On one post I see how the police fucked this up and ignored it, then I see a post where the police wanted to prosecute but the DA stopped it because of lack of evidence to convict.
Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
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On one post I see how the police fucked this up and ignored it, then I see a post where the police wanted to prosecute but the DA stopped it because of lack of evidence to convict.
Baconsammy
Banned
Yeah, sounds like the police wanted to make an arrest but were hamstrung by Florida's awesome laws.
Originally all that was available was the police saying that they didn't have enough evidence. Now we know that they WANTED to arrest, but they were told they didn't have enough evidence by the DA - if they felt they had a case, they should have continued their investigation and found more evidence, not closed the case. Thus, the police is STILL to blame a bit, but not entirely.
Kacho
Gold Member
It's kinda gettin there, sadly.
Zoe
Member
Well, there is the whole corruption angle now, which many of us suspected in the beginning...
Yet you post things like this:
You say you're trying to play down the "racial angle", but you have contributed to it yourself. You're just as bad as the people you're complaining about.No one rioted when he walked free.
The police chief was in charge of the messaging when this started to get national attention, and he left no doubt in the final decision of the department. I don't blame him for that specifically, it would be pretty horrible policy to air the dirty laundry and internal disagreements of their investigations. It just so happens that the final report looked like shoddy police work.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Wear the right clothing, this doesn't happen...
Xenon
Member
His punisher style needs some work. It's bad form to call 911 when you plan to gun someone down in a vigilante rage.
How about you post what that was in response to? Instead of taking it out of context. Someone posted right after me, a picture of Casey Anthony. Maybe you should read the page and see what we were referring to.
Because I know you wont, we were referring to murderers who go off free. Thats really a good analogy for me to make of Zimmerman (who you think I want to go free), an analogy to a murderer who got off.
Zoe
Member
Racism doesn't have to be a factor in the police force when the corruption runs strong.
Earthstrike
Member
One thing I'm wondering about all this.
Did the police ever investigate and/or make inferences from trayvon's phone? What I mean is, what about where the phone is relative to where his body was found? If they are a far distance apart we know some kind of chase occurred from the initial drop no?
And what about the trajectory of the bullet? If zimmerman is claiming trayvon was on top of him when he shot him, then it should be true that the bullet wouldn't be found at the crime scene. Otherwise you might able to do something like take a powerful metal detector and possibly find the bullet in a lawn. Or even just find the bullet somewhere. Why does it seem like there are a lot of details we don't have access too? Did the police even investigate?
Did the police ever investigate and/or make inferences from trayvon's phone? What I mean is, what about where the phone is relative to where his body was found? If they are a far distance apart we know some kind of chase occurred from the initial drop no?
And what about the trajectory of the bullet? If zimmerman is claiming trayvon was on top of him when he shot him, then it should be true that the bullet wouldn't be found at the crime scene. Otherwise you might able to do something like take a powerful metal detector and possibly find the bullet in a lawn. Or even just find the bullet somewhere. Why does it seem like there are a lot of details we don't have access too? Did the police even investigate?
Not saying that's what he did - but why not? If I call cops in advance and say "Something is wrong, come as quick as you can I am afraid for my life" And then I go shoot someone - people would be all "Oh he was apparently afraid for his life, too bad the police didn't come in time".
That's the smart kind of vigilantism!
He seems to have an agenda. This case is very much about race, whether people want to deny it or not.
What it was in response to is irrelevant. They were talking about riots and made no mention of race. If you weren't trying to bring race into it why didn't post a picture of Robert Blake? He was acquitted of murder and no one rioted about that.
They seem to have investigated a bit, got enough to be like "Mr. DA, we should probably arrest this guy, something doesn't add up" and the DA was all "Nah, don't worry about it!" And they probably just shrugged their shoulders and closed the case at that point - I am guessing without doing all that other forensic digging.
The Incarnation
Member
That much is obvious, he's just another version of one of those plebs who got banned earlier in the thread...
Because I was responding to, like someone else did, about a murderer getting off free and there not being riots. And when I think of a murderer who got off free, thats one of the first cases who popped in my head...Oh no I guess Im a racist now because a black man popped in my head. My god, at least be fair in your criticisms of me.
Wait a sec, this is seriously what Zimmerman said???
Can I get a link from somebody on this?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Police corruption comes later, ma'am. And while I agree that race doesn't have to be a factor for the police to be and act shitty, we have a long, storied history in the country (that continues to be written) that certainly points to race being a factor in the lack of diligence. If you wish to believe this sort of situation--and the specific way it has played out--would have happened if the 17 year-old was a typical thin white 17 year old, we'll have to agree to disagree. If you'd like to read some books on the reason why I'm skeptical of race playing *no role* as it appears you wish to contend, I'm happy to recommend some. But I warn you, they will be thick reads and long books full of pure study and information. And I would not expect you to read them.
Now with specific regard to the first post you responded to in our side conversation here: I was talking about why Zimmerman decided he appeared to be worthy of reporting. Not what the police did afterwards. It appears to me that profiling had a lot to do with him decide to follow and phone Martin in.
JCreasy
Member
The NRA is selling hooded sweatshirts now, with the concealed compartment for a semiautomatic
http://bit.ly/HbREIQ
http://bit.ly/HbREIQ
It definitely has become about race. But, I believe, at the time it went down, race was maybe a subconscious motive in Zimmermans head, at the most.
echoshifting
Banned
never mind, not worth it
Dreams-Visions
Member
in4one
Wait a sec, this is seriously what Zimmerman said???
Can I get a link from somebody on this?
http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-george-zimmermans-story-may-not-hold-up-to-scrutiny.php
This is his current story, which we can see has changed from the original - the link goes into detail as to why this seems unlikely.
The Incarnation
Member
Of course, calling a black lad he has never met a coon blissfully hints at the arrangement of his subconscious. One full of stereotypical imagery.
Race was definitely an explicit factor for Zimmerman. The people he had caught in the 2011 robbery were black, and his 911 calls later that year reporting people who were possibly involved were all about black people. His 911 call about Martin also mentioned that he was possibly involved in earlier robberies.
But Zimmerman was specifically looking for black people because black people were involved in a specific incident. Beyond that is speculation, though some of that speculation is informed.
Oh so now you're a victim... and really do you think we're that stupid that we don't get what you were trying to say with that picture. I never called you a racist for posting a picture of OJ. I said you were doing what you are complaining about everyone else doing.
Anyone have a link of where zimmerman supposedly asked Trayvon about whether he lived in the area or not and he said "no" followed by him saying "well you do now" and the punching him in the face? And if so wouldn't that be like the 3rd or fourth time hes completely changed his story of what happened?
OG_Original Gamer
Member
I think what happen, is Zimmerman didn't give up on following Trayvon. Zimmerman history in dialing 911, always suggested that these supicious teenagers were gaining access to the community through a back gate. Zimmerman then proceeded to go to that back gate. Zimmerman then approached Trayvon, argument starts, when Trayvon hits Zimmerman knocking him to the ground, causing him to hit the back of his head. In order for this to happen Zimmerman has to be in close proximity to Trayvon, this would suggest that Zimmerman may have tried to detain him. The moment, IMO, Zimmerman decided to follow Trayvon he made himself suspicious to Trayvon. Making him responsible for whatever outcome that occurs, good or bad, because at that point he has already justified his actions to himself. By caring a firearm, Zimmerman determined that he is willing to harm or kill if need be. What is a fact? Is the majority of Americans respond differently to a law enforcement officer in uniform, then one that is not in uniform. So what is the obvious reponse to a stranger, playing cop? Who isn't wearing a security uniform.
Xenon
Member
True but if people are going to start thinking of every possible scenario why limit it to things that can implicate Zimmerman?
Because it's based on the things that Zimmerman did leading up to the altercation with Trayvon as well as his criminal past. What dirt do you have on Trayvon?
The Incarnation
Member
How can you think that's what happened when Zimmerman himself said he was hit on the back of his head, jumped as you will.
Somehow you've taken his lie, and tried to twist it to make it seem like something else, which incidentally makes Zimmerman look better, but still a liar.
Well in this particular instance, I don't think anyone here thinks that he went out with the intention to kill - that's first degree murder. No one is really sure of what happened exactly, but - a lot evidence shows his self defence story is bull - so all that's left is anything but self-defence, for example second degree or manslaughter.
Really, the situation seems to heavily support that Zimmerman did something wrong - what he did wrong exactly is still up for grabs, but defending his constantly changing stories isn't being impartial, it's being deluded.
Im not a victim, and I genuinely posted that picture in response to another post, and someone right after me posted a picture of casey anthony. It wasn't because he was black, but believe what you will. Theres no way I can try and defend that and convince you of anything. Someone posted that their will be massive riots if a murderer gets off, and I (and someone else) posted where that wasn't the case. Im constantly played down the racial angle in all my posts, that's why I responded so much to that "the white man will never respect a black mans rights" article. I thought, and still think, its bullshit.
Whatever maybe Im one of the privileged whites, and I just don't see it. But I think its bullshit when I hear people reference some massive white system where white people collectively try to hold back black people. I just dont see things that way. Im getting off topic again though, take my post for what you will, I tried to clarify it as best as possible.
Some quick questions - this isn't being snarky, but maybe it'll help you understand. Lets say, for sake of argument, that the conspiracy to hold back black people no longer is held by anyone in power.
1. Do you think it ever was? Like in the United states 3+ decades ago?
2. If yes to 1, do you think all that legislation and infrastructure built in for all those years is all gone now? Or would we still be feeling the effects?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Would you be interested in reading studies that might illuminate your perspective? It will be long, didactic and boring...but it will be illuminating.
Obviously yes it was, but those laws are changed. Those people who made those laws are (mostly) dead. We are basically a generation ahead of those people. I know there are racist people. I know cops profile. But I dont see a system set up to do so. It is illegal to profile. It is illegal to discriminate someone on race. So on and so forth. Just because a law disproportionately affects a certain race (ie drug laws), doesn't mean the law is inherently a racist law.
Xenon
Member
I am not doing that. I just found the punisher comment silly.
As far as the changing stories, so much misinformation has been given about this case. Who knows what was said. considering many of Zimmerman's earlier statements were second hand. Once the police report from that night is released we will know what his initial statement was.
The conversation was about rioting based on perceived racial injustice. Nice try though.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Would you like something to read? Or do you just kinda want to hold fast to your beliefs regardless?
Well, thinking that all the effects of that deeply ingrained discrimination should no longer be felt is a bit of a... stretch. But okay. How about just one point.
What effect does being arrested, even for drug possession have on someone's livelihood? What sort of trickle down effect would it have on a minority community if they were unjustly targeted and incarcerated for generations?
1. Harder to get jobs, leads to a life of poverty or more crime.
2. No money to pass down to other generations, a huge and important point.
3. A reduction of 'upstanding' parental figures, as the parental figures are still suffering the consequences of institutionalized discrimination.
pm me some links.
Also I feel like Im derailing this thread again. I should back off, and the focus back on the case.
Well, it's been leaked - and the response from the PD is essentially "Fuck, we hate it when people leak stuff" not "That is a fake leak" - so we know what his original claim was. And we can see how that differs from his current claim. And we also can point out how both claims are pretty much entirely unlikely.
but mostly boring
If the altercation indeed ended in between the two houses, then how the hell can Zimmerman have been jumped from behind by Trayvon while walking back to his car while looking for directions in a neighborhood he's lived in for years, and somehow doesn't know his way around it?
This isn't the chicken fight from Family Guy, with Trayvon and Zimmerman battling all over the city. The evidence, and location of Trayvon's body spells out what happened rather clearly.
This isn't the chicken fight from Family Guy, with Trayvon and Zimmerman battling all over the city. The evidence, and location of Trayvon's body spells out what happened rather clearly.
Dreams-Visions
Member
will do, sir.
quite a bit of that. but such is the nature of academic reading.
You know how hard it can be to see those people after dark!
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