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The Demise Of Guys? (TED Talk)

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marrec said:
So fixing a leaky faucet makes you man now too?
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You're missing the point. Doing things that need to be done makes you a responsible adult, which a large portion of men of the Me Generation are not.

It's why the idiotic "Men's Rights" movement isn't that surprising; they want society to coddle them just like mommy and daddy used to.
 
Apophenia Overload said:
It was, once.
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Yeah. It's the context of it though. I doubt there were any Spartans crying on the battlefield for instance. Of course simply stating 'boys don't cry' is a social construct. It is very much a concept. As I mentioned in another thread though, it seems to me about making yourself appear strong. Crying is a sign of weakness. If you were punched in the face and you burst out crying, the attacker would see that as a sign of weakness.

It goes beyond simply crying though. It is perhaps about making yourself appear strong and big both physically and metaphorically as a form of intimidation. To nullify a potential threat.

You know, nurture in itself is strangely paradoxical. Nurture is the most natural thing you can do. Most animals nurture their offspring. A lion's cub has to watch its mother to learn how to hunt, yet the impulse to hunt is very much an instinctual thing. Of course our brains are basically in learning mode in our early years. The very reason for that is so we absorb that crucial training and learning to give us the best possible chance for survival. Perhaps we're hard-wired to observe and learn from other people of the same gender.

I mean even language is a social construct, yet the act of communicating is one of the most natural things we can do. All languages are different. All languages are changing and evolving. The act of creating a language, a way in which to communicate, is a natural process though.

Nurture and nature are very much entwined in our nature.
 
90sRobots said:
You're missing the point. Doing things that need to be done makes you a responsible adult, which a large portion of men of the Me Generation are not.

It's why the idiotic "Men's Rights" movement isn't that surprising; they want society to coddle them just like mommy and daddy used to.
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... That isn't even what the Men's Rights Movement is about? What are you referring to?
 
Everything I know about being a man I learned from Mulan and Steve "I'll pay someone to carry the oranges up the stairs" Smith on American Dad

Feels like I'm in pretty good shape
 
90sRobots said:
You're missing the point. Doing things that need to be done makes you a responsible adult, which a large portion of men of the Me Generation are not.

It's why the idiotic "Men's Rights" movement isn't that surprising; they want society to coddle them just like mommy and daddy used to.
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Doing things that need to be done involves many thing. A dude living alone should be able to Darn a sock, cause that's something that needs to be done.
 
Mumei said:
... That isn't even what the Men's Rights Movement is about? What are you referring to?
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It's about a lot of things, but it's mostly about butthurt men grasping for straws in what is very much still "A Man's World". Posting links about male human trafficking as if it illustrates some meaningful point is hilariously dumb.
marrec said:
Doing things that need to be done involves many thing. A dude living alone should be able to Darn a sock, cause that's something that needs to be done.
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Well yeah. Men who think they're "too manly" to know how to sew a button are insecure morons.
 
90sRobots said:
You're missing the point. Doing things that need to be done makes you a responsible adult, which a large portion of men of the Me Generation are not.
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Citation please. I'd like some kind of source on the actual statistics backing up a claim that one generation is significantly behaviorally different from another.
 
I think all we can do is strive for a better way of living. We have the gift of being able to look outside of nature. Being able to contradict nature is funnily enough a part of our nature. Looking at men, women, different races and creeds as equals is what reason and morality dictates is the best thing we can do. Sometimes things don't work out as planned, but it doesn't mean we should stop trying. This is what it is to be human.
 
Go do some digging; my statement was largely based on anecdotals and I don't really feel like looking up NYT articles. It's not like I'm the only person who has this belief. Fuck, Judd Apatow made a whole movie about it:

220px-Knockedupmp.jpg
 
90sRobots said:
Go do some digging; my statement was largely based on anecdotals and I don't really feel like looking up NYT articles. It's not like I'm the only person who has this belief. Fuck, Judd Apatow made a whole movie about it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/51/Knockedupmp.jpg/220px-Knockedupmp.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

No, you're not. Lots of people have that belief. Lots of people have always had that belief. For thousands of years. The younger generation always seems lazy and self centered.
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90sRobots said:
Go do some digging; my statement was largely based on anecdotals and I don't really feel like looking up NYT articles. It's not like I'm the only person who has this belief. Fuck, Judd Apatow made a whole movie about it:

220px-Knockedupmp.jpg
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Good point, fathers never bailed on pregnant women before this generation.
 
90sRobots said:
Go do some digging; my statement was largely based on anecdotals and I don't really feel like looking up NYT articles. It's not like I'm the only person who has this belief. Fuck, Judd Apatow made a whole movie about it:

220px-Knockedupmp.jpg
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I don't think referencing a comedy starring Seth Rogen is going to help your point.
 
Hawkian said:
Holy ignorance. What kind of leave it to beaver, ozzie and harriet trip to nonexistant nuclear American TV land are you?
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The point I was trying to make is that there were guidelines. I don't agree with the way gender roles were at that point in time, but everyone knew their role.

Crappy analogy to follow:
If I stick someone in a factory with zero instructions of what they are supposed to do, how the equipment works, and what the finished project looks like, what do you think they will do? Especially if they get paid regardless? Then you send them to work for someone else and they are completely blindside by what's expected of them and quit.
Crappy analogy over.

Young people need guidelines of what's expected of them in society. Leave gender out of it and just make it a basic instruction manual. Someday we'll all be on the same page as to what that manual should have in it. But between gender inequality, political correctness, and lack of engaged parenting it won't happen in my time.
 
The_Technomancer said:
No, you're not. Lots of people have that belief. Lots of people have always had that belief. For thousands of years. The younger generation always seems lazy and self centered.
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Probably true. I imagine that part of it is subjective. However, crime levels in the UK have steadily increased in the past 100 years. Of course the system in which crimes are reported has improved also, so that should be factored in, but then even in the 50s and 60s crime was considerably lower than it is today. It probably was a safer place to live in the UK in the 50s and 60s.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf
 
Fantastical said:
I don't think referencing a comedy starring Seth Rogen is going to help your point.
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Why? It was a great movie that really underlined the Neverland boys' club that demanded zero responsibility. Smoking weed, swimming and telling dumb jokes all day is alluring, but that shit gets old.

It was a comedy that addressed some very real issues. It's not like Leslie Mann's character existed to be the villain; I thought she was the most interesting, sympathetic character in the movie.
 
SmokyDave said:
Funny you should say that.

Thing is, so what? Should we ignore the issues that white males face today because historically we've faced less challenges than everyone else? That sounds deeply unfair to me and smacks of 'revenge' almost.

Honestly, if nobody gives a fuck about white males, why should white males continue to give a fuck about everyone else?
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HarryHengst said:
But white males already dont give a fuck about everyone else, except other white males, preferably rich ones? See also: politics.


But no, it shouldnt be ignored. However, it would be nice if white males would pay more attention to non-white peoples problems. Its pretty shameful to ignore decades of problems with black youths, but now white boys are having trouble its suddenly a big thing that needs to be solved now.
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Arcane Hayter said:
I personally have a problem with the following:
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...

Disclaimer: These are all my opinions.
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This thread is incredible, wow.
 
Did "manhood" ever have a concrete meaning?
Consensus seems to dictate that it has something to do with Ernest Hemingway, but I've personally never been able to penetrate the term.
 
SmokyDave said:
Funny you should say that.

Thing is, so what? Should we ignore the issues that white males face today because historically we've faced less challenges than everyone else? That sounds deeply unfair to me and smacks of 'revenge' almost.

Honestly, if nobody gives a fuck about white males, why should white males continue to give a fuck about everyone else?
Click to expand...

Best post in this thread, hands down.
 
90sRobots said:
Why? It was a great movie that really underlined the Neverland boys' club that demanded zero responsibility. Smoking weed, swimming and telling dumb jokes all day is alluring, but that shit gets old.

It was a comedy that addressed some very real issues. It's not like Leslie Mann's character existed to be the villain; I thought she was the most interesting, sympathetic character in the movie.
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Because it's a fictional comedy that relies on hyperbole and extraordinary circumstances for laughs? I'm not saying that those type of people don't exist, but I wouldn't put any serious thought into Seth Rogen being the stereotypical "man" of this generation.
 
I like how that list (which Henry did not post) is causing people to flip their shit. How dare dare anyone form opinions and preferences.
 
Mr.City said:
I like how that list (which Henry did not post) is causing people to flip their shit. How dare dare anyone form opinions and preferences.
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Yeah but people can have opinions about specific opinions. That list doesn't bother me so much. What's shameful is that in a thread where we alredy knew emotions were going to run high, some thought it would be wise to add posts that are about one step away from race baiting. This is why I should know better than to enter threads about race and gender, it's never about discussion, all about agendas.
 
Zaptruder said:
Like, let's be honest here... I'd like to do the live at home dad thing if I could, but reality is, it's still a pretty rare thing. Even though ladies are rising up on the career ladder, and there are more of them in better paying positions than ever, society hasn't accepted the idea of these ladies picking male of lower social status to be their partners. Like the more powerful these women get, the more powerful their partners have to be too.

OTOH, a male doctor or lawyer going for a female nurse or receptionist - no one bats an eye at the thought.
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Don't know how common this is in the rest of the world, but I have met plenty of girls in high powered careers dating men who earn much less - some of them even without a job. The last girl I dated, I made less than half the salary of... then again, she was a patent lawyer with a JD from Harvard. And I'm an engineer with BA and MS from a state school. Of course that didn't work out because she was a bit nuts. Still kinda sucks.
 
Deified Data said:
Oh sweet Jesus, someone gets it. I tried to tell them this pages back but got ignored.
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Kids aren't dumb they internalize these messages. They see the girls doing as they please, being told they can grow up to be anything. What are little boys told? Don't fucking cry, don't be weak. People still expect them to be emotionless little automatons, little Don Drapers and act surprised when they don't measure up, when the homosexual ones commit suicide, when they're confused and can't talk about it because SUCK IT UP SON, TOUGH IT OUT. I never really realized till recently how much "masculine" gender policing goes on even today even among friends. These arbitrary definitions that don't mean shit when women are allowed to exude the very same characteristics and more and yet boys are still confined to some stupid box. Instead of talking about these issues the thread turned into what? Men forcing arbitrary notions of manhood down each other's throats yet again. The cycle continues.
 
Devolution said:
Kids aren't dumb they internalize these messages. They see the girls doing as they please, being told they can grow up to be anything. What are little boys told? Don't fucking cry, don't be weak. People still expect them to be emotionless little automatons, little Don Drapers and act surprised when they don't measure up, when the homosexual ones commit suicide, when they're confused and can't talk about it because SUCK IT UP SON, TOUGH IT OUT. I never really realized till recently how much "masculine" gender policing goes on even today even among friends. These arbitrary definitions that don't mean shit when women are allowed to exude the very same characteristics and more and yet boys are still confined to some stupid box.
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It certainly fucked me up. And my family weren't even that bad about shit like that.
 
Devolution said:
Kids aren't dumb they internalize these messages. They see the girls doing as they please, being told they can grow up to be anything. What are little boys told? Don't fucking cry, don't be weak. People still expect them to be emotionless little automatons, little Don Drapers and act surprised when they don't measure up, when the homosexual ones commit suicide, when they're confused and can't talk about it because SUCK IT UP SON, TOUGH IT OUT. I never really realized till recently how much "masculine" gender policing goes on even today even among friends. These arbitrary definitions that don't mean shit when women are allowed to exude the very same characteristics and more and yet boys are still confined to some stupid box. Instead of talking about these issues the thread turned into what? Men forcing arbitrary notions of manhood down each other's throats yet again. The cycle continues.
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Wow, I think this is the first post I actually agree with you on. So much so that I feel like revisiting your other posts. Being a "man" to the point of robot can actually destroy men 100% agreed. Sucking it up too much will completely break you down. I was one of them.
 
Devolution said:
Kids aren't dumb they internalize these messages. They see the girls doing as they please, being told they can grow up to be anything. What are little boys told? Don't fucking cry, don't be weak. People still expect them to be emotionless little automatons, little Don Drapers and act surprised when they don't measure up, when the homosexual ones commit suicide, when they're confused and can't talk about it because SUCK IT UP SON, TOUGH IT OUT. I never really realized till recently how much "masculine" gender policing goes on even today even among friends. These arbitrary definitions that don't mean shit when women are allowed to exude the very same characteristics and more and yet boys are still confined to some stupid box. Instead of talking about these issues the thread turned into what? Men forcing arbitrary notions of manhood down each other's throats yet again. The cycle continues.
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Guyland's a pretty good book.
 
Staccat0 said:
EDIT: The sad part? he cornered me while I was trying to buy a poblano at the grocery store and started all this deep talk out of nowhere. He also told my wife that we would have smart children, so I'm assuming this means I'm ugly.
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What you didn't know? He was actually sent from the future. shayamalinception.gif
 
Devolution said:
Kids aren't dumb they internalize these messages. They see the girls doing as they please, being told they can grow up to be anything. What are little boys told? Don't fucking cry, don't be weak. People still expect them to be emotionless little automatons, little Don Drapers and act surprised when they don't measure up, when the homosexual ones commit suicide, when they're confused and can't talk about it because SUCK IT UP SON, TOUGH IT OUT. I never really realized till recently how much "masculine" gender policing goes on even today even among friends. These arbitrary definitions that don't mean shit when women are allowed to exude the very same characteristics and more and yet boys are still confined to some stupid box. Instead of talking about these issues the thread turned into what? Men forcing arbitrary notions of manhood down each other's throats yet again. The cycle continues.
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Wild applause.
 
Slayven said:
Haha. Women are 20 times worse on other women then any man could be.
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In different ways Slayven. I didn't go through nearly the same amount of shit for being a tomboy that the boys do for shedding a tear or being "feminine" or not "masculine" enough. And most of the shit I got was from peers, not peers, teachers and parents.
 
Devolution said:
Kids aren't dumb they internalize these messages. They see the girls doing as they please, being told they can grow up to be anything. What are little boys told? Don't fucking cry, don't be weak. People still expect them to be emotionless little automatons, little Don Drapers and act surprised when they don't measure up, when the homosexual ones commit suicide, when they're confused and can't talk about it because SUCK IT UP SON, TOUGH IT OUT. I never really realized till recently how much "masculine" gender policing goes on even today even among friends. These arbitrary definitions that don't mean shit when women are allowed to exude the very same characteristics and more and yet boys are still confined to some stupid box. Instead of talking about these issues the thread turned into what? Men forcing arbitrary notions of manhood down each other's throats yet again. The cycle continues.
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It would be interesting to know just how many parents treat their kids like that in today's society. I never had that really ever. I think that type of attitude was when exposed to other boys. I think in school if you were the little cry boy you would get picked on, seen as weak, etc. Issues were always solved with fists. I think the main issue I had was being exposed to the cold hard reality of the real world where the weak are walked all over. If you don't stick up for yourself then the problem gets worse.
 
junkster said:
Wow, I think this is the first post I actually agree with you on. So much so that I feel like revisiting your other posts. Being a "man" to the point of robot can actually destroy men 100% agreed. Sucking it up too much will completely break you down. I was one of them.
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And that's not even the point. Problem is, people are obsessed with defining this undefinable concept that should have more to do with the individual than society and its expectations. Being a man isn't being a soulless mandroid, nor is it being soft, sensitive, and open. It is what you make of it, for better or worse. Pretending there's a universal standard is an exercise in futility. We don't pretend there's a universal standard for "correct" religion, politics, or morality. Why do we do it with gender conventions?
 
Devolution said:
In different ways Slayven. I didn't go through nearly the same amount of shit for being a tomboy that the boys do for shedding a tear or being "feminine" or not "masculine" enough. And most of the shit I got was from peers, not peers, teachers and parents.
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*standing ovation and whistles*
 
leadbelly said:
It would be interesting to know just how many parents treat their kids like that in today's society.
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I'm working tirelessly to make sure that my son becomes a man. At seven months, he'll just start wailing incessantly about who knows what -- probably wants mother's milk or needs a diaper change. I just give him a stern glance, a wag of my finger, and confidently assure him that he needs to be a man and stop crying.

As of yet, this hasn't proven very effective.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
I'm working tirelessly to make sure that my son becomes a man. At seven months, he'll just start wailing incessantly about who knows what -- probably wants mother's milk or needs a diaper change. I just give him a stern glance, a wag of my finger, and confidently assure him that he needs to be a man and stop crying.

As of yet, this hasn't proven very effective.
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Introduce him to hard liquor.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
I'm working tirelessly to make sure that my son becomes a man. At seven months, he'll just start wailing incessantly about who knows what -- probably wants mother's milk or needs a diaper change. I just give him a stern glance, a wag of my finger, and confidently assure him that he needs to be a man and stop crying.

As of yet, this hasn't proven very effective.
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I'm not sure what you can do. Being a man in the real world isn't always a walk in the park. I've seen men glassed, stabbed up in clubs. I have often wondered how easy it must be to be a woman. Life seems easier to me.

My mother and uncles were orphans. They had no one to protect them. Not surprising that my uncles had this philosophy of not backing down from a fight ever.
 
leadbelly said:
What? you mean like being jumped by four guys (which happened to me once). Or finding out my brother got his jaw broken at a party?

It's easy being a man,, you're right!
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It's not easy being either, I don't know what would possess you to think being a woman is easier though.
 
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