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[Artadius]

What we're seeing in the TB video here is players having to rush over and revive fallen comrades, trigger environmental weapons, stack conditions, and defeat an enemy while protecting an NPC at the same time. While avoiding traps and keeping themselves alive. As he's saying, it's total chaos and being aware of what's going on is required of everyone.

Rushing over and reviving: Plenty of that in many MMOs. Not the same mechanically wise, but I acted as a teammate plenty of times by reacting to a situation and giving combat rezzes in many MMO fights.

Triggering environmental weapons: Seen plenty of cases where the environment was used to help you though a fight. Even variations on the theme like the bomb triggers at the last boss in Gnomeregan.

Stack conditions: No, that never happens. I remember raiding in vanilla wow where we had to strategize which debuffs were priority due to the broken limit on the number of bebuffs a mob could have. Stacking of conditions a sign of teamwork? Sure! GW2 unique on this? No!

Defeating an enemy while protecting an NPC? Done plenty of times before. While avoiding traps and keeping yourself alive. Sure.

MMOs up till now might be very formulaic, but they're not all completely static either. There are random elements almost everywhere.

In other words, you can't be a DPS class and spam rotations through the encounters and get out of the fire once in a while. Everyone needs everyone else and no single person can make or break the experience.

Sure looked like thats what was happening for much of TB's video today. I don't know what you saw, but I saw people throwing themselves at a fight until they brute forced their way through it by learning the formula to beat the encounters. You might not have a TANK per se... but you have someone tanking mobs at almost all times. Everyone is looking for visual clues on how to avoid damage. That guy at the end of the TB video. He whirlwinds. Don't stand in the whirlwind. I learned that on the first pull of Battleguard Sartura in AQ Temple. If your definition of teamwork is these people studying the fight, reacting to the events as they happen, adapting strategy to said events, and conquering the event through (possiblyl) repeated deaths and resets. Teamwork's been happening for a long time this way.

In a Diku-based MMO, once you learn the dance steps (move here, pull adds there, move back here, etc.) and meet the gear checks, the only thing standing in your way are the other members of your group getting it wrong. If they screw up, there's nothing you can do. Tank didn't step out of the fire? Wipe. Priest's internet went out? Wipe.

How is this any different than what we saw on that video? The guy playing in the video stood in whirlwind. Dead. He didn't react to other visual clues for big attacks from the boss. Dead. He didn't trigger the spike traps at opportune times, mobs got further into the group than they should have. Dead. When he screws up, he dies. When he doesn't screw up, he doesn't die. When you're a good team mate in any MMO, you're contributing to success. If you're not, you will usually cause failure.

I bet you anything those fights in that video are going to be almost exactly the same when you first do them and when I first do them no matter who you have in your party. I didn't see anything in the video that led me to believe that the fights aren't formulaic in any way and can't be 'beaten' with enough practice as to make it trivial.

I'm not harping on this game, I'm quite excited about it. But as I said earlier, there's a whole lot of hyperbole and hype in the thread as well as some unfair jabs at other products which have helped evolve the genre.

Saying teamwork didn't exist before GuildWars 2 is an idiotic statement and cheapens the honest teamwork which DID take place in plenty of games before now.

In GW2, you not only can step up, you must step up and play as a team.

I had to step up and play as a member of a team to finish content in The Realm way back in 1996. Its not a new concept to MMOs. You're free to your opinion... but opinions can be factually wrong.

 

[Mulligan]

The only case I can make for ever wanting to use a Resurrection Orb is if I fought my way deep into enemy territory and died, and trying to get back in would require fighting through a ton of respawns. In that case, the only thing a resurrection orb does is saves you is the time fighting back to where you were.

To me, I'd rather face down the challenge and fight my way back through, but I can see how some people might look at the same situation and say "Damnit, I need to go to bed / get ready for work soon, I don't have another hour to spend fighting my way in there". In that case, it's a quality-of-life issue, to save on frustration.

The game already has the most accessible res system in any MMO though, with all classes being able to res. It's not as bad as people are making out as i'm sure there will be a fairly long cooldown to stop people chaining them, (if there isn't then it's a terrible idea) but it's still feels quite cheap and shouldn't really be in the game.

 

[flyinpiranha]

I disagree; the fact that everyone has their own very specific role, their own part of the formula to follow, and that some of those roles are unique to each situation (Main Tank, for example) while others are just there to pump damage makes it less of a team effort and more of an elaborate dance.

MMO combat to this point has been very binary; you meet the gear requirements or you don't. You perform the required steps and win or you don't and wipe. If something goes wrong and it's not something you did directly, there's nothing you could have done differently to change that. If you want an analogy, baseball requires that the players pitch and catch, that there is a relationship between, say, the shortstop and the third baseman to recognize the state of the field, pitch the ball to the right place in the right wat and catch it to stop a run. Both guys are involved directly. An MMO is pretty much everyone just pitching all the time and hoping nobody else's aim is off.

Hoping the other guys in your raid don't screw up isn't teamwork. It's synchronized button pushing. To me, you really have to stretch the definition of 'teamwork' to include that kind of gameplay.

Doesn't this take out the teamwork? If anybody can do anything there really isn't a team. You speak of baseball but there are people who always play 1st, home, catcher, you don't see a 3rd baseman as a pitcher. You don't see your slowest guy as a pinch runner. Same with any sport, there are specific specialties.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't believe "everybody can do anything" is going to change much of the dynamic of the team. You'll still have a job to run over and take the catapult out whether you were "DPS" or a "Healer" or w/e your label would be.

Hoping the other person doesn't screw up is EXACTLY what a "team" is. You're all part of the success, in every single team I've been on from basketball to a raid in the back of your head you ALWAYS think "oh man, I hope _____ can pull this off!" whether it's a 3 pointer or just staying out of the damn fire!

You take away that dependence on your teammates and you no longer have a team. You have 20 people doing something. I know that's not how GW2 is going to turn out but it basically is the same exact team aspect except now you don't need a specific type of class for a specific job, all the other rules still apply: communication, execution, and determination will still determine your success just like any other MMO full of raiders.

This sums up what I was going to say. Thank you. I've DPS'd WoW raids for 3 years and Tanked them for 3 years and what I've gathered is if you have the gear check and do the dance, you win. Everyone is running parallel with each other towards the same goal, but never actually interacting with one another beyond the healer healing people, but that's required. If I do my job as a tank(which is painfully easy as the skill ceiling is SO low), what everyone else is doing doesn't mean very much to me at all, I keep the mobs on me and move every X seconds or whatever the dance entails. Doesn't matter what the DPS next to me is doing as long as they're pumping out their rotation and doing their dance, doesn't matter what the healer is doing as long as they're healing everyone and doing their dance. Doesn't matter what I'm doing as the tank as long as I got the mobs on me and I'm doing my dance. Same goal, but COMPLETELY disconnected from each other. That's the easiest way to describe it. Even when there's fights where groups have to move as one, the individual is still doing their part of the dance and there's nothing anyone can do to save them if they fail because it's all so binary.

I've raided with you once or twice and you know this to be wrong. Even in 40 man Naxx back in the day it was A LOT more complicated than that. We used the 8 tank rotation on the 4 hoursmen and you had groups of people that had to rotate. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be. It matters completely what you're doing as a tank. Are you facing your healers so AOE is hitting them? Are your healers keeping up the others not getting poisons/stacks of w/e on them? Is DPS getting infected, causing an AOE issue for the rest? Sounds to me you're just burnt out re-running the same instances LOL!

What makes GW2 so different from these encounters? Doesn't person X still have a job? I'm assuming 29 people can't try and kill the one catapult while the boss is not being touched. It seems like the same mechanics but the person doing the job can be different. That doesn't equate to different team mechanics, it equates to different reactions to a specific situation. Much like when a main tank would drop and 3 rogues could use evasion to get that last 4% on a boss.

I guess I just don't see how GW2 makes other MMO's and their style irrelevant besides the holy trinity. It seems they are just making it so you can say "LF30M Raid on _____" without having to designate what you need. Everybody will still have a role to fill and communication will have to be done. At least in the guilds I was in in WoW there was always a pretty high level of communication so I guess mileage may differ.

EDIT: Thought I'd add I LOVE what they are trying for, I don't want the healer/tank/DPS aspect anymore as it made people lazy in their class at times. I think this change is extremely welcome by many including me. I just don't see how it really changes the core aspect of a raiding guild or something like that. Much like how people would have alts to fill roles in WoW it's almost like it's the same thing, only no alts are needed this round.

 

[Arken2121]

The tune we'll all be playing(to be successful) will be different according to our styles, the way we spread our trait points and our overall weapon choice. It'll be a matter of how we're comfortable with our styles to use them in, improve upon them in combat and hopefully, master how they work. This combined with dodging will provide way a myriad of play styles that will(hopefully) be fit for most if not everyone.

 

[GasProblem]

When will we be seeing press footage of the upcoming beta, monday?

 

[GrizzNKev]

When will we be seeing press footage of the upcoming beta, monday?

Yep.

 

[Arken2121]

When will we be seeing press footage of the upcoming beta, monday?

Hoping by then the press will retain some of their experience and learn from it to show us how combat should really be.

 

[Arment]

The press coverage is going to be a thousand times better this time around.

They've seen the game a bit. They've had weeks to think about what they'll do this time around. So I'm definitely excited to see some of this stuff.



After watching this video I'm concerned about the average player and their skills. I find myself raging in League of Legends because every game my bottom lane gets demolished, imagine the rage when you can't beat a boss because people are trying to tank and spank it.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Maybe it will be better optimized this time around. I remember a lot of the video's were on low settings due to some issues.

 

[birdchili]

in theory, the lack of aggro-control skills will make things less predictable combat-wise. you're still going to have well coordinated groups turning things into a series of steps to follow... unless there's a huge amount of randomness i suspect that this will be unavoidable.

i do hope combat tends to the chaotic with a ton of thinking-on-your-feet required, but the main evidence we have so far is a bunch of noobs playing poorly and anet saying how awesome it is

(getting rid of "tank" skills, player targeting, and healing-responsible-classes all seem like pretty smart design decisions, frankly)

 

[Arment]

Maybe it will be better optimized this time around. I remember a lot of the video's were on low settings due to some issues.

Really? I thought the scenery in some of the yogcast videos looked...off.

 

[Jira]

Really? I thought the scenery in some of the yogcast videos looked...off.

Most videos were running Low or Med settings due to Fraps causing severe FPS issues. Curse network ran on High I think and got shit FPS due to Fraps, but released the footage anyways. With no recording software on, things ran fine.

 

[Arment]

Most videos were running Low or Med settings due to Fraps causing severe FPS issues. Curse network ran on High I think and got shit FPS due to Fraps, but released the footage anyways. With no recording software on, things ran fine.

That's a huge relief. I hope that's fixed for this weekend. I want to see this game in its full glory.

 

[SteveWD40]

I wondered why 90% of the footage had shadows off...

 

[NobleXenon]

That would fit the pattern they established with GW1. I can see them not adding free slots if the expansion doesn't add a new profession though.

And while $10 is reasonable, I'm looking forward to bankrolling my alt characters with my main. That such an option even exists is awesome.

That's really the biggest draw for me of the gem system; it isn't just "Give us your monies or you don't get all of these neat things." You can play the game as you normally would and still have access to cash shop items.

That said, I know damn well I'll probably buy gems a couple of times at least.

If not new professions, maybe new races like the Tengu and Naga from Cantha?

 

[Retro]

I kinda feel like I'm running out of ways to explain this any clearer and we're quickly moving into the realm of "We just don't know because we haven't played it yet", so I'm going to try to make this the last big response along this line of discussion and ease into 'agreeing to disagree' mode because we have no way of testing the theory or knowing all the facts.

And because if I keep this up much longer, I'll be late picking my wife up from work.

Doesn't this take out the teamwork? If anybody can do anything there really isn't a team. You speak of baseball but there are people who always play 1st, home, catcher, you don't see a 3rd baseman as a pitcher. You don't see your slowest guy as a pinch runner. Same with any sport, there are specific specialties.

The point of the baseball analogy is that the players are not parallel to each other; the shortstop has to throw to third and the third baseman has to catch. Their role and actions intersect, interacting as two people to get one task done; get the ball to third base before the runner does. In a traditional MMO, the tank does his thing and the healer does her thing; their roles are parallel to each other and they have their own steps to follow. They never do anything that approaches interaction (merely synchronization) with each other, because the roles are so narrowly defined. Just because they're moving out of the fire at the same time does not mean they're moving as a team. Without one the other fails, but they're not doing anything that requires a response from the other.

Using your basketball analogy, everyone is thinking "I hope ______ can pull this off", but the game of basketball requires one person to say "I hope he receives my pass" and the other to say "I hope he passes well enough that I can receive" at some point in the game. In "MMO-sketball", everyone has their own ball and their own hoop and hopes the other guys can make their throws. And that's the entire game.

Because everyone in GW2 has access to at least some degree of control, support and damage, and all at the same time, encounters can be designed with the idea that everyone is responsible for some degree of control, support and damage at all times. All of the processions intersect with each other, meaning teamwork (not just rote memorization of who goes where when) is required. That means encounters can be designed with less formula and more problem solving; assess, act, react.

Watch the videos; mobs are constantly on the move and doing things that aren't in the script, and while their behavior can be predicted it never controlled for very long because there's no artificial aggro mechanic that only tanks get. Instead, that's broken up across every single class and thus, every single player. Because every player has that capacity, every player has that responsibility, and encounters can be designed that embrace that dynamic. Everyone has to do their part to keep the enemy under control, even if it sometimes looks like a game of keep-away (After all, that's what combat is; maneuvering until you have an advantage you can press without giving your enemy an advantage against you).

I'm sure the theorycrafters will come up with an optimal method for defeating bosses, but whereas in Diku-MMOs you absolutely must follow the mechanic dance steps the fight is built around, GW2 is about making running changes throughout the fight.

 

[BrettWeir]

That whole TB Cata video I kept hoping I would see the Tomb Guardian as the final boss. Loving this Ghosts of Ascalon book.

I saw that people are getting emails about beta starting at 12 PST tomorrow. I wonder if media and non-media start at the same time?

This is where I saw it:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/r7rse/official_this_weekends_closed_beta_starts_at/

 

[DarkKyo]

Game interests me due to the hype and the art style but the gameplay looks confusing to me... I got into the beta though so I'll have to see how it feels hands-on. Probably could have sent the key they sent me to someone more deserving but either way I'm really into trying new MMOs so I look forward to seeing how it plays.

 

[BrettWeir]

Please edit your post

Come on, man......

 

[Arment]

Community thread tomorrow?

 

[Jira]

Game interests me due to the hype and the art style but the gameplay looks confusing to me... I got into the beta though so I'll have to see how it feels hands-on. Probably could have sent the key they sent me to someone more deserving but either way I'm really into trying new MMOs so I look forward to seeing how it plays.

Whhhhy :-(

 

[razgriz417]

Game interests me due to the hype and the art style but the gameplay looks confusing to me... I got into the beta though so I'll have to see how it feels hands-on. Probably could have sent the key they sent me to someone more deserving but either way I'm really into trying new MMOs so I look forward to seeing how it plays.

...

 

[DarkKyo]

Come on, man......

I already created the beta account with it awhile ago so its not like I could just hand the invite over anymore. Also pretty sure giving a beta account to someone else is against NDA, no?

Edit: damn looks like I just became a very hated user... trust me there are plenty of betas I would have loved to be invited to but noobs got invites instead, so I know how it feels.

 

[razgriz417]

From the GW2 Twitter...

Okay guys, if you did not get a beta key by now, you will not be in the test this weekend. Thanks for being patient! ~RB2

T.T

 

[Ferrio]

I already created the beta account with it awhile ago so its not like I could just hand the invite over anymore. Also pretty sure giving a beta account to someone else is against NDA, no?

Edit: damn looks like I just became a very hated user... trust me there are plenty of betas I would have loved to be invited to but noobs got invites instead, so I know how it feels.

Worst of all you broke the NDA.

GOD DAMMIT GOD DAMMIT GOD DAMMIT GOD DAMMIT GOD DAMMIT

You broke the rules! You broke the rules, everybody is going to be mad because you broke the rules. Noooooooooo. You broke the rules, you can't fix it! God dammit!

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NylmdC_uEM

 

[BrettWeir]

Also pretty sure giving a beta account to someone else is against NDA, no?

Did you read your agreement? Admitting you're in the beta is against the NDA. This is a very public and popular forum.

You're not hated. Just.....please edit (at least) your prior posts.

Neogaf needs as many in beta as possible to help with any info possible.

 

[Arment]

I already created the beta account with it awhile ago so its not like I could just hand the invite over anymore. Also pretty sure giving a beta account to someone else is against NDA, no?

Edit: damn looks like I just became a very hated user... trust me there are plenty of betas I would have loved to be invited to but noobs got invites instead, so I know how it feels.

No one hates you because of not giving the invite away. There's an NDA in effect and the community is trying to adhere to it so we can get some community invites.

They're probably a bit jelly too though

 

[Retro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NylmdC_uEM

This is amazing.

Grats to the guy who should edit his posts on getting in though.

 

[Maffis]

I can't believe I didn't get invited to the beta. Fuck ArenaNet, they obviously don't want my money.

Spoiler

I'm gonna roll an Engineer when the game launches

 

[Arment]

I can't believe I didn't get invited to the beta. Fuck ArenaNet, they obviously don't want my money.

Spoiler

I'm gonna roll an Engineer when the game launches

Something like 40,000~ people out of 1,000,000+ got in. Those are some extreme odds.

 

[BrettWeir]

I can't believe I didn't get invited to the beta. Fuck ArenaNet, they obviously don't want my money.

Spoiler

I'm gonna roll an Engineer when the game launches

Engineers unite! Well, and Thieves......

Something like 40,000~ people out of 1,000,000+ got in. Those are some extreme odds.

Where did you get this info?

 

[squidyj]

Engineers have the best armor. They look so boss.

 

[Arment]

Where did you get this info?

From people that know the view count on the download instruction post in the beta forums. It's a rough estimate really.

The 1,000,000 number is from ArenaNet themselves. They claim over a million people signed up for the beta.

 

[Artadius]

People are harping on that guy to edit his post for saying he's in the beta but we'll repost leaked / data mined shop info alllll dayyyyy longggggg.

Wow.

Something like 40,000~ people out of 1,000,000+ got in. Those are some extreme odds.

I wonder how many of that 40k unique hits. That is likely a view count.

 

[Ashodin]

I just got into the beta!

Spoiler

For family guy online, that is.

 

[Helmholtz]

From the GW2 Twitter...



T.T

No beta for me. I thought I'd be more disappointed but meh, I think I can wait. Dota 2 is doing a good job of keeping me busy these days.

 

[Arment]

People are harping on that guy to edit his post for saying he's in the beta but we'll repost leaked / data mined shop info alllll dayyyyy longggggg.

Wow.

Personally I think there's a difference between breaking the NDA personally and posting stuff people found already. It's all over gw2guru anyway. And it isn't datamined. It's from a website the beta testers can access.

Difficult line to walk, lol.

I wonder how many of that 40k unique hits. That is likely a view count.

It is. But I also wonder how many haven't even viewed it yet. It's definitely a very rough estimate.

 

[Ashodin]

Personally I think there's a difference between breaking the NDA personally and posting stuff people found already. It's all over gw2guru anyway. And it isn't datamined. It's from a website the beta testers can access.

We just lookin' out for our bros.

 

[Artadius]

We just lookin' out for our bros.

Does ANet have access to the NeoGAF user database?

 

[Arment]

A problem with NDAs that don't allow you to profess your beta invite status is that it creates that huge elephant in the room. How would any GAF member find another to play in game? Kind of annoying and in my opinion unnecessary.

 

[Dead Prince]

Does ANet have access to the NeoGAF user database?

let's be honest. theres probably a snitch here and who knows if there's an anet dev/CM here ;P

 

[Arken2121]

I hope you enjoy the book, Brett. Let me know what you think when you finish.

 

[Retro]

I hope you enjoy the book, Brett. Let me know what you think when you finish.

I myself am about halfway through after only an hour or two. I didn't realize it was only 300 pages. So far the writing is a little meh but I'm probably spoiled by ASoIaF. It's performing the function I bought it for though (A refresher on GW lore) so I'm enjoying it.

 

[Arment]

I myself am about halfway through after only an hour or two. I didn't realize it was only 300 pages. So far the writing is a little meh but I'm probably spoiled by ASoIaF, but it's performing the function I bought it for; a GW history review.

Yeah the writing is a bit basic I'm finding. It's still fulfilling the history lesson purpose nicely though.

 

[Artadius]

let's be honest. theres probably a snitch here and who knows if there's an anet dev/CM here ;P

So this snitch or anet dev/CM has access to the NeoGAF user database so they can match up that person's email address with the email address of their beta registrants?

Just trying to make sure I understand this hypothetical situation which makes no sense.

 

[boosh5]

So this snitch or anet dev/CM has access to the NeoGAF user database so they can match up that person's email address with the email address of their beta registrants?

Just trying to make sure I understand this hypothetical situation which makes no sense.

If only my GAF email was the same as the one I registered for the beta with. Hypothetically, I would be boned.

 

[Retro]

Yeah the writing is a bit basic I'm finding. It's still fulfilling the history lesson purpose nicely though.

There have only really been two or three parts where I have to re-read something just because the writing is a little off or overwrought. The biggest issue for me is that it packs a lot of world building early on so it reads like an explanation of a video game world rather than a natural-sounding exposition of a fantasy world. Like somebody at ArenaNet was saying "You need to explain what that is more".

Maybe it's just me.

So this snitch or anet dev/CM has access to the NeoGAF user database so they can match up that person's email address with the email address of their beta registrants?

Just trying to make sure I understand this hypothetical situation which makes no sense.

I think people are just trying to avoid giving the impression that NeoGAF doesn't care about NDAs, whether they can be traced or not. Leaked stuff from the internet is one thing, but actively breaching the NDA is another. Whether someone is watching or not, it feels like GAF should be better than that.

 

[Trey]

What book is this?

 

[Arken2121]

I myself am about halfway through after only an hour or two. I didn't realize it was only 300 pages. So far the writing is a little meh but I'm probably spoiled by ASoIaF. It's performing the function I bought it for though (A refresher on GW lore) so I'm enjoying it.

That's all it really is but there's a little adventure within which is really nice. I do enjoy the whole fellowship story while getting past racial differences.

Edit: Ghosts of Ascalon Trey

 

[Trey]

Edit: Ghosts of Ascalon Trey

Ah. It was better than EoD.