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[Ripclawe]

here is the AP Write up.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120627/D9VLO34G1.html

feeling is the mandate falls but everything else stays intact or everything is upheld but the conmerce clause gets severely restricted.

live blog of decisions

http://www.scotusblog.com/cover-it-live/

 

[JGS]

Anything less than just the mandate falling would be horrible.

It may be horrible anyway.

 

[Slavik81]

The mandate's the lynchpin of the entire thing. How could it be removed without reworking the rest of the legislation?

 

[JGS]

The mandate's the lynchpin of the entire thing. How could it be removed without reworking the rest of the legislation?

The government could still offer basic care for the uninsured even if they are too stupid to realize they need the healthcare. It would be similar to as it is now with hospitals and free clinics covering the costs

A crueler way is to a no care rule without the fine or have it set up exactly as it is now- their credit suffers but the get the care still.

Most people already have healthcare and the reform helps them just as much as the uninsured as it helps to ensure that most people with healthcare can still have healthcare. Out of everybody, the ones I care the least about are the ones who don't want care.

 

[Wazzim]

This whole healthcare stuff is such a disaster.

The government could still offer basic care for the uninsured even if they are too stupid to realize they need the healthcare. It would be similar to as it is now with hospitals and free clinics covering the costs

A crueler way is to a no care rule without the fine or have it set up exactly as it is now- their credit suffers but the get the care still.

Most people already have healthcare and the reform helps them just as much as the uninsured as it helps to ensure that most people with healthcare can still have healthcare. Out of everybody, the ones I care the least about are the ones who don't want care.

Eh? Aren't hospitals private in the US? How would you let them cover the costs of uninsured people?

Best option would be to offer uninsured nothing and go with a cheap public option for basic healthcare, you then can get extra insurance from a private company if you desire. No need to mandate anything when it will be an option most Americans will be able to afford.

 

[jchap]

Without the Mandate it is not sustainable in the least and will have to be majorly reworked or it will drive the nation into debt and insurance companies out of business. For instance: pre-existing conditions are still covered but you don't have to carry insurance so you can wait til you get sick and go buy insurance.

That said, maybe these idiots who proposed the legislation should think about whether it is constitutional before they push it through. If they had made a tax increase the size of the penalty and allowed people with insurance to write it off it wouldn't be an issue. This is on the people who penned the bill.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Any idea what time today?

 

[JGS]

Without the Mandate it is not sustainable in the least and will have to be majorly reworked or it will drive the nation into debt and insurance companies out of business. For instance: pre-existing conditions are still covered but you don't have to carry insurance so you can wait til you get sick and go buy insurance.

That said, maybe these idiots who proposed the legislation should think about whether it is constitutional before they push it through. If they had made a tax increase the size of the penalty and allowed people with insurance to write it off it wouldn't be an issue. This is on the people who penned the bill.

I agree with the second paragraph (There should have always been a deduction for insurance premiums), but it won't really do this. The insurance industry has been surviving fine without it all these years. It won't lower prices to the best levels, but it will survive without it because most healthy people understand the need for insurance already and whether the insurance industry admit it or not, they have built into the system the cost of sick people entering the system.

This happens on the young adult sick people side who the insurance industry embraced with the healthy when parents were allowed to add them back to the family plan. Our insurance company has already said they aren't removing that provision regardless of the decision.

Even if the mandate is struck down, it's going to be a good thing to go through a trial and error on making the reform stick until someone wises up and realizes that it can be even more streamlined.

 

[Tom_Cody]

Ugh, this whole debate is so idiotic. I still can't believe how much the political well got poisoned on this topic during the never ending debate.

It makes me kind of sick to my stomach just reading about it again.

 

[snacknuts]

Any idea what time today?

I think they're meeting at 10AM, and should be discussing two other cases prior to tackling this one.

I am expecting them to overnturn enough of this to make the whole thing ineffective. Not because I know anything about the legality of the issues or anything, just a hunch. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

What a clusterfuck this whole Obamacare has been. From its very inception with secret closed-door meetings and backroom deals with drug companies.... from ramming it down the people's throats (~70% of Americans still oppose it).... from the fact that this unconstitutional pile of dogshit (that nobody has even read) took so much time away from the economic issues when we needed the focus on that....it's really been such a fucking waste of our time and money. If it is overturned as it should be, this is the beginning of the end for the Obama administration. This and the contempt vote on Holder today (which will get 20-30 Democrats on board) will be entertaining to watch. The meltdowns will be amazing.

 

[Pollux]

I'm hoping for long and bitter Scalia dissent. They're always so fun to read.

 

[Tideas]

What a clusterfuck this whole Obamacare has been. From its very inception with secret closed-door meetings and backroom deals with drug companies.... from ramming it down the people's throats (~70% of Americans still oppose it).... from the fact that this unconstitutional pile of dogshit (that nobody has even read) took so much time away from the economic issues when we needed the focus on that....it's really been such a fucking waste of our time and money. If it is overturned as it should be, this is the beginning of the end for the Obama administration. This and the contempt vote on Holder today (which will get 20-30 Democrats on board) will be entertaining to watch. The meltdowns will be amazing.

yours including

 

[Dany]

Is Obama's reelection chances tied to this...?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

What a clusterfuck this whole Obamacare has been. From its very inception with secret closed-door meetings and backroom deals with drug companies.... from ramming it down the people's throats (~70% of Americans still oppose it).... from the fact that this unconstitutional pile of dogshit (that nobody has even read) took so much time away from the economic issues when we needed the focus on that....it's really been such a fucking waste of our time and money. If it is overturned as it should be, this is the beginning of the end for the Obama administration. This and the contempt vote on Holder today (which will get 20-30 Democrats on board) will be entertaining to watch. The meltdowns will be amazing.

The meltdowns in American's healthcare system won't be amazing.

 

[kirblar]

Is Obama's reelection chances tied to this...?

Not really. Romney has severe problems as a candidate that he hasn't been able to fix over the past decade.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Is Obama's reelection chances tied to this...?

Losing is never good in Politics.

 

[Amir0x]

What a clusterfuck this whole Obamacare has been. From its very inception with secret closed-door meetings and backroom deals with drug companies....

"Secret" as in we knew about them almost as soon as they were happening, and that it was part of a broader plan for him to find a consensus? I disagree with it, of course, but there was nothing sinister about the meetings except that they were dumb.

from ramming it down the people's throats (~70% of Americans still oppose it)....

'Ramming' it meaning literally half a year spent debating every aspect of the bill, until finally using your majority to ensure that it passes?

Oh, i forgot, if one party wants to be a bunch of incompetent douchebags and do nothing to support a bill that was composed of compromises largely made to try to GET Republican support - to say nothing of the fact that the individual mandate was their idea - you're supposed to NOT use your majority to actually get something done when you see they are not working with political goodwill!

Also, re, 70% of Americans not supporting health care reform -

The ONLY aspect that Americans consistently say they dislike is the individual mandate... the Republican idea.

from the fact that this unconstitutional pile of dogshit (that nobody has even read)

19 of 21 Constitutional Law Professors Polled Say Law is Constitutional; Partisan Retard Supreme Court Still Likely to Overturn Mandate

And, again, remember: the only thing about the law that MIGHT be unconstitutional to this retard court is the individual mandate. The VERY THING Republicans proposed as a 'bipartisan' solution in the 90s!

The only sane conclusion is that had Obama NOT bothered to work with the Republicans at all, the law would have been upheld! Single Payer, Public Option, etc... all that is 100% constitutional, fact.

took so much time away from the economic issues when we needed the focus on that.... it's really been such a fucking waste of our time and money.

Except Health Care is one of the defining economic issues of our time, as Health Care expenditures are over 18 percent of our GDP, projected to rise to over 34 percent of our GDP by 2030! This is without health care reform at all!

To try to act like they're separate issues simply means you've put next to no thought into your opinion:

So, a Bulbo Urethral post in other words.

 

[Shirokun]

What a clusterfuck this whole Obamacare has been. From its very inception with secret closed-door meetings and backroom deals with drug companies.... from ramming it down the people's throats (~70% of Americans still oppose it).... from the fact that this unconstitutional pile of dogshit (that nobody has even read) took so much time away from the economic issues when we needed the focus on that....it's really been such a fucking waste of our time and money. If it is overturned as it should be, this is the beginning of the end for the Obama administration. This and the contempt vote on Holder today (which will get 20-30 Democrats on board) will be entertaining to watch. The meltdowns will be amazing.

Looks like you remembered all of the talking points well. I've always wondered how it can be such a bad piece of unconstitutional dog shit if no one's read it?

 

[LosDaddie]

PoliGAF told me that not only will the SCOTUS uphold the entire law, but it will also be a 6-3 ruling. Something about Roberts caring about his legacy.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Is Obama's reelection chances tied to this...?

It really depends what his campaign decides to do with it. If it gets struck down, it might raise an opportunity to attract riled up liberals to create a more aggressive campaign. On the other hand, if the White House instead just defers to congress and uses more of the same language about cooperating to getting things done, the disenfranchised democrats are probably going to distance themselves from the campaign.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Well said Amir0x

 

[Timedog]

"Secret" as in we knew about them almost as soon as they were happening, and that it was part of a broader plan for him to find a consensus? I disagree with it, of course, but there was nothing sinister about the meetings except that they were dumb.



'Ramming' it meaning literally half a year spent debating every aspect of the bill, until finally using your majority to ensure that it passes?

Oh, i forgot, if one party wants to be a bunch of incompetent douchebags and do nothing to support a bill that was composed of compromises largely made to try to GET Republican support - to say nothing of the fact that the individual mandate was their idea - you're supposed to NOT use your majority to actually get something done when you see they are not working with political goodwill!

Also, re, 70% of Americans not supporting health care reform -

The ONLY aspect that Americans consistently say they dislike is the individual mandate... the Republican idea.



19 of 21 Constitutional Law Professors Polled Say Law is Constitutional; Partisan Retard Supreme Court Still Likely to Overturn Mandate

And, again, remember: the only thing about the law that MIGHT be unconstitutional to this retard court is the individual mandate. The VERY THING Republicans proposed as a 'bipartisan' solution in the 90s!

The only sane conclusion is that had Obama NOT bothered to work with the Republicans at all, the law would have been upheld! Single Payer, Public Option, etc... all that is 100% constitutional, fact.




Except Health Care is one of the defining economic issues of our time, as Health Care expenditures are over 18 percent of our GDP, projected to rise to over 34 percent of our GDP by 2030! This is without health care reform at all!

To try to act like they're separate issues simply means you've put next to no thought into your opinion:

So, a Bulbo Urethral post in other words.

Ether'd

 

[Aylinato]

PoliGAF told me that not only will the SCOTUS uphold the entire law, but it will also be a 6-3 ruling. Something about Roberts caring about his legacy.

It could very well be 6-3 because of the bad taste in Roberts mouth over Citizens United(he really hated how that turned out)

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm getting no hopes up one way or the other, I've seen too many predictions that go both ways.

 

[el retorno]

It could very well be 6-3 because of the bad taste in Roberts mouth over Citizens United(he really hated how that turned out)

This isn't how they rule. The cases have nothing to do with each other. Justices don't rule like that (besides scalia)

 

[Gaborn]

The ONLY aspect that Americans consistently say they dislike is the individual mandate... the Republican idea.

Yes, and a plurality of americans STILL say they want the law ruled unconstitutional - they hate the mandate so much they're willing to scrap the entire bill. The fact that they hate the mandate so much is not a strength of your position, it shows the depth of the disdain for it.

 

[marrec]

This isn't how they rule. The cases have nothing to do with each other. Justices don't rule like that (besides scalia)

Justices have a long and storied history of making rulings based on either political pressure or personal biases, just because they've been named to the SCOTUS does not mean they are immune from human foibles.

 

[Amir0x]

Yes, and a plurality of americans STILL say they want the law ruled unconstitutional - they hate the mandate so much they're willing to scrap the entire bill. The fact that they hate the mandate so much is not a strength of your position, it shows the depth of the disdain for it.

Right, we know they hate the mandate. But the point is that they don't hate almost every aspect of Health Care reform: in fact, they love most of it. The only part that is MAYBE unconstitutional is the Republican part...ergo, if Obama had said "fuck it" to the Republicans, we wouldn't be here right now. And, by the way, even your LINK shows how muddled Americans opinions truly are. They've been talking point'd into believing horse shit about the law for years.

 

[LiK]

Is Obama's reelection chances tied to this...?

Not really but the Court's decision can give the Republicans more ammo or not.

 

[Ripclawe]

the mandate would be popular as well if every single person has to pay it. as it stands now it will people pay for themselves and for others or have the IRS come after them. so it stands out as a another welfare program

 

[teruterubozu]

It really depends what his campaign decides to do with it. If it gets struck down, it might raise an opportunity to attract riled up liberals to create a more aggressive campaign. On the other hand, if the White House instead just defers to congress and uses more of the same language about cooperating to getting things done, the disenfranchised democrats are probably going to distance themselves from the campaign.

I predict the latter. No way the healthcare debate gets fired up again before elections. People were getting nauseated with the topic (even though it's vital).

 

[Gaborn]

Right, we know they hate the mandate. But the point is that they don't hate almost every aspect of Health Care reform: in fact, they love most of it. The only part that is MAYBE unconstitutional is the Republican part...ergo, if Obama had said "fuck it" to the Republicans, we wouldn't be here right now. And, by the way, even your LINK shows how muddled Americans opinions truly are. They've been talking point'd into believing horse shit about the law for years.

That is so much BULLSHIT. You know, I really don't care about the rest of your post, you're entitled to your opinion but seriously. The American public has been CONSISTENT on one thing for years. They've ALWAYS hated the mandate since this debate started under Obama. You've NEVER seen majority support for that provision. I'm tired of Democrats claiming "if they knew what was in it they'd like it" and you know what? the polling shows they DO know what is in it. They DO like it... they just don't like the individual mandate enough to sink the rest of the bill. Accept it. Live with it. And realize it's very possible the court will rule keeping the law minus the mandate (whether or not I think that's ideal). THAT is the public's hope anyway.

 

[Dash27]

The ONLY aspect that Americans consistently say they dislike is the individual mandate... the Republican idea.

Also known as "paying for it"

Do you want helthcare for all?
Sure!

Do you want Medicade expansion?
OK!

Do you want extended dependent coverage?
Why not!

That'll cost you...
Oh wait hold on, actually my healthcare coverage is fine. I'll pass.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I predict the latter. No way the healthcare debate gets fired up again before elections. People were getting nauseated with the topic (even though it's vital).

I very much doubt that. There will be a liberal uprising at the state level if the mandate is overturned. California is already making plans to push a single payer system through their legislature again, and now that the Terminator is out of office it has a good chance of being signed. I'm confident other states will follow if CA manages to pass it.

 

[el retorno]

Also known as "paying for it"

Do you want helthcare for all?
Sure!

Do you want Medicade expansion?
OK!

Do you want extended dependent coverage?
Why not!

That'll cost you...
Oh wait hold on, actually my healthcare coverage is fine. I'll pass.

Never mind the fact that the madate won't really affect any of those 35% or however that dislike it who already have care. And the fine is actually cheaper than buying care.

 

[kirblar]

That is so much BULLSHIT. You know, I really don't care about the rest of your post, you're entitled to your opinion but seriously. The American public has been CONSISTENT on one thing for years. They've ALWAYS hated the mandate since this debate started under Obama. You've NEVER seen majority support for that provision. I'm tired of Democrats claiming "if they knew what was in it they'd like it" and you know what? the polling shows they DO know what is in it. They DO like it... they just don't like the individual mandate enough to sink the rest of the bill. Accept it. Live with it. And realize it's very possible the court will rule keeping the law minus the mandate (whether or not I think that's ideal). THAT is the public's hope anyway.

What people need isn't always what they think they want.

 

[The Librarian]

That is so much BULLSHIT. You know, I really don't care about the rest of your post, you're entitled to your opinion but seriously. The American public has been CONSISTENT on one thing for years. They've ALWAYS hated the mandate since this debate started under Obama. You've NEVER seen majority support for that provision. I'm tired of Democrats claiming "if they knew what was in it they'd like it" and you know what? the polling shows they DO know what is in it. They DO like it... they just don't like the individual mandate enough to sink the rest of the bill. Accept it. Live with it. And realize it's very possible the court will rule keeping the law minus the mandate (whether or not I think that's ideal). THAT is the public's hope anyway.

That's not what's going on. There's no polling to indicate that the "hate" for the individual mandate is enough to sink the entire bill. What has been consistent is that people don't like the bill, but support the vast majority of stuff the bill has. Even majorities of Republicans support a lot of the bill's provisions. Polling has shown people don't know what's in it. Even so, were the individual mandate kept and put in place, I think you would see support for it rise, as is the case in MA.

 

[Gaborn]

What people need isn't always what they think they want.

Sure, but that's a TOTALLY different argument than blaming people's lack of knowledge or claiming they've been brainwashed into believing something when it's the one thing their opinion has been completely consistent on.

That's not what's going on. There's no polling to indicate that the "hate" for the individual mandate is enough to sink the entire bill. What has been consistent is that people don't like the bill, but support the vast majority of stuff the bill has. Even majorities of Republicans support a lot of the bill's provisions. Polling has shown people don't know what's in it. Even so, were the individual mandate kept and put in place, I think you would see support for it rise, as is the case in MA.

We KNOW polling shows the only provision they like is the individual mandate. We also know that polling shows the public wants the law ruled unconstitutional. It's not a hard stretch to believe they want it ruled unconstitutional because of the mandate.

 

[greatestjediever]

Also known as "paying for it"

Do you want helthcare for all?
Sure!

Do you want Medicade expansion?
OK!

Do you want extended dependent coverage?
Why not!

That'll cost you...
Oh wait hold on, actually my healthcare coverage is fine. I'll pass.

This. People just want their cake and to eat it too. People won't truly understand how serious this is until it finally breaks. Sure, people answer polls and a majority say 'cost of healthcare is big issue' and 'we want people to have access to healthcare', but most people don't do anything to stop it because they have no idea what that actually means.

Stop making it mandatory for hospitals to treat patients. Let hospitals start turning away patients at the door or when their coverage runs out. When more people start dying on the street cause nobody wants to pay for it, then it'll be a bigger concern.

 

[Amir0x]

That is so much BULLSHIT. You know, I really don't care about the rest of your post, you're entitled to your opinion but seriously. The American public has been CONSISTENT on one thing for years. They've ALWAYS hated the mandate since this debate started under Obama. You've NEVER seen majority support for that provision. I'm tired of Democrats claiming "if they knew what was in it they'd like it" and you know what? the polling shows they DO know what is in it. They DO like it... they just don't like the individual mandate enough to sink the rest of the bill. Accept it. Live with it. And realize it's very possible the court will rule keeping the law minus the mandate (whether or not I think that's ideal). THAT is the public's hope anyway.

For MONTHS during the health care debate Americans were hearing shit about death panels, about GUVMENT take over of health care, about lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie POUNDED into their head about what the law was really about. To them, the individual mandate is the one thing that encapsulated the lies they were being told: it was the symbol of the Republican push-back.

The reality is that if they DID know what it was like, they would almost certainly support it. That has been the case with landmark legislation for generations. We have historical precedent after historical precedent to show this is true. The public gets fear factored into believing one thing about a law, it passes and gets implemented, then they love it and don't want anybody to change a thing. If the law passed and individual Americans saw their own health care prices going down, saw their loved ones being covered, saw the very real way in which it was helping them... guess what, the fact that some people would have to pay a tax penalty for being irresponsible asstards and not buying health insurance would matter next to zilch to most people, guaranteed.

We have no way to show this because that's not what they currently see, so people desperately cling to how much they hate that ONE aspect that Republicans proposed as proof that they don't want anything. But the reality is historical precedent shows otherwise... most of the time Americans don't fundamentally understand how something works until it is in action.

 

[teruterubozu]

I very much doubt that. There will be a liberal uprising at the state level if the mandate is overturned. California is already making plans to push a single payer system through their legislature again, and now that the Terminator is out of office it has a good chance of being signed. I'm confident other states will follow if CA manages to pass it.

Well, you're talking about the dialogue switching to state level elections. I'm talking about the presidential race.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Oh god, there we go again... Defending a healthcare system that gets rewarded the worse it treats sick people.

 

[kirblar]

Sure, but that's a TOTALLY different argument than blaming people's lack of knowledge or claiming they've been brainwashed into believing something when it's the one thing their opinion has been completely consistent on.

Many people simply believe what they want to believe. It may be their opinion. It doesn't make it a rational, well-reasoned, or reasonable one. No one likes taxes. But they're a necessity.

The reality is that if they DID know what it was like, they would almost certainly support it.

This is one of the sad "liberal" faults- believing people are much more rational than they actually are.

 

[JCX]

I really hope I don't lose my insurance today, although I guess I could get a local charity to pay for my medications every month.

 

[IrishNinja]

is amirox still allowed to ether people like that

i mean, bilbo buggins may as we'llve been banned from this thread, he can't really come back from all that

 

[el retorno]

Stop making it mandatory for hospitals to treat patients. Let hospitals start turning away patients at the door or when their coverage runs out. When more people start dying on the street cause nobody wants to pay for it, then it'll be a bigger concern.

Yea, no. Ends don't justify the means.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

The insurance companies dont even cover the sickest people. Medicare covers all the strokes, dementias and heart attacks that happen after 65. And for young people that get sick and lose everything, Medicaid covers them.

The insurance companies mainly just insure the healthy people.

 

[el retorno]

The insurance companies dont even cover the sickest people. Medicare covers all the strokes, dementias and heart attacks that happen after 65. And for young people that get sick and lose everything, Medicaid covers them.

The insurance companies mainly just insure the healthy people.

Health people never have accidents? Get cancer out of the blue?

 

[Gaborn]

For MONTHS during the health care debate Americans were hearing shit about death panels, about GUVMENT take over of health care, about lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie POUNDED into their head about what the law was really about. To them, the individual mandate is the one thing that encapsulated the lies they were being told: it was the symbol of the Republican push-back.

The reality is that if they DID know what it was like, they would almost certainly support it. That has been the case with landmark legislation for generations. We have historical precedent after historical precedent to show this is true. The public gets fear factored into believing one thing about a law, it passes and gets implemented, then they love it and don't want anybody to change a thing. If the law passed and individual Americans saw their own health care prices going down, saw their loved ones being covered, saw the very real way in which it was helping them... guess what, the fact that some people would have to pay a tax penalty for being irresponsible asstards and not buying health insurance would matter next to zilch to most people, guaranteed.

We have no way to show this because that's not what they currently see, so people desperately cling to how much they hate that ONE aspect that Republicans proposed as proof that they don't want anything. But the reality is historical precedent shows otherwise... most of the time Americans don't fundamentally understand how something works until it is in action.

And you think the idiotic anti-fact messaging the republicans were doing 3 years ago still holds weight? Because I think most Americans have tuned it out over the years.