degree is a slam dunk (requiring no premeditation or plan), but First Degree may be where the truth lies.
PD incompetence, laziness, racism, and/or Zimmerman connections may have created all the holes Zimmerman's defense team will need to get away with murder. They've botched so many basic things that could have put the puzzle together faster and easier...and yet they seemingly did nothing correctly. It's baffling to see this many police missteps. It HAS to be intentional. No PD can be simply this incompetent. Too convenient an excuse to give to paid professionals.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Just now on CNN, the case is going to a Grand Jury. Meeting for state and Fed is Apr 10.
Dreams-Visions
Member
if it's to that point, then they believe they ALREADY have enough evidence to pursue.
They just got the case a few days ago, right?
DAT PUBLIC PRESSURE.
Aaronology
Member
There's more than enough evidence to arrest him, though. Whether or not it'll hold in trial is another matter but the outrageous part of this entire story is that Zimmerman is FREE. That's the point you seem to be ignoring. He was let go by a department that has a long history of this sort of behavior. It was only last year the former Sanford PD Chief had to step down after an eerily similar incident.
Dreams-Visions
Member
^^^^^^^^^^
That recording where he says,"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," and, "These niggers. They always get away." Show that there's no intent.
Open your eyes. He went after this kid with bad intent. He should be behind bars and waiting for the chair, injection or whatever. And he should be thrown in gen pop so that he can be face to face with the guys that fit the ideas that he holds of us. Let him puff his chest out to those guys. I'm sure he wants another chance to voice his frustrations in regards to black people.
You sue the department and get people fired. That's what the victim's family does.
Dreams-Visions
Member
He said "assholes".
Dreams, I was assuming the highest they would charge him with is manslaughter (Florida doesn't distinguish between voluntary and involuntary AFAIK). I mean he hasn't even been arrested yet, so it would be highly unusual if the charge ended up being first degree murder. It would suddenly make it more about the police department and not the actual crime itself.
That's fine, but your statement said IF. I am asking what IF NOT? Your original statement was worded in such a way that you seemed you were more worried by it being racially based than being a murder. If it is racially based he should go to jail, you said. I said, he should go to jail. You disagreed. I'm not following.
Lol I'm not THAT crazy.Ahhhh gotcha thought you were to link us to storm front or something
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The case is being taken out of their hands because they've either blatantly ignored or failed to collect relevant evidence from the shooter, the crime scene, the victim, and witnesses. Take that as you will.
You still haven't provided a logical reason that the initial 911 call does not provide probable cause. Even KHarvey could argue from a position of "we just don't know who approached who" before that evidence popped up.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I figured that's what you meant.
Indeed he hasn't been arrested, but it's clearly not for a lack of evidence. He hasn't been arrested because the Sanford PD didn't even bother trying. They didn't take blood/urine samples, they tried to correct whitenesses at the scene, they tried to hide 911 calls, they ran no background checks at the scene, they didn't secure Trayvon's phone records, and they seemingly didn't do any interviews. I wonder if they even bothered to take photos and samples of the scene or take pictures of Mr. Zimmerman at the station (photos which would indicate the severe beating he was taking which forced him to defend himself with his firearm).
If you're not going to do those things, then no...you won't be arresting him. But now the State is stepping in and appears to ALREADY be ready to make moves. I expect shit will go quite differently soon. But now the problem will be in how much evidence was lost by willful police mishandling of the case.
I agree that it's entirely possible that the police fucked up an reasonably easy Murder conviction by not giving any fucks about the victim. But when his "self-defense" argument is thrown out of court...who knows. Voluntary Manslaughter is the lowest possible conviction I see here. But my great preference is towards the pursuit of Murder-2. Murder-1 if they believe they can sell it.
soundahfekz
Member
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