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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
- Thread starter Opiate
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All 5 of them? It's not an issue with the black community over here at all.
Yeah that terrible misconception that Black people are nice and friendly and skilled in everything huh?
freenudemacusers
Member
Oh my lols
Yes, the cultural context of Jim Crow, post-slavery de jure segregation. Minstrel shows were intrinsically linked to the racist political culture.
EDIT: Apparently it's even older, from the Reconstruction-era.
Modern Zwarte Piet has none of that.
This explains why it hasn't changed, not why it shouldn't change. If/when the momentum grows for change of the character and it's not external, are you going to stand by those people because they are now the larger voice?
You mean all 5 people in your black community? See, I can generalize too. Doesn't make for a good discussion though.
You're right, those children were only calling all those black people Black Peter because they were handing them candy and doing tricks with their bearded white employer.
freenudemacusers
Member
Whoa there, just because some aspects may have been linked to racism and segregation, it does not mean the depiction and behavior is racist. Nobody sees it that way, they are two seperate things. If you asked anyone they'd be cool with it, even black people. So stop blowing this up to be a big deal.
im talking about black Pete lulz
It would make for a better discussion if you actually knew Dutch black people. If Dutch black people find offense in this that's fine. Having foreigners acting like they know the feelings of Dutch black people is hilarious.
Here's the thing Dutch black people for example don't have that much trouble finding work. Sure it worse then white people, but it ain't that different. Moroccans are the minority group that have the problems with finding work. Racism against blacks in the workplace is hardly a big issue. It's constantly improving as well. This is the Netherlands not the United States, stop assuming they have the same problems.
Minstrel shows explicitly include race, and this is an inherent element of the artform.
Modern Zwarte Piet doesn't.
Thus your attempt at equating the two falls flat.
This key difference seems to be hard to grasp.
But even if he knew a handful of Dutch black people who are upset about Zwarte Piet it doesn't mean anything. They are a small minority even within the black Dutch community.
The overwhelming number of Dutch people, black and white, yound and old, male and female, think it the current depiction of Zwarte Piet isn't racist and shouldn't be changed. That says a lot. And sure the majority could be wrong, that could always happen, but they aren't... and somehow I haven't seen an American in here who said that that very small minority could be wrong, just because they view it with their own cultural background and can't fathom the idea that cultures can be different...
Black folks here say it isn't as well, nice try though.
Except for the ones that do. But it's ok, they're just a minority.
I'm not white though...
Nice try again, but they are a small minority in the black community also...
So what is more likely that it isn't racist and there a bunch of (too easily) offended people, like you can find on every subject, or that the overwhelming majority of Dutch are racists, even the overwhelming majority of non-native (black) Dutch people...
It isn't perceived as racist because two different cultures living in two different countries know, feel and experience it as non-racist, and have made sure to remove any colonial origins from the folklore.
freenudemacusers
Member
so explain the afro and red lips. We already have a lame excuse for the
Why do we need one? That's just how they look.
freenudemacusers
Member
Why
People don't perceive those elements as offensive. So there is no undercurrent to remove them.
Why does any fictional character look they way they do?
I am sure you want me to say it's because of its racist past, which it is. But that doesn't matter anymore. We have moved beyond that. He largely looks the same as he did in the past. But the meaning has moved away from that racist origin. And almost every Dutch person, black and white agrees with that.
So it is a remnant from its past. And if a kid asks why are the lips of Zwarte Piet red? (which they won't because they don't notice it, because that is the way Zwarte Piet looks) you tell them it's because Zwarte Pieten have red lips.
There is no explanation needed.
freenudemacusers
Member
So, we agree that the depiction (that is still in use) is rooted in racism. Only took 17 pages.
Seriously, why is this so hard.
Always-honest
Banned
Nothing wrong with doing it like this:
People have been saying that Zwarte Piet has racist origins for much longer in this thread.
But the modern incarnation has eroded any colonial and racial meaning. Hence the shared cultural perspective no longer considers it offensive.
Except that we have acknowledged that from probably first page onward. I think I have said that 20 times already in this topic. So not sure what you were trying to fish for? Or haven't you been paying 0 attention?
PdotMichael
Banned
like christmas, so what's the point?
It is if we do it to cater foreigners. Why should we change something because people who don't understand it view it incorrectly and make assumptions that are wrong? If the majority of Dutch black people were offended by this I am all for giving this a discussion. Until then, not my problem.
So who are the people in the OP that are being offended? Are they all foreigners or are they Dutch black people? And if they are dutch black people you'd be ok with them being offended?
I "like" how every time I mention anything completely not relevant to the issue I'm trying to get an answer to, you guys defending Zwarte Pieten take it and run with it as the "real" reason for my complaints. So let me try to steer you into the right direction once again. What does ANY of what you just said have to do with why Zwarte Pieten color can't change so that the Zwarte Piet Is Racisme movement within your country can be silenced? If nothing, then please go back to answering that question.
That doesn't mean it isn't an issue. We've covered the majority vs minority issue itsgreen. Movements towards change tend to always start with minority groups.
If it was only US citizens complaining about this I would have never even bothered coming into this thread. The problem is now you have people within your own country complaining, and yet their opinions don't matter either because their movement isn't big enough/they are all supposedly foreigners too/there are other black people who like it. And it is troubling that the only factor for you and others need to have your minds changed is for the movement to change Zwarte Pieten's looks to grow to a larger size, vs recognizing if there is an actual problem or not from the beginning (and considering that people were able to recognize that Zwarte Pieten's history was negative enough to need to be changed without a movement, this logic is even more questionable).
And the Flemish/Dutch societies, separately, do not consider modern Zwarte Pieten as problematic. We removed the problematic parts and are now left with a cherished tradition.
Wow.
This is still going.
I think it's pretty funny that removing christian symbols in the sinterklaas festivities seems to have more momentum then anything related to the zwarte pieten.
Isn't that saying enough though? That the highest priority and seemingly most offensive thing is the christian cross on sinterklaas his hat?
Atleast over here.
This is still going.
I think it's pretty funny that removing christian symbols in the sinterklaas festivities seems to have more momentum then anything related to the zwarte pieten.
Isn't that saying enough though? That the highest priority and seemingly most offensive thing is the christian cross on sinterklaas his hat?
Atleast over here.
Are you thick? It isn't an issue. There is a minority who want to fuck babies. There is a minority who want to ban woman rights. There is a minority who want to kill people. There is a minority who wants to do Sharia law. And there are minorities who are offended by foreigners, people being fat, people who smoke, people who curse etc etc. There is a minority for everything.
From you standpoint anyone of these nutjobs have a point. And they are valid because people inside your and my country think it.
Everybody is recognizing there is a troublesome past. That doesn't mean its problem now. It isn't an issue because it isn't. It isn't racist because people don't perceive it as racist. Sender and receiver. That is how it works.
freenudemacusers
Member
Racist
Not racist
Not racist
Racist
Not racist
Cultural context. Look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
In Germany and basically everywhere an icon for hate and mass murder vs. a symbol for peace and what not in India.
Meaning can differ between cultures. And meaning can change over time.
freenudemacusers
Member
I did and my lips turned red. I'm afraid if I look up "kids are having fun" I might sprout an afro.
lol is this the path you want to travel down? It will not look good.itsgreen said:
Too difficult for you so you make easy puns to divert attention?
dragonelite
Member
Sees swastikas being posted.
Grabs bag of kruidnoten...
Grabs bag of kruidnoten...
Yeah it's a stupid thing to do I know, but it is a prime example of Icons having different meaning over time and between cultures.
Always-honest
Banned
What if a minority of people is offended?
If a minority within a minority is offended, and everybody else thinks they are wrong? Tough luck imo, that's how it has always been.
Maybe we should create the most generic world humanly possible so nobody can ever be offended.
Yeah I am offended by that.
The minority-of-the-minority in this case is so small there is not even any political traction. And there are plenty of politicians in both countries who care about minority representations.
freenudemacusers
Member
no it's stupid for a variety of reasons. Stroll around Germany with a swastika on.
What holiday generosity.
I'm pretty sure jainists and hindus are allowed to use the swastika in Germany. Because German society recognises it has nothing to do with the Nazi-regime.
Stroll around the US dressed as zwarte piet.
I rather not since its illegal and you go to jail because from their cultural pov, and mine, it is fucking atrocious.
So you guys cater to a minorities of minorities? No you don't.
freenudemacusers
Member
Hmm, it's almost like our cultures share a poor history of racial intolerance!
Always-honest
Banned
Just to be sure: i'm against the easily offended.
But i would have no problem with the tiny change i suggested. Because it wouldn't change anything about sinterklaas and it Would send out a nice signal about stereotypes and basicly racism
The difference is that a swastika started as a peaceful symbol and was screwed about with and now the meaning is generally awful.
Zwarte Piet started out racist and some people think that by paying lip service to the racist origins, it's not racist anymore.
So why are you semi-supporting a change if even the people who are suppose to be offended aren't for the overwhelming part? Sure it could gain traction in the coming years, but for now it just means that it looks like that minority who are against Zwarte Piet is the easily offended.
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