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Fate/Zero 16

iDiAXw9lUAYAS.jpg


Truly the expression of an elated man.
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Well, that was a lot better than the last episode.

Kiritsugu is truly ruthless. Obviously they had depicted his willingness to go to extreme measures before, but even his demolition escapade had nothing on this.

It's pretty impressive how it managed to make me feel sorry for a guy who had just shot an old man in cold blood. And Lancer... not even in death can he find peace from the incredibly suckiness of his life.

Saber got told again, but it was nice to see her fire back with her own insight this time. She's learning... maybe.

I did think the scene was pretty silly where
Sola Ui lost her arm. For one thing, you're not going to be able to hack someone's arm off with one swing with a blade like that, especially when you have no leverage. Plus she somehow lost a comical amount of blood in few seconds, enough that she would obviously be dead.
 
The other thing I wanted to note was the conversation at the end between both of them was also executed well too. Kiritsugu remains consistent in not addressing Saber directly, instead he defaces the code of honor and criticizes the knights and heroes of ages past to refer to Saber. Most effective lines were "Knights cannot save the world" and the cut to Saber retracting Caliburn when Kiritsugu accuses the "dazzling hero blinding the people".
 
Episode 14

I know it take place in modern time and technology will be used, but I never expect to see
a dog fight between berserker and archer.

Episode 15-16

Jeanne is so moe. The last moment of caster made me wonder what he said since he couldn't finish his line. "What have I.....". Sounds like he found his sanity in his last moment.

They did a good job or portraying Kirei like a
straight A student that tried shoplifting. Fate/Stay Night anime didn't show a bit of Kirei's ability, the only way to know how awesome/powerful Kirei is to read the third route (Sakura) of Fate/Stay Night. That is the only story route where he plays an important role in the story, instead of just some stupid villain waiting for the hero to defeat him.

When Emiya's assistant spared SOLA UI, I thought it was because he didn't want to do any unnecessary killing. I guess using her as a hostage is a even better idea than killing her.

Lancer die the manner he did in his past life, found another lord just to repeat the same path. The curse he made in the end to the winner of the holy grail is pretty funny if you already know the end in F/SN.
 
Instro said:
Oh definitely, actually it wouldn't just be for Saber's benefit. He certainly wanted to show Iri what kind of man he was, and he specifically mentions to her that this was the first time she had seen how he kills. Kind of like "hey this is the man you married", and it was pretty clear from her reaction that she did not know this was coming.
Click to expand...

The way he mentions it to her is more of an afterthought though. More like "Oh that's right I forgot you haven't seen me operate before. Heh." His personality is very detached and very cold. He's never tried to make people understand what he's think nor does he particularly care. His primary concern is his job, not whether people like him or not. I mean this is the man who is using his wife as a shield and she knows it. She knows perfectly well who he is, she just hasn't seen it before.
 
I'm very interested in seeing what happens to Kirei. He's the most unpredictable character because even he doesn't know what he wants yet.
 
Fate/Zero 16

Oh, Kiritsugu. You're like a Batman
who kills people
.

Great episode. Lots of sudden, powerful moments, and I liked the conversation between Kiritsugu and Saber at the end.

One thing that surprised me about the ending conversation is that it's not really entirely one-sided.
Kiritsugu is right about the false honor of Saber's chivalry, but I thought it was revealing that, on some level, he's as much of an idealist as any of the other characters, trying to bring about a world without killing through the Grail. It's almost an impossibly good ideal, and it's completely counter to his methods. Saber's right when she says that deep down, he wants to be the hero as much as anyone, and he knows it, which is why he turns back with a flash of anger.

As much as he says he's okay with it, I don't think he's completely comfortable with his own hypocrisy.
 
sonicmj1 said:
Fate/Zero 16

Oh, Kiritsugu. You're like a Batman
who kills people
.

Great episode. Lots of sudden, powerful moments, and I liked the conversation between Kiritsugu and Saber at the end.

One thing that surprised me about the ending conversation is that it's not really entirely one-sided.
Kiritsugu is right about the false honor of Saber's chivalry, but I thought it was revealing that, on some level, he's as much of an idealist as any of the other characters, trying to bring about a world without killing through the Grail. It's almost an impossibly good ideal, and it's completely counter to his methods. Saber's right when she says that deep down, he wants to be the hero as much as anyone, and he knows it, which is why he turns back with a flash of anger.

As much as he says he's okay with it, I don't think he's completely comfortable with his own hypocrisy.
Click to expand...

Of course he's not. Just rewatch the opening scene of the series.
 
Everyone trashing with strong arguments the ideal of own sacrifice from Saber/Arturia, I swear that if the naivety of that Servant pays off at the end I... will not know what to say about this series anymore.

Now it is when I found most moving those portrait images of the ending with Kiritsugu and Irisviel. It all commenced out of necessity and dependency and progressed into more than respect. I'm sure Irisviel should feel used and still there is that confidence between them proper of a couple, they also don't want to show each other their weaknesses because of their common objective and mutual usefulness while mantaining a facade. It is fairly strange but full of kindness altogether.

duckroll said:
You can get images without watermarks here: http://moca-news.net/article/20120418/201204181820a/01/

:)
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Thanks! Duly noted for future occasions.
 
/XX/ said:
Now it is when I found most moving those portrait images of the ending with Kiritsugu and Irisviel. It all commenced out of necessity and dependency and progressed into more than respect. I'm sure Irisviel should feel used and still there is that confidence between them proper a couple, they also don't want to show each other their weaknesses because of their common objective and mutual usefulness while mantaining a facade. It is fairly strange but full of kindness altogether.
Click to expand...

I dunno,
while Irisviel does put up the impression that continues to hold strong for the sake of Kiritsugu, Kiritsugu seems to have no qualms with letting out his feelings and emotions when they're alone together. Actually, those moments seem to be the only times that Kiritsugu shows any kind of emotion aside from anger. The relationship seems to have Irisviel supporting Kiritsugu rather than any kind of mutual thing.
 
/XX/ said:
Everyone trashing with strong arguments the ideal of own sacrifice from Saber/Arturia, I swear that if the naivety of that Servant pays off at the end I... will not know what to say about this series anymore.

Now it is when I found most moving those portrait images of the ending with Kiritsugu and Irisviel. It all commenced out of necessity and dependency and progressed into more than respect. I'm sure Irisviel should feel used and still there is that confidence between them proper a couple, they also don't want to show each other their weaknesses because of their common objective and mutual usefulness while mantaining a facade. It is fairly strange but full of kindness altogether.
Click to expand...

If you have the chance, I recommend listening to the Radio Drama from the Season 1 BD box set. It will shed a lot of light on the nature of the relationship between Kiritsugu and Irisviel.
 
kayos90 said:
The way I look at it is the following. When I sympathize for a character I try to find a way for me to sympathize. In this case I found the manner of his death sad and therefore I felt sympathetic. He definitely is an asshat. No argument there. However, I do believe that death is a sad thing regardless of the situation. As a result, I feel sorry for Kayneth and what happened to him.
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Ultimadrago said:
Seems fair enough. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at people for sympathizing, I was just curious as to why a number felt this way. I'm assuming it's probably for similar reasons.
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The thing for Lord El-Melloi is that he seems like the broken man in disgrace that even then doesn't deserve such painful end. Mr. Urobuchi anti-healing properties in full effect here, because since the beginning circumstances forced poor Kayneth into a difficult position that I think set an example on this story about how destructive this game can be. He was used as a tragic character for that and this helped people to like his cocky but empty act out of pity. However, genuine redeemable qualities also appear; for example, you see him suffer in moments like episode 9, you see him being a cold-blooded murderer on others like this latest episode 16, you see him making consequent and vital decisions in a cabal manner to protect what he earned, and you also can see his loftiness and arrogant attitude. They covered various bases and situations with him. All this gives authenticity and a more likable figure, in my opinion.

In that sense the way the story has been playing with this character makes him seem like the side of a coin with Tokiomi on the other (although this later one is more experimented than him on Holy Grail War matters), because I consider them both prideful magicians showing their respectful lineages, and one of them at least conserves this status for the moment.

InsaneZero said:
I dunno,
while Irisviel does put up the impression that continues to hold strong for the sake of Kiritsugu, Kiritsugu seems to have no qualms with letting out his feelings and emotions when they're alone together. Actually, those moments seem to be the only times that Kiritsugu shows any kind of emotion aside from anger. The relationship seems to have Irisviel supporting Kiritsugu rather than any kind of mutual thing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that is right. This certainly doesn't seem like a balanced relationship because it looks like Irisviel is giving all she has supporting him, although I also think Kiritsugu acknowledges this forcing himself to go this far to end this for the sake of everyone involved.

Well, you know more about this whole story, back-story and additional material than me, it is only that this is the impression their relationship gives me right now.

duckroll said:
If you have the chance, I recommend listening to the Radio Drama from the Season 1 BD box set. It will shed a lot of light on the nature of the relationship between Kiritsugu and Irisviel.
Click to expand...
Yep, that is my intention. I will.
 
Branduil said:
I'm very interested in seeing what happens to Kirei. He's the most unpredictable character because even he doesn't know what he wants yet.
Click to expand...

Kirei is easily the most fascinating character in the series. His conversations with Gilgamesh have been some of the best scenes in the series, and it's really interesting seeing the unpredictable way in which his character has evolved over the series so far. I'm really interested in finding out what will happen next.
 
KuwabaraTheMan said:
Kirei is easily the most fascinating character in the series. His conversations with Gilgamesh have been some of the best scenes in the series, and it's really interesting seeing the unpredictable way in which his character has evolved over the series so far. I'm really interested in finding out what will happen next.
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Quite.

I expect
Gilgamesh to be at the end of the rainbow that Kirei is following.
and an accompanied final conversation that will finalize Kirei's formerly uncertain thoughts into decision and action.
 
Just started watching this because of this thread. Almost done with the 1st season. Everything gets dragged out way too much but the fight scenes are pretty nice.
 
duckroll said:
If you have the chance, I recommend listening to the Radio Drama from the Season 1 BD box set. It will shed a lot of light on the nature of the relationship between Kiritsugu and Irisviel.
Click to expand...

That seems like a lot of work to gather such information. I imagine, and hope, that they'll cover some of it in the show proper but then again there's only so much time.
 
Just watched episode 16. Poor Lancer. Every time Saber gets into any kind of honorable fight you-know-who comes along and fucks that up.
 
kayos90 said:
Having said that, there were particular aspects that really stood out to me of why this episode is so good. Rather than dedicating one large continuous portion of the episode to a fight, they broke it up with dialogue in-between. I enjoyed this partially due to the fact that it keeps the dialogues interesting, but it also pulls the audience in more to enjoy the fight, since it isn't mindless action. I'm not saying they should do this for every fight sequence, but the combination of the two works really well for the episode.
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Oh yes, I like that! And it leads to how the moment unfolded, with the Masters negotating as the two Servants battled each other, with successive camera shots mirroring what they were saying; like layers of the same conflict, letting the kids with pure ideals play their game while the adults decide this on their own.

duckroll said:
Detailed spoilers within, do not highlight before watching.
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Whoa! Man, you have to do something like this for every episode of the show now.

duckroll said:
For example, we start with Sola-Ui looking through a fence, thinking about Lancer, and just having a personal moment. This scene automatically makes us think that the intention is to develop her character to show that she is no longer the person she used to be, and is completely under his spell. By doing this, it distracts the viewer from making the connection that there might be another person at the scene, in a way it puts the audience into her mind set, which is such that she is oblivious to her surroundings and hence does not realize that Maiya has come right behind her, until she sees her own hand hanging on the fence. Fantastic.
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Yeah, it surprised me. I did expect a contemplative scene after seeing the moment in the church but they made such a cramming of determinant scenes into the whole episode that this kind of fast roller-coaster pace seems the obvious way to go.
 
Great episode, especially the ending dialogue. Finally, we find out Kiritsugu's motivation for the grail. An interesting note was how he tried to totally avoid any conversations or dialogue with Saber by speaking through Iri, but regardless he eventually answered Saber's question anyway, albeit indirectly. I will disagree with those who find Kirei interesting, he's one of blandest characters ever. It's like a robot somehow gaining emotions, except he's even more of a personality vacuum. "I feel...something?" But I don't really blame him, having lost his wife recently.
 
copy/pasta from main thread:

Fate/Zero 16


A show that doesn't pull any punches and things actually happen? Madness!

...poor Lancer. I kinda hope his last words fuck someone over. Just seems so unfair!

Cant wait for some back history on Kiritsugu!
 
Well, this perked things up today a tad.

Great episode, really didn't see the Church stuff coming per se---all points to it continuing to ramp to better and better.

Best new series in ages, no question.
 
If anyone who doesn't understand japanese wants to know what goes on in the drama cd, one of the fansub groups (UTW) took the time to translate it and make it available on their website.

I just finished reading the translation and found it quite an interesting background on Kiritsugu and Irisviel and the nature of their relationship.
 
Jexhius said:
That seems like a lot of work to gather such information. I imagine, and hope, that they'll cover some of it in the show proper but then again there's only so much time.
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It's not work when it's so damn entertaining. The voice actors are really amazing in their roles.
 
KuwabaraTheMan said:
Kirei is easily the most fascinating character in the series. His conversations with Gilgamesh have been some of the best scenes in the series, and it's really interesting seeing the unpredictable way in which his character has evolved over the series so far. I'm really interested in finding out what will happen next.
Click to expand...

Conversely, every time Tokiomi appears it's like getting blueballed, I keep waiting for him to do something awesome and all he does is TALK TALK TALK. I originally thought Kirei shared the blame for this as well but have come to realize it's 100% Tohsaka.

Seriously, how do you
set a guy on fire
and still come out being so boring?

It's even worse when you're translating the show :P I'm working on ep 16 for Crunchyroll right now and I just stopped and decided to watch the whole thing first because it was SO GOOD. Talk about a thrill ride. duckroll made some nice points on it so I'll just be a lot less eloquent and say it fucking ruled.
 
HisshouBuraiKen said:
Conversely, every time Tokiomi appears it's like getting blueballed, I keep waiting for him to do something awesome and all he does is TALK TALK TALK. I originally thought Kirei shared the blame for this as well but have come to realize it's 100% Tohsaka.

Seriously, how do you
set a guy on fire
and still come out being so boring?
Click to expand...

I think that's Tohsaka's special power though. There are very few characters in anime or entertainment history who are as talented as he is in having totally cool powers and a pretty great design while ending up so scholastic that all he can ever do is to talk about something. Even when he's trying to do something cool, he seems more interested in explaining to you why he is doing it, rather than actually showing off what he can do.

Personally, I hope he does succeed in finding the root. And then I hope he just stays there, forever. Lol.
 
duckroll said:
I think that's Tohsaka's special power though. There are very few characters in anime or entertainment history who are as talented as he is in having totally cool powers and a pretty great design while ending up so scholastic that all he can ever do is to talk about something.
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This is one of those things we'll need to bring up once the series is concluded.
 
Episode 17 is definitely the best episode of the second half so far.
Gilgamesh is the best character, as expected.
 
Ep 17

Ep 17 felt like it regressed the tone of the series back to the first half. After so much time spent then with talking and discussing outlooks on life and what not, we returned to that, meaning, for me, it was quite dull.
Gilgamesh changing sides was decent and his laughter scene was great but overall, it was hard to having any feelings for Tokiomi and that backstab, or even care about it, as well as caring about what was going on with everyone else. Little to no progress was made it felt like, and other participants in the war are still being left out. Waver and then the one with the bugs in him, who ought to have some moment of glory, I hope.
 
Fate/Zero Episode 17

This is definitely an episode where the story moves forward into the "next phase" of the narrative. Possibly the final phase, given how there are only 8 episodes left. I think it was well made, and there are certain specific parts I'll get into later on in the spoiler zone, but I also felt that this was the first episode in a while which felt artificially stretched. Scenes take longer than they could have, and there are lingering shots in scenes as well as other techniques used to drag the runtime of a smaller number of events into a full episode. The first half of the episode felt well paced, but the second half dragged in a rather obvious way. But even that might be intentionally, something I'll discuss in the spoiler zone.

So it finally happens. After building up the obvious conclusion of Kirei's character arc with Gilgamesh since episode 6, he finally decides to take the step to remove Tokiomi from the equation. I think everyone saw this coming, but what is more interesting is not that he has killed Tokiomi, or that Tokiomi is dead, but rather what this means for Kirei as a character. The change in Kirei's expressions and behavior is probably one of the more interesting and deliberate character development arcs I've seen in animation. Everything from script to character design to animation has been subtly changing since his first interaction with Gilgamesh. To finally see him break into moments of facial expression, and to see him take independant actions in the episodes leading up to this is very fascinating. The payoff for audiences here imo, is seeing Kirei's total release in emotions at the end of the episode, not so much a master being eliminated. Finally seeing him smile and feel "free" to express emotions of his own is both satisfying and also rather creepy. The pacing of the episode seems to also reflect Kirei's hesitation towards finally acting out his intentions, and as such, that could explain the deliberate nature of the slower second half of the episode.

As for Gilgamesh, I think it is also very intriging to see what a seductive bastard he is. Out of all the Servants he is definitely the one with the most arrogance and deviousness, and he's not even afraid to let people know that. If only Tokiomi was more attentive and less trustworthy with regards to his grand plan, he would probably have caught on. It's hard to feel that there is a loss of a character here today, since Tokiomi was hardly a participant as far as the narrative was concerned. So caught up was he in his own world that he was really oblivious to all around him, and it reflected him as a boring and uninterested individual. He will not be missed. I do have to question though, why Gilgamesh would feel so confident and willing to form a contract with Kirei knowing that he has also inherited all his father's Command Spells. That seems to be the one weakness that Gilgamesh has. Does he really feel that Kirei is interesting enough a person to risk this contract? Their relationship should get even more exciting from here on out.

Other than the above comments, there really isn't much else to say about the episode. The other scenes don't really give us much more information that we didn't already know, but it does set up a possible conflict very soon with Team Saber being caught off guard by these developments. Saber's V-MAX looks pretty cool though. The CG work on it is definitely more detailed than the Benz 300SL. Kiritsugu should consider sending the car for an overhaul. :P

Oh, one last comment, that CG camera spin on the stabbing scene was kinda interesting. It was done in a very striking way, which makes it memorable. It also tried to make the scene more "exciting" than it really was, and as Gilgamesh said, it's a pretty boring way to murder someone as it is. Perhaps the scene was intended to reflect Kirei's mindset at that time, where this is the MOST EXCITING THING he has done in his entire life. In that sense I feel it is successful. It's definitely better than the first person moving CG background in Hyouka ep1 anyway! :P :P :P
 
Fate Zero 17

The moment I saw what was inside the thing I honestly didn't think they would do it this episode but then again it had to start somewhere, so here we are and I feel that things are about to go crazy with the wildcard that nobody expected.

On another note regarding a certain master
it seems that Kirei and Gilgamesh aren't aware that Kayneth is already dead.
 
SonicX_Zero said:
Fate Zero 17

The moment I saw what was inside the thing I honestly didn't think they would do it this episode but then again it had to start somewhere, so here we are and I feel that things are about to go crazy with the wildcard that nobody expected.

On another note regarding a certain master
it seems that Kirei and Gilgamesh aren't aware that Kayneth is already dead.
Click to expand...

They do know.
Tokiomi announced that there were 4 teams left. Saber, Archer, Berserker and the "outsider" Rider.

Oh, one last comment, that CG camera spin on the stabbing scene was kinda interesting. It was done in a very striking way, which makes it memorable. It also tried to make the scene more "exciting" than it really was, and as Gilgamesh said, it's a pretty boring way to murder someone as it is. Perhaps the scene was intended to reflect Kirei's mindset at that time, where this is the MOST EXCITING THING he has done in his entire life. In that sense I feel it is successful. It's definitely better than the first person moving CG background in Hyouka ep1 anyway! :P :P :P
Click to expand...

I thought the camera spin was funny as hell. It was so out of place.
 
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