Not at all. That's not to say I agree with every ban decision, it seems like console "fanboyism" is grounds for an insta ban in some cases but PC gamers can get away with a lot more. I don't like that at all. I also don't really like banning people for having objectionable opinions on controversial topics in the OT.
Is GAF too strict?
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
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Roland Garros
Banned
Well next time I'll PM you then. Thanks for replying.
Freezie KO
Banned
It's only too strict if you think having a hivemind is bad. For maximum sharing of opinions? Yes, it's too strict. For community-building of like-minded people? No, it's serving its purpose, and you can go elsewhere if you don't like it.
bishop does one thing: bans people. That's it.
There's a reason his avatar is on all the banned gifs.
Devolution
Member
Not true. He also gives out tags.
wrong, he is the one who gives tags, and I believe he and evilore are the only two capable of that..
I've PM'd mods about stuff and they were quick to resolve it.
Hitokage can too.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Bish isn't even real. Can't believe you're all buying into it.
GAF mods are fine. I been banned once or twice as a junior and am still around. So they can't be too strict. I probably deserved it too, can't remember.
GAF mods are fine. I been banned once or twice as a junior and am still around. So they can't be too strict. I probably deserved it too, can't remember.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Not at all. I think it's just about right.
The main reason I come here is because I can expect to actually be able to have a conversation about whatever the topic is instead of having every thread go into YouTube comments territory.
Zero tolerance for stupid shit that pervades the Internet like racist, sexist, and homophobic comments is great, too.
The main reason I come here is because I can expect to actually be able to have a conversation about whatever the topic is instead of having every thread go into YouTube comments territory.
Zero tolerance for stupid shit that pervades the Internet like racist, sexist, and homophobic comments is great, too.
Absolutely not. That's my point: I feel 'cunt' is culturally distinct from words with intrinsically racist or sexist definitions.
'Cunt' as an insult is not inherently gendered. It can be, but in practise, it's generally used to trump 'fuck'; even in North America. Fuck' has transcended its root definition as an adjective. 'Fuck-head' has no meaning beyond the combination of an offensive word and a noun with intent to insult. It casts no aspersions on those who enjoy fucking, yet as an insult it has power due to the cultural weight bestowed upon the word in and of itself. I would argue that 'cunt' has similarly transcended its meaning as a noun when used as a curse.
The word 'cunt' has many facets. It's what my Canadian wife calls her vagina, because she feels 'pussy' is infantile. Many North American feminists are trying to reclaim the word not primarily from its status as a gendered insult, but because they want to remove its vulgarity as a synonym for their genitals and return its eroticism. They want to reduce its linguistic weight and let it stand alongside 'cock' in common use. 'Cunt' evolved alongside 'cock' and 'fuck'; none of which were considered obscene when they made their way into the Anglo-Saxon lexicon. Meanings of words change and evolve - 'faggot' has no usage in contemporary English that is not a homophobic slur - but 'cunt' is not so far gone.
By contrast, someone who claimed that 'faggot' was still being commonly used to describe a bundle of twigs wouldn't have a leg to stand on. It isn't, precisely because its definition as a slur has buried any innocuous meaning it once had. And like the phrase 'that's so gay', it only has power to insult when defined as a homophobic slur. The same cannot be said of 'cunt' - like 'fuck', in the context of an insult, it has become a meaningless vulgarity, and is more often than not used as such.
I've honestly only heard 'cunt' used as a gendered insult by redneck-types over the age of 50. In younger North Americans, it seems to be evolving into something much more British: a multi-purpose swear word with more power than 'fuck', and an insult with no gender bias. It is not synonymous with hate speech, and as others have said, I feel that it's culturally less gendered than 'bitch'.
My whole point of view on this topic is necessarily subjective. I can't point to anything but my own experience and the type of usage seen on GAF to lend weight to my position. I accept we probably won't agree about its place on the forum, but thanks for giving me a chance to defend the word.
Lord British
Member
It does, sort of, but only on the internet - terms like "faggotry" don't - in my opinion - represent intentional homophobia, rather more like "this is stupid" or "you're an idiot". I think when you see "faggot" online you're not necessarily seeing hate anymore. Of course, I'm thinking of the 4chan usage, which is one big conceptual joke, but the sheer frequency of its use does de-fang the term somewhat.
Not that I'm suggesting it should become commonplace, obviously it's still touchy, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's "reclaimed" eventually.
I know what you're saying - it's the South Park biker argument - but while the word might eventually evolve into something harmless; its capacity to insult is still intrinsically bound up in its power as a homophobic slur. No one things of 'fag' as directly synonymous with 'moron' in terms of power; it's used because it has greater cultural strength to denigrate, and that's because of its weight as a slur. If anything, this use of 'fag' is more like 'retard'; which is profoundly insensitive and intrinsically offensive to a large group of people, but remains a word to which mainstream culture has generally become inured.
Lord British
Member
Oh yeah for sure. I haven't seen the South Park you're referencing but I understand. Basically, I don't (and I'm not saying you do) assume malice in users of those words, necessarily, much like with "c**t".
GAF has its quirks, with what can and cannot be posted/discussed.
But there are a number of people here who need therapy or something. On other forums I used to frequent they would have been banned relatively quickly, here, some of them flourish.
But that is what makes GAF interesting.
But there are a number of people here who need therapy or something. On other forums I used to frequent they would have been banned relatively quickly, here, some of them flourish.
But that is what makes GAF interesting.
Additionally, in the 4chan use of faggot, the first wave of people to use it generally aren't homophobic in any way, similar to the "tits or gtfo" stuff, but as it proliferates through further web generations it becomes more and more serious. while at first its funny, the second it becomes a meme it, A) becomes shitty and played out, and B) becomes unthinking. it reverts to its original meaning when it loses the purpose of parodying the people that actually think like that.
The initial use is similar to the lyrics referencing abuse, murder, etc.. in big black / rapeman songs. When steve albini writes a song called "Pray I dont kill you faggot" in a project called "run nigger run", there should be no doubt in your mind that is isn't a racist/homophobe. There needs to be a place for the dysphemistic use of slurs / hate terms to make a point like this.
The initial use is similar to the lyrics referencing abuse, murder, etc.. in big black / rapeman songs. When steve albini writes a song called "Pray I dont kill you faggot" in a project called "run nigger run", there should be no doubt in your mind that is isn't a racist/homophobe. There needs to be a place for the dysphemistic use of slurs / hate terms to make a point like this.
Buddha Beam
Banned
And makes some of us junior members!
Broder Salsa
Banned
That's also a tag to be proud of.
There are some interesting discussions around different usages and attempts to reclaim the word in feminism, I agree. There have been books written about the matter.
But I think you have things backwards. Speaking only of the United States, as that is the only place I can speak of, cunt is verboten in a way other words - the obvious exception aside - simply aren't, as discussed in the linked article. Perhaps it is somewhat different in Canada; I obviously cannot say. And I know that it is different in the UK, for instance. And as someone who regularly reads feminist blogs and has seen some of the vitriol directed towards women in the atheist and skeptics movement(s) as well as some of the responses to the Tropes vs Women Kickstarter, I know that "cunt" as a gendered slur is very much alive and well.
You're right that they'd be wrong in saying that it wasn't homophobic. It is because of the way that the meanings of words and how they are used interact to color their meaning in different uses. When a lot of kids (hell, GAFfers) talk about using faggot as an insult, they use the exact same defense you just used earlier for "cunt": the meanings of words change, so while faggot might be a slur against gay men, no one actually uses it like that. Instead, it is just a general nondescript insult without any connection to gay men.
This is nonsense, as you argued; my argument is essentially that people who think the same thing about "cunt" - at least as far as the U.S. goes - are probably heavily insulated from misogynistic uses of the term and thus think that it is nonexistent. But it isn't; it's just taboo to the point that it is rarely seen.
I think "bitch" is similarly gendered. And I don't think we're anywhere on that path. I mean, female body part insults are popular with a lot of gay men I know, and the most risque it gets off the internet among people I know is twat. I haven't noticed this widespread pattern of "cunt" being in common use as an insult among people my age (25), anyway.
Of course. I can tell that your experience of this word is very different from mine; I have never heard it in real life that I can recall, and the vast majority of the non-GAF uses I have seen weren't implicitly misogynistic; they were unadorned misogynistic attacks on women they were upset with. Obviously this influences my view on the word's place.
I had a feeling I was being referred to.....
No one said that it isn't used as an insult against gay men. The claim was that it was ALSO being used to mean *something else*.
Words have more than one meaning based on their context. This is a fact.
No one said that it isn't used as an insult against gay men. The claim was that it was ALSO being used to mean *something else*.
Words have more than one meaning based on their context. This is a fact.
cutmeamango
Banned
Sweatpants are obligatory.
I wasn't saying (... or if I misphrased, it was an accident) that anyone said it wasn't an insult towards gay men; I was saying that people were arguing that that definition is not in common use and it has been superseded by the more generic usage and this more generic usage could be used as an insult without being homophobic.
And it was your failure to recognize context that is the problem. But I'm going to bed now.
Edit: Dammit, you tricked me. I don't want to turn this topic into a debate about this, so can you PM me instead if you want to argue about it? But I really am going to bed now. <_<
GAF isn't too strict, it's a nice place to discuss things or simply to chill.
However, gaffers should be aware that the majority of the users are from the US. Therefore many topics are taboo or very strictly handled (while in other countries, they wouldn't be a big deal), some threads are a mine field, and I have to hold myself back - otherwise I would be banned.
However, gaffers should be aware that the majority of the users are from the US. Therefore many topics are taboo or very strictly handled (while in other countries, they wouldn't be a big deal), some threads are a mine field, and I have to hold myself back - otherwise I would be banned.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
It's one of the only forums where everyone seems to type properly and post like decent human beings.
Pinko Marx
Banned
At the risk of my account...I've seen some bans that I thought was total BS so I'm inclined to say yes GAF is too strict at times.
But this is one of the more mature(r) online communities so the trade-off is justified...at times.
But this is one of the more mature(r) online communities so the trade-off is justified...at times.
GAF is pretty strict when it comes to talking about women. I thought a lot of the bans given out to people by that Dragona mod was really unfair. A lot of the posts were obviously jokes but of course dumb asses kept quoting those posts with "OH OH!", "IT WAS NICE KNOWING YOU!", "GOODBYE!".
I absolutely hate those posts.. It encourages mod action to please the hive mind..
One area that I think GAF can get stricter on is stupid threads made by notable members. I won't list names. I get it that they're pretty much GAF Heroes but if they get to post crap threads while others get punished for it with "junior" status I don't find that really fair.
edit: I don't really care about it really, its just something I noticed. I'm mainly in community threads anyway.
I enjoy my time here though
Staying out of trouble!
edit:
On the topic of slurs..
"Faggot" shouldn't be used. Just a terrible word.
"Cunt" I'm fine with but I'm from Australia.. I understand why it would be a banned word though.
I absolutely hate those posts.. It encourages mod action to please the hive mind..
One area that I think GAF can get stricter on is stupid threads made by notable members. I won't list names. I get it that they're pretty much GAF Heroes but if they get to post crap threads while others get punished for it with "junior" status I don't find that really fair.
edit: I don't really care about it really, its just something I noticed. I'm mainly in community threads anyway.
I enjoy my time here though
Staying out of trouble!edit:
On the topic of slurs..
"Faggot" shouldn't be used. Just a terrible word.
"Cunt" I'm fine with but I'm from Australia.. I understand why it would be a banned word though.
The Ban List is a really good idea and will improve the community because it serves as a self-updating rules list.
This lessens some of the "I didn't know that was bannable" issues since if, for example, you only post on gaming you'd have no idea what memes are bannable on OT.
All other forums that use it have improved as a result.
This lessens some of the "I didn't know that was bannable" issues since if, for example, you only post on gaming you'd have no idea what memes are bannable on OT.
All other forums that use it have improved as a result.
Don't forget .Gif avatars!
I liked that move as well. I am a party kill.
That move was excellent. The only people who didn't/don't like it are those who had annoying GIFs as their avatars..
That was great until everyone just started using even more obnoxious reaction gifs in their stead.
It is a fairly safe word. The only caveat I'd add is that as with any other insult, better safe than sorry when directing towards other users. It isn't a certainty, but it's always possible a mod might misread.
charlequin
Banned
One of the posts earlier in this thread that complained about being "banned for an opinion" neglected to mention that the opinion in question was that the Holocaust was exaggerated.
I think this is a good place to note that there seem to be a lot of posts in threads like this that start with an assumption that we're somehow missing the fact that banning people for having certain opinions is reducing the range of acceptable discussion. In fact, we're quite aware of that; when people are banned for having specific opinions (and this is still quite a bit rarer than many seem to assume), it's because we don't want to preside over a community where some kinds of awful opinions are allowed to run free.
We're very explicit about GAF being a tolerant community in which bigotry is not acceptable. When people's "opinions" run afoul of this, they're not welcome here. "Jews are all greedy" is not a legitimate "opinion" here. Neither is "gay men are all sexually immoral" or "women in general are gold-digging harpies." People who want to be part of the NeoGAF community need to accept upfront that we have a clear-cut house standard on a lot of nominally "political" issues and that there's not actually room for debate here on those topics beyond a certain point.
The next thread where you see this happen, please send me a PM.
RPGnet is also a shithole. If anything, GAF moderation aims to be as unlike RPGnet moderation as possible. For example:
Never, ever going to happen. Ban lists encourage endless nitpickery over extremely minor matters of moderation policy: why did this person get 12 days when this other person got 4? Why does this mod seem to ban more often than this other mod? And so on, and so forth. It is not a constructive contributor to building a friendly community.
Well, sorry to hear you disagree, but I stand by what I said that in the forums I've seen it implemented, it's always helped and improved the community. With internet, I've found you need to be 100% word-for-word clear, otherwise it'll be misinterpreted.
People already wonder about bans all the time. And those questions often are unanswered--meaning that the members need to figure out for themselves why the ban happened. Which means that people have to ask, and then several posts later, someone wagers it was post X. If the goal is to encourage people to NOT discuss bans, as evilore has said he doesn't like, then the logical thing to do would be to be clear on what is bannable at all times. Especially as the rules have not been updated in a while, which means it's up to the individual moderator's opinion each time, which means people can be banned for a rule they never knew about simply because they didn't post and read every thread.
I've never been banned, but I do feel sorry sometimes for people who do get banned when they just didn't know word X was bannable.
IrishNinja
Member
looking at gaming side the last few days....nah, it's not strict enough.
we've got some serious console warrior bullshit going on there and it's getting to a point where it looks like volunteer viral work. i checked the FAQ forum and found stump's post on such but i don't know if many mods are keeping score on that side...kinda worries me for the coming cycle & collective quality therein.
we've got some serious console warrior bullshit going on there and it's getting to a point where it looks like volunteer viral work. i checked the FAQ forum and found stump's post on such but i don't know if many mods are keeping score on that side...kinda worries me for the coming cycle & collective quality therein.
HoodWinked
Member
whenever i post something funny i always fear the next time i log on and be greeted with the ban screen 
Excellent article - I'd never heard of the word 'cunt' beingtided to mean ultra-feminine before; fascinating stuff.
it's truly fascinating how differently people can experience something like language in otherwise largely homogenous cultures. I grew up in the UK, and moved to Canada a decade ago. I had never, ever heard 'cunt' used as a slur on the female gender in Britain. I don't think it's possible to use it like that in the UK, because even in the most perfectly misogynistic context, the slur would be obfuscated by its haze of casual vulgarity. It would also seem old fashioned; like trying to shame someone for being divorced.
Use of the word is not as liberal as this in Canada, but I've still never heard it used as a slur in practise. As you say, this is could well be because it's too taboo for the misogynists to use above ground; but I'd argue that that trend in and of itself points to an evolution of the word in common use. My Canadian peers are made up of three fairly distinct social groups. Students (of all genders, but predominantly female) who throw around the word 'cunt' for both political reasons and as a quaint Britishism; people in the metal scene (predominantly male), who throw it around in place of fuck' due to the greater power of the word; and various sporty types who I know through memberships at various gyms and clubs. This latter group tends to be less diverse than one might imagine. Most are more conservative than the average, and rarely swear at all - casual f-bombs when in pain. Of those who swear more frequently, the use of 'cunt' correlates perfectly with level of rebelliousness in personality. All Canadians who use the word do so casually, though unlike the British, they're more careful about doing it in familiar company that won't be offended: "Ah, cunt. I stubbed my toe, "That guy? What a cunt," and, by the more progressive/vulgar/awesome feminists, "Ow. That was my cunt, jackass." I don't often witness fits of rage these days, but I've heard "You CUNT!" often enough in my time; almost always by men against men, or women against women. If I've ever heard it used by a man against a woman, any implied misogyny was lost on me due to my exposure to the word.
My exposure to the word's interpretation in American culture is primarily through its infrequent use in various forms of American media, and US-GAF. Given your experience with the word there seems to be a nasty, pervasive internet subculture who intend to shackle it to sexism for as long as they can; in which case your (and GAFs) stance is much easier to understand.
Any examples?
Trent Strong
Banned
I remember being mildly shocked, as an American, when the guys in Trainspotting referred to themselves or other tough guys as "hard cunts."
He's the only mod i'm scared of, because some of the bans he unleashed seemed too harsh to me, i think i wouldn't comfortably get into an argument with him as i would (and did) with other mods.
But of course, it's just a general impression.
My friend from Glasgow told me that him and his Glaswegian friends use 'cunt' so often that it basically means 'person'.
iapetus was the mod who always scared me, because he vaguely insinuated I might either get a tag or a ban from him sometime in 2008.
Antiochus
Member
Per say, the problem is not so much creeping authoritariansim (which by fact is present here), but one of 'birds of the same feather flock together'. It is well known this forum features lopsided majorities of certain ideological tendencies, one that is not at all representative even of its own kind, let alone the net and real society at large. Being so homogeneous in its composition tends to produce certain dynamics that push things into certain ways while (massively) discouraging others. It is well known in recent sociology that the like minded, when congregating together with little to no participants from the "opposition" tends to drive discussion as a whole towards certain extremes. Perhaps that's simply reflected onto the moderator class, who derive, by the laws of nature, from the majority in the first place.
For the most part, I feel it is just fine. But there are times when having a different opinion becomes a problem. GAF tends to have a hive mind mentality at times and if you disagree, you are pretty much shunned by every poster with "LOL WAT" and "You're an idiot" posts. This leads to a huge public outcry and bam! You're banned.
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