Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"

Eidan said:
I don't see how having the game explain how the game works, instead of having Dark Souls Wiki explain how the game works, is "dumbing down" the experience. Why do you enjoy finding things out online more? How does that improve the game?
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Do you really think the wiki is required to play the game? How do you think the wiki was filled up? No one hacked the game day 1 to fill up data. People played. You leveled up, put up your dex and noticed your some weapons got stronger, but not others. You make out the pattern that weapons that have a letter grade in dex get stronger with dex. You then notice that the better the grade, the stronger the weapon got for that one point. What do you need fed to you?
 
Sounds really promising. I've always felt that, with the addition of a little bit of accessibility, the Souls series had the foundation to compete with better WRPGs such as Skyrim.
 
Eidan said:
I don't see how having the game explain how the game works, instead of having Dark Souls Wiki explain how the game works, is "dumbing down" the experience. Why do you enjoy finding things out online more? How does that improve the game?
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There is a certain charm to things being slightly cryptic. That you actually have to figure out how everything works yourself. I will admit that it just ended up with me checking the wiki 9 times out of ten though.
 
Lumination said:
Well, that's the point. If you want to make the UI clearer (no more squiggles), I'm totally ok with that. Weapon crafting falls under this. Why do you need to know exactly what world tendency does? White = good, black = bad, with varying degrees in the middle. It's much more in the flavor of the game when a Black Phantom NPC appears/disappears because of the WT instead of having a description that said "Evil NPCs will appear at this level of BWT. This adds that air of mystery and the threat that maybe on this try, not everything will be like I expect, so I should still keep my guard up. Why does everything have to be spelled out for you?

You know why people talked about the pendant gift in Dark Souls so much? Because no one knew what it did! People liked that. Imagine if the description just said "This does nothing." Do you think any single person would have discussed that item then?
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Did I say everything needed to be spelled out for me? Jeez. Some "crypticness" is all right, but the Souls game overdo it.
 
Lumination said:
Do you really think the wiki is required to play the game? How do you think the wiki was filled up? No one hacked the game day 1 to fill up data. People played. You leveled up, put up your dex and noticed your some weapons got stronger, but not others. You make out the pattern that weapons that have a letter grade in dex get stronger with dex. You then notice that the better the grade, the stronger the weapon got for that one point. What do you need fed to you?
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Do you really think the vast majority of Souls players didn't rely on the wikis?
 
Lumination said:
You know why people talked about the pendant gift in Dark Souls so much? Because no one knew what it did! People liked that. Imagine if the description just said "This does nothing." Do you think any single person would have discussed that item then?
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"Trinket. No effect, but fond memories comfort travelers."
 
I don't understand why people just assume everyone looks up the wiki when playing Dark Souls. I don't touch that stuff until way after I beat the game.
 
I just hope it's still packed with secret and not so obvious stuff (Giving the lordvessel to Kaathe for a chance to join the Darkwraiths for example); some tutorial text explaining weapon upgrades or mechanics like humanity won't hurt anything.
 
pizzaroll said:
Better in which way?
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I mean strictly as a roleplaying game. Skyrim eschews cumbersome systems in favor of indulging the player. The Souls series' dark fantasy is just window dressing for dungeon crawl. Which is fine, it's just not as capable an actual roleplaying game.
 
It would be cool if when you start the game, there's a selection of items you can begin with (Like in the original Dark Souls) and one of them is a tutorial or a 'Navi' type utility that explains certain things to you.

There you go, a way for new players to learn the game. And if you either already know, or have the balls to go in without it, you're rewarded with an item that gives you an advantage.

edit: I bet a lot of people used wikis, but that was another cool part. The mystique of the game caused thousands of people to work and communicate together to find out everything about the game.
 
randomkid said:
Can't remember if the developers ever talked about it in interviews, but Persona 4 (and Persona 4 Golden on top of that) are pretty decent examples I think. Both are easier and more accessible than previous iterations, both met with more praise from reviewers and fans than previous iterations, both opened the franchise up to even wider audiences. The people who feel P4 is worse than P3 are a minority, and people who feel that Golden is worse than P4 are one talkative dude in the official thread, heh.
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Persona 4 wasn't really streamlined as a whole. Certain aspects took a step back (choice and consequence for one) but overall the game had a ton of additions. P3 by comparison seems like a much more accessible game.

Their comments are pretty vague... they could mean anything by making it easier to understand. As a PC gamer though I am really worried. The last time they made some bad sounding comments it ended up worse then anyone could have possibly imagined.
 
I honestly hope they do away with warping. I get the purpose behind it, but it does feel out of place. They could stand to fix the UI and make the opening tutorial less obtuse, but otherwise I hope that when they say "more direct" they simply mean that playing the game, that is, learning how to roll, how to parry and dodge, etc. becomes something readily apparent to the player. Still hope there's no hand-holding with regards to this and that enemies are as brutal and unforgiving as ever. The reason this game works is because everything is based around player responsibility, and if they take that away, well... it won't be Dark Souls anymore, just another soulless franchise (couldn't resist the pun).
 
I don't want a more straightforward souls game

Christ sake they aren't that hard to work out, they just require the player to think for themselves.
 
Zia said:
I mean strictly as a roleplaying game. Skyrim eschews cumbersome systems in favor of indulging the player. The Souls series' dark fantasy is just window dressing for dungeon crawl. Which is fine, it's just not as capable an actual roleplaying game.
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I never got the perception that Dark Souls was really trying to be one, though. It's an action game with stats and equipment. And the stats have little effect on anything.
 
Their descriptions of how they intend to mould Dark Souls II into a more approachable form seem reasonable. But Shibuya admits that their approach will be influenced by their individual characters. “I personally am the sort of person who likes to be more direct than subtle,” he tells us. “[Dark Souls II] will be more straightforward and more understandable.
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In a market that has been flooded by straightforward, accessible, casual, super-linear games with an abundance of ingame hints, tips and tricks, why would anyone still want games to be "straightforward"? Is it because the majority have gotten used to those types of games? If so, how? I wouldn't mind more types of games like Dark Souls, and I think it would be weird if the majority of gamers thought otherwise, simply because there are probably loads of other games they haven't played yet.

But, seriously, would even the casual gamer type that the developers/publishers are trying to reach take a look at the cover of *an example game*, read "Super-linear, Super-accessible, super-easy, super-generic!" and say "I NEED TO BUY THIS NOW!" ?
 
Eidan said:
I could back it up about as easily as you could refute it.
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I didn't try to, did I? But you don't think your claim that "the vast majority of people couldn't enjoy this game without the wiki" is a bit more outlandish than my claim of "people actually liked the game for what it is"? I mean, when the rave reviews for Demon's Souls came out, they were all on about how the player is given nothing to work with, not "Yo, this game sucks, but the wiki makes it awesome!"
 
Lumination said:
I didn't try to, did I? But you don't think your claim that "the vast majority of people couldnt enjoy this game without the wiki" is a bit more outlandish than my claim of "people actually liked the game for what it is"? I mean, when the rave reviews for Demon's Souls came out, they were all on about how the player is given nothing to work with, not "Yo, this game sucks, but the wiki makes it awesome!"
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That is pretty outlandish. I guess it's a good thing I never said that.
 
I don't think they will change the core formula too much because that's what makes this series so attractive to people. It probably means they will explain the game mechanics in a better way, make some things less frustrating overall based on the feedback they've received from people. We don't want anything about the Souls games to change, that's perfectly understandable, but this is not really a bad thing. For example, it took me a while to understand how to use magic in Dark Souls; definitely could use some improvements in those areas.
 
BigJiantRobut said:
The "straightforward and understandable" quote in terms of story is the only thing that has me raising an eyebrow so far. The lack of overt narrative in Dark Souls is partially what made it so awesome, and also why I prefer it to Demon's Souls (even though I love both of them). But everyone leaping to conclusions about GPS waypoints, fast travel, turret sequences, whatever - hold yer horses. Like I said earlier, maybe wait until we have actual information outside of a magazine blurb to flip the fuck out and dig a grave for the franchise
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That's it. I'm not worried about the difficulty, or any kind of westernization. They can make the gameplay more understandable without dumbing down the game. Applying the same word to the lore or the evocative-rather-than-overtly-explanatory narrative on the other hand... That would show a misunderstanding as to why people love the Souls games so much.
I can't wait to know more about the game though.
 
If the series ends up going out a certain way (easier, more understandable, less internally and thematically complex) then we can chalk up another casually of far too much success in the industry...

In the respect to the core fans it's almost NEVER a good thing for a series to see too much success, from Mario to CoD. Very niche sales is the best outcome, period.
 
Eidan said:
That is pretty outlandish. I guess it's a good thing I never said that.
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You implied it.
Eidan said:
I don't see how having the game explain how the game works, instead of having Dark Souls Wiki explain how the game works, is "dumbing down" the experience.
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How can people enjoy a game when they have no idea how it works and the game gives them no explanation to figure things out?

But if you want to argue semantics, then go ahead man.
 
I never looked up stuff on wikis until after beating the game in Demon/Dark Souls (except that ring for the boss in Dark Souls). I guess I am some sort of genius? The game even has an in-game guide for you - it is called notes people left on the ground.
 
Zia said:
I mean strictly as a roleplaying game. Skyrim eschews cumbersome systems in favor of indulging the player. The Souls series' dark fantasy is just window dressing for dungeon crawl. Which is fine, it's just not as capable an actual roleplaying game.
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Unless you've never played a pen and paper RPG before, I can't understand how you can say this. The game is not supposed to indulge the player, as any good DM knows. The game is supposed to challenge the player to explore the limits of the system. To make mistakes and be punished for it, to make correct choices and be rewarded for them, sometimes even to grind for that one piece of the puzzle (or tablet, as the Dark Souls case might be). Good RPGs are never about indulging the player, because the player will quickly become bored with their godhood.

MTMBStudios said:
I never looked up stuff on wikis until after beating the game in Demon/Dark Souls (except that ring for the boss in Dark Souls). I guess I am some sort of genius? The game even has an in-game guide for you - it is called notes people left on the ground.
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I played the game blind my first time through too! Great, isn't it? Man, I was so terrified of Blighttown the first time I went down there. I just could not find the bonfire for the life of me (literally!).
 
Lumination said:
You implied it.

How can people enjoy a game when they have no idea how it works and the game gives them no explanation to figure things out?

But if you want to argue semantics, then go ahead man.
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My statement is pretty clear. I don't see how a game explaining how its own systems work "dumbs down" the experience.

I didn't imply anything about whether it's possible for people to enjoy a game that doesn't explain many of its systems. It's pretty obvious that they can.
 
The fact that Miyazaki is stepping away from directing this is very telling, knowing his personal touch of respectability with design and direction. Don't sleep on that.
 
ArynCrinn said:
The fact that Miyazaki is stepping away from directing this is very telling, knowing his personal touch of respectability with design and direction. Don't sleep on that.
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What indication do we have that he's "stepping away"? You say this like him not directing the game means he turned his nose up at it.
 
BigJiantRobut said:
What indication do we have that he's "stepping away"? You say this like him not directing the game means he turned his nose up at it.
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He's not directing it, as in "stepping away" from directing it. Never said he turned his nose up at it, but it's clear that a change of direction yields different results, take a look at his interviews about the series vs. what this new director has already stated. It's a pretty wide gap in approach.

Liken it to Aonuma taking over for Miyamoto, with varying results. We may get Majora's Mask, we may also get Twilight Princess. We just don't know yet, but I prefer to be pessimistic. :\
 
My problem with accessibility isn't that the game would be dumbed down, but that it would lose its 'magic'. I trust FROM will be smart but it's a frightening thought.
 
Riposte said:
What exactly do people want to see changed (made more accessible)?
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Make the online items mandatory (like Demon's Souls), so you have more people co oping and leaving and rating messages. Better UI on the item stats and better translated functionality. Force the player to understand the effects of humanity and bonfires.
 
i don't want it more "accessible" per say, but not being fiendishly obscure sometimes could be a plus.

i loved demon souls but the annoying light and dark worlds by killing yourself a certain amount of times was pretty foolish tbh.

its akin to FFXII where you could only get that ultimate spear weapon by not opening certain chests in the game.

some things do go a little TOO far.
 
Eidan said:
My statement is pretty clear. I don't see how a game explaining how its own systems work "dumbs down" the experience.
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This kind of contradicts what I said earlier, but now that I think about it, this is a fair point. There is a middle ground between retaining a mysterious air and explaining how systems work. For example, with the covenants -- maybe have the NPC talk a little bit about their covenant, maybe not completely fleshing out what you get at every stage of the covenant or what all the little bonuses are, but at least so we have a general idea of what they do. It could even be a way to get into a little bit of vague lore, which would draw the player in even more. Instead, you have the
Stone Dragon and Nito
covenants where you get zero dialogue and "JOIN COVENANT? YES/NO".

I don't have to know that the covenants exist or where to find them, as they aren't integral to the game -- and knowing that there are covenants out there, but not where they are or how many there are is kind of cool -- but because "experimenting" with covenants comes with a cost that is burdensome as a player, I should at least have some semblance of an idea as to what I'm getting into when I do find them, and whether or not it is in my interest to join them. As BigJiantRobut said, I really don't think that knowing stuff like what a "raw" weapon is or isn't really adds to my experience with the game. Not knowing what kind of enemy lurks around the next corner, or whether or not there's a boss behind that wall of mist, or whether or not an NPC can be trusted -- those are the kinds of mysteries which make Dark Souls interesting.
 
'You've got a heart of gold Souls'; don't let em' take it from you' =(

I'll be waiting for the 20th to hear more of the situation, but it doesn't seem all that kind. The ambiance of the souls games were their greatest draw for me. 'May the god of light be with you!...oh, but I'm just gonna stay here while you deal with that dragon. Cheers!' Loved the characters and the little quips they had to offer.
 
params7 said:
Erik Kain's article about this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...accessibility/
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Agree with him on the key points.

I think Dark Souls actually was more straightforward than Demon’s Souls and lost nothing in the process. Abandoning the confounding World Tendency system was a good move because the system, while a good idea, never really worked and ultimately detracted from the game.

Would a little less wiki-crawling to learn important game mechanics, elaborate stats systems, etc. be such a bad thing? I can see how the next game could retain all its mystery and depth while still making the game more accessible in the beginning.
[...]
Honestly, I think Namco Bandai understands that the draw for this franchise is its difficulty and replay value, so I doubt they put any real pressure on From to make significant changes.
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Dark Souls was an improvement over Demon's Souls in many ways without losing that specific Souls "charm", I'm happy with the direction of the franchise.
 
NBtoaster said:
Make the online items mandatory (like Demon's Souls), so you have more people co oping and leaving and rating messages. Better UI on the item stats and better translated functionality. Force the player to understand the effects of humanity and bonfires.
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I know it's not exactly what you were talking about, but I wonder what making people susceptible to invasions at all times would do to the series (with sin, humanity, and other factors raising or lowering your chances).

I think that it would definitely make the online experience considerably better in terms of finding people to PvP against. The only problem that I can see is finding a replacement reward for killing your prey (it's always been some form of humanity).
 
Gross.

I never cared for either games, but it's sad to see them try and go this way with them. I think I might give Demon Souls another shot some time in the future.
 
Verelios said:
'You've got a heart of gold Souls'; don't let em' take it from you' =(

I'll be waiting for the 20th to hear more of the situation, but it doesn't seem all that kind. The ambiance of the souls games were their greatest draw for me. 'May the god of light be with you!...oh, but I'm just gonna stay here while you deal with that dragon. Cheers!' Loved the characters and the little quips they had to offer.
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I don't get how people are arriving to the conclusion that all the ambiance and mysticism will go away. It won't, if you just look at the first half of the trailer and all the different areas they show. It looks like there will be a lot of loneliness and ambiance in this game.

Now maybe there will be more cutscenes, instead of dialogues with NPC's where they explained events which the players just envisioned in their own head. Lets see how this turns out.
 
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