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GirlGAF |OT 2| Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Eve?

Frankly, this is a pet peeve of mine for a long time. Opiate, I'm writing you a NICE long PM about my concerns you should get in a bit.

Devolution said:
OR this

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=480354
Click to expand...

Don't worry Dev, now that our vigilant Mod team has been shown this pic thread (really starts devolving by page 3) I'm SURE they'll close it now that it's been pointed out. It's just that they never seem to have trouble stopping hot men threads right away but somehow magically ignore hot women threads /bitter
 
Gender shouldn't really come in to play when it comes to a good looking thread. We can all tell a good looking person regardless of sexual tastes.
 
cloudwalking said:
i have a question... is the issue with the pics with too much skin or is it the objectification of men as a whole that is the problem? can we post, like, non-shirtless guys? can we admire a pretty face or male beauty in general? just a bit unclear to me.
Click to expand...

There are a few problems. The first is that these sorts of threads tend to rapidly snowball in to a de facto "hot person" thread where those types of posts dominate discussion, as was rapidly becoming evident in here (look at how many posts occurred on that topic in such a short time span) and is readily apparent if you look at similar threads started by men.

By contrast, a good example of a sexual thread would be one started by devolution some time ago, entitled something like "Boys can be cute and silly." In that thread, there was largely discussion of what people found attractive (what style or what look), and the few pictures that existed were mostly illustrative of the ongoing discussion, rather than the point in themselves outright.

And that would be the crux of the discussion, I think. If you're simply posting pictures to say, "Look at this hot person," we probably would prefer you didn't do it. As stated, those tend to get out of control in a hurry, and in particular those threads got quickly out of hand when men posted their equivalents; I'm only trying to apply the rules as equivalently as possible.
 
Devolution said:
OR this

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=480354
Click to expand...

Just for a peek behind the curtain: I've closed 13 threads on sexual grounds in the last 2 weeks. All of these were "hot girl" threads, not "hot guy."

Again, you're essentially anomaly hunting, finding what are effectively cracks in moderator ability to find every problem in every thread. Yes, that is going to happen, and I'm quite confident that any rule you wanted to highlight could be shown to be irregularly moderated because we can't see every post and every thread.
 
Yeah we should totally get one, even though I probably wouldn't post much in it because I'm guessing 90% of it is going to be extremely muscular dudes with reaaalllyy ugly/butter faces. But yeah, its about time we get one for us girls, hell put it in the community section where people don't visit as often!

Guys are so much more sneaky about them topics. They make an "appreciation" topic about some actress/famous athlete and then take it from there. Don't think a female gaffer would be able to get away with it though. :(
 
Opiate said:
Just for a peek behind the curtain: I've closed 13 threads on sexual grounds in the last 2 weeks. All of these were "hot girl" threads, not "hot guy."

Again, you're essentially anomaly hunting, finding what are effectively cracks in moderator ability to find every problem in every thread. Yes, that is going to happen, and I'm quite confident that any rule you wanted to highlight could be shown to be irregularly moderated because we can't see every post and every thread.
Click to expand...

Then I'm not sure what the problem is. We'll find hot girl threads that are "anomalous" and PM you them. Problem solved and we'll be cleaning up GAF. I think that would satisfy everyone, wouldn't it?
 
Inanna said:
Yeah we should totally get one, even though I probably wouldn't post much in it because I'm guessing 90% of it is going to be extremely muscular dudes with reaaalllyy ugly/butter faces. But yeah, its about time we get one for us girls, hell put it in the community section where people don't visit as often!

Guys are so much more sneaky about them topics. They make an "appreciation" topic about some actress/famous athlete and then take it from there. Don't think a female gaffer would be able to get away with it though. :(
Click to expand...

This is definitely part of the problem. For example, the olympian threads often start off acceptably; there is no problem discussing a female athlete or even mentioning that she is pretty. Or that he is handsome.

The problem arises when that "comment" becomes the whole thread, and her hotness becomes the de facto purpose of discussion. GIFs, pictures, and "I would totally wreck that" posts becoming increasingly frequent.

Yes, guys have often gotten very deliberately good at hiding these from us. What are ostensibly acceptable threads often become unacceptable over time, and so we not only have to see the threads, we have to monitor them over time to make sure they don't degenerate.
 
teamarb300x20.jpg


so who here does any sewing?
 
I've made some stuff. Motherly related stuff, nothing I would actually wear. Oh wait, I wore the baby wrap all over the zoo.

I'm kinda sad I missed posting the man appreciation stuff. I would have Karl Urban'd the place up and irritated my husband. XD
 
Devolution said:
teamarb300x20.jpg


so who here does any sewing?
Click to expand...

Not a girl, but I sew. I still have 50 year old women that doubt I can do it and then make fun of me for actually doing it.

Strangely I get more shit from women for it than men.

That's their problem though, sewing machines are badass. My mom has one (Singer, I think?) she got from her mom that's from like the 1920s or some shit, it has a massive iron pedal that you have to use your feet to operate.

It looks like this. It transforms into a desk when not in use.

1328274.jpg


junque1088.jpg


It still works, was last used in something like 2008 or so
 
My mom has one of those too, but I don't think it works. I got a cheapy Brother machine, but it does okay for what little stuff I do. I couldn't imagine giving anyone grief for sewing-it takes such dedication to do well at it.
 
Oh my sister has that same sewing machine/desk combo! Only the paint isn't in as good condition as yours. Its very faded and rubbed off in places. But the desk is great.
 
Devolution said:
I usually just sew holes up in clothing but I can sew book bindings.
Click to expand...

I wish they would have let me do it when I worked at a library. They just handed you a bunch of tape and said "tape it up until it doesn't come apart anymore".

Also at said library, the head of circulation had a stuffed heavy cat thing that held the gate for the circ desk open. A patron bumped into it and beheaded the cat while she was out, one of the clerks started freaking out and I was all "HEY I CAN FIX THAT IF YOU CAN FIND A NEEDLE AND THREAD", she doubted me at first but I was able to take it to the back room and fix it up with no visible way to tell it had been beheaded or that I had fixed it.

Fucking libraries, they're so awesome to work inside of but I swear they're where the world's supply of melodrama is manufactured.
 
Aaaand I missed all the fun. Oh, well.

As for sewing, I LOVE sewing up small holes in shirts and putting buttons back on. I don't know why. It's just very soothing busy work. SEND ME ALL YOUR NEEDED MENDINGS!
 
I get out a day and suddenly this thread turns into pages of gorgeous men ????
wtf !
...why it stoped =|

Devolution said:
I usually just sew holes up in clothing but I can sew book bindings.
Click to expand...

Sewing books for some magical reason is the only thing I can sew without turning my finger into a bloody net
 
I don't sew too much (lack the equipment) but I've done a few things that I'm proud of semi-recently. I made my partner these two Metroid plushies for Christmas in 2010:

1vvW3l.jpg


And painstakingly hand-stitched all of these patches onto my messenger bag last year (took me FOREVER and damn my fingers hurt afterward but it was also kind of a cathartic exercise :-P):

Da0M3l.jpg
 
FyreWulff said:
Not a girl, but I sew. I still have 50 year old women that doubt I can do it and then make fun of me for actually doing it.

Strangely I get more shit from women for it than men.

That's their problem though, sewing machines are badass. My mom has one (Singer, I think?) she got from her mom that's from like the 1920s or some shit, it has a massive iron pedal that you have to use your feet to operate.

It looks like this. It transforms into a desk when not in use.

1328274.jpg


junque1088.jpg


It still works, was last used in something like 2008 or so
Click to expand...

This cat uses a sewing machine better than me
vH1xx.gif
 
CleverGirl said:
Perhaps a few scholarly articles on male beauty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12215138


This one is a paper on the evolution of the Playgirl centerfold. (overall since the 70's men have been getting more ripped)

http://www.afboard.com/library/CulturalExpectationsofMuscularityinMen.pdf
Click to expand...

That second study is very interesting. It cites other studies which have found cultural ideals for feminine beauty have gotten progressively skinnier over the last few decades (this is probably not surprising to the audience here), but in particular finds that male ideals of beauty have gotten larger and more muscular over the same time frame.

article said:
The centerfolds&#8217; BMI was positively correlated with the date, r = .29, p < .01, which
indicates that the centerfolds became more &#8220;dense&#8221; over time. However, their percent of
Cultural Expectations of Muscularity 91
body fat was negatively correlated with the date, r = &#8722;.34, p < .01. Thus, their muscularity,
as reflected by FFMI, increased even more sharply over time than the BMI, r = .38, p < .01.
Click to expand...

Article said:
Our analysis of Playgirl centerfold models augments the growing evidence that the
cultural norm for the ideal male body has become increasingly muscular over the years,
especially during the 1990s. These findings appear congruent with other observations of
trends in the ideal male body image in our society, as reflected in magazines (Andersen
& DiDomenico, 1992; Nemeroff et al., 1994), action toys (Pope et al.,1999), and in other
media. Although the cause of this trend is not certain, the discovery and dissemination of
anabolic steroids may be a factor (Kouri et al., 1995).
Click to expand...

My first thought is that, despite generally growing equality between the genders, our ideals of male and female beauty have grown increasingly sexist: we seem to prefer small, thin women and huge, muscular men much more than did our parents and grandparents. Why do you think this change in preferences has occured?
 
Opiate said:
My first thought is that, despite generally growing equality between the genders, our ideals of male and female beauty have grown increasingly sexist: we seem to prefer small, thin women and huge, muscular men much more than did our parents and grandparents. Why do you think this change in preferences has occured?
Click to expand...

How is that sexist? It's not like prettyboys are unpopular.
 
The Anti-Monitor said:
How is that sexist? It's not like prettyboys are unpopular.
Click to expand...

The promotion of the image of thin, small women and big, muscular, powerful men as ideal is the literal reinforcement of traditional gender roles. I don't see how one could possibly spin that as anything but sexist: it fosters conditions which promote stereotypes and distinct gender roles. That is the definition of sexism.

The question I was asking isn't whether it's sexist (I don't think there is a reasonable argument that it isn't, but I suppose I'm willing to listen), but rather, why this sexist behavior is gradually increasing. Why are men preferring progressively thinner, more dominutive women? Why are women preferring progessively larger, more muscular men?

The study proposes the discovery (and increasing use of) anabolic steroids, but that would only explain the female perspective, not necessarily the male one. It also proposes that relatively increasing equality between men and women over the last few decades generally has led to increasing inequality of sexual preferences, as a sort of compensation or outlet. That makes more sense to me and would explain both phenomenon simultaneously. Ockham's Razor always prefers such solutions.

I was interested to see if anyone else had any plausible explanations, though, as the study makes no real attempt to explain why the trend is occuring, just that it is.
 
Scientifically, women like men who are larger because it means the male can protect them. In reverse, I would think men would like women whom they can protect.

It's also a social status thing. Heavier women used to be richer. Now it's the opposite.

Standards of beauty are entirely a societal concept.
 
Zoe said:
Aren't most Playgirl readers male?
Click to expand...

If true, this would be an interesting explanation. Perhaps men are the driving force behind both stereotypes of women and of themselves? However, it sounds like these conclusions are based off multiple sources and not just their centerfold study (several other concurrent studies are cited in the article). I'm not sure if this explanation would apply to all examples or not.

Masoria said:
Scientifically, women like men who are larger because it means the male can protect them. In reverse, I would think men would like women whom they can protect.

It's also a social status thing. Heavier women used to be richer. Now it's the opposite.

Standards of beauty are entirely a societal concept.
Click to expand...

I think this is the obvious explanation (although that doesn't make it right). The question then is why we're moving towards distinct gender roles in this case, rather than away from them.

Put differently, there are lots of ways for women to be dependant upon or "protected" by men. They can be protected/dependent economically (i.e. the man provides the money / resources), they can be dependent intellectually (i.e. the man makes the large, important household decisions), they can be dependent politically (i.e. women do not have the right to vote or customarily vote however their man does), they can be dependent emotionally, or in any other number of ways.

And in almost all these ways, we have made significant strides towards equality between men and women, where women are no longer protected by / dependent on men. They are much more independent financially (wages for women have gone up over time, there are more jobs for women in general), more independent intellectually (women are advancing much further in high education), politically (obviously women can vote today), and so forth. While we aren't perfectly equal yet by any means, we can see ourselves moving in that direction over time. So why are we moving away from men as the stereotypical protectors/providers economically, emotionally, politically, and intellectually, but moving towards this stereotype physically?
 
Not everyone likes huge guys, I like athletic build men with handsome or cute faces. I hate the term pretty boy though, I'm not exactly sure why, I guess because sometimes when people say a guy is a "pretty boy" they usually means they're not manly enough.

I think girls, especially the upcoming generation like skinnier guys more. Have you seen how many pre-teens and early teens love Bieber? Or the Twilight guy?
 
I've always thought that the typical '6 pack abs and ripped look' (within reason) was something that was desirable to all women (and men for that matter). However, as I have read in various posts/forums from GAF and other places, there is a lot more variety in body types that I originally thought. I admit that it is quite ignorant of me to assume one thing but it has opened my eye on that subject.
 
Inanna said:
Not everyone likes huge guys, I like athletic build men with handsome or cute faces. I hate the term pretty boy though, I'm not exactly sure why, I guess because sometimes when people say a guy is a "pretty boy" they usually means they're not manly enough.

I think girls, especially the upcoming generation like skinnier guys more. Have you seen how many pre-teens and early teens love Bieber? Or the Twilight guy?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's entirely possible that the trend will reverse itself.

Devolution said:
Using Playgirl as a frame of reference seems dubious. Especially now that they essentially cater to gay men.
Click to expand...

I do find this argument fairly compelling, although as stated the article does point to similar studies using other methods which find the same basic result.

Regardless, generally, it does seem entirely possible that both sides of the inequality are being pushed by men, rather than women. This doesn't mean some women don't like it, just that the overall cultural trend -- if it exists -- may be majoratively or primarily catalyzed by men.

Am I incorrect in saying that other cultures have moved away from these traditional gender roles on a physical level? That is, I am under the impression that some cultures have moved more towards physical androgyny, or more towards an acceptance of taller women, and shorter men, and so forth -- am I making that up? I've not researched these attitudes at all, and my cultural knowledge is fairly limited outside the U.S.
 
Opiate said:
Yes, it's entirely possible that the trend will reverse itself.



I do find this argument fairly compelling, although as stated the article does point to similar studies using other methods which find the same basic result.

Regardless, generally, it does seem entirely possible that both sides of the inequality are being pushed by men, rather than women. This doesn't mean some women don't like it, just that the overall cultural trend -- if it exists -- may be majoratively or primarily catalyzed by men.

Am I incorrect in saying that other cultures have moved away from these traditional gender roles on a physical level? That is, I am under the impression that some cultures have moved more towards physical androgyny, or more towards an acceptance of taller women, and shorter men, and so forth -- am I making that up? I've not researched these attitudes at all, and my cultural knowledge is fairly limited outside the U.S.
Click to expand...

Among my friends slender men are much more appealing than hulking dudes. The hunks in Asia reflect this as well.
 
Opiate said:
I do find this argument fairly compelling, although as stated the article does point to similar studies using other methods which find the same basic result.

Regardless, generally, it does seem entirely possible that both sides of the inequality are being pushed by men, rather than women. This doesn't mean some women don't like it, just that the overall cultural trend -- if it exists -- may be majoratively or primarily catalyzed by men.
Click to expand...

I think it's fair to say that images portrayed are going to be largely influenced by 1) the people producing them and 2) the target audience.

I have absolutely nothing to back this up, but back when stick-thin, flat-breasted actresses were all the rage (early 00's maybe?) a lot of women in different communities were blaming gay stylists and designers for trying to make women more boyish.
 
Having a certain preference for a certain body type isn't sexist. You can go all semantics and say "this root word with this suffix means yadda yadda" and divorce the word from context it's usually used in, but doing so only helps to confuse the discussion, especially since then you would also have to say that having a sexual preference at all is sexist.


Zoe said:
I think it's fair to say that images portrayed are going to be largely influenced by 1) the people producing them and 2) the target audience.

I have absolutely nothing to back this up, but back when stick-thin, flat-breasted actresses were all the rage (early 00's maybe?) a lot of women in different communities were blaming gay stylists and designers for trying to make women more boyish.
Click to expand...

There is some data and information out there that points to models being made into the ideal form of beauty because they're more masculine. Basically we can't win.
 
Masoria said:
Scientifically, women like men who are larger because it means the male can protect them. In reverse, I would think men would like women whom they can protect.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but this sounds SO WRONG

"women like the color pink more because they colected berries" WRONG

People like others because of MATING.
it is all about SEX, not protection or anything like that
Guys are biologicaly focused on getting girls wth huge hips and breasts because they will create babies more and girls are biological atracted to health dudeds (usualy means a more symmetrical face) and fertile.

You can be a Nomura and Amano design rejected and still be perfectly heath and fertile =P
 
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