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[Can Crusher]

I don't recall saying it would be.

I know, sorry if it seemed directed at you.

Despite what people are saying, 3.5GB is PLENTY of RAM.

Never said it wasn't plenty of ram. PS3 has 512MB of much slower ram, the jump on that end is by all means great.

I was just doubting that flash would ever be used by devs to substitute the lack of extra ram.

 

[oversitting]

No no no... Can we stop with all this magic hardware that's better than...itself somehow, locked resolutions/frame rate and secret sauce stuff?

All I said is the hardware is able to do it. I never claimed it was better than itself.

Are you saying that the 7850 is not able to do half of what at 680 can do?

 

[ghst]

What if Durango was 1gb/frame?

i'm not sure what you're asking; if data complexity was mandated by microsoft to 1 GB/frame?

i'm getting a little in over my head if i start making calls about data complexity per frame, i think you'd be better off asking someone like durante.

a good question to ask is how much data is in a single demanding Far Cry 3 frame rendered with all settings at max in 1080p with 16x AF/8x MSAA?

 

[Can Crusher]

i'm not sure what you're asking; if data complexity was mandated by microsoft to 1 GB/frame?

It's info from 1 year ago.

 

[Raist]

I'm wondering, edRAM seems to be the thing to use now for consoles, yet after being the first ones to do so with the PS2, they seemingly completely abandonned it. Weird.

 

[StevieP]

All I said is the hardware is able to do it. I never claimed it was better than itself.

Are you saying that the 7850 is not able to do half of what at 680 can do?

99% with "optimization" to reach what an i7 PC with a GTX 680 (which is far more hardware grunt than these consoles will have) at 1080p no less ahhhh yes the magic. Can you please define "optimization" in your context?

And don't say it's because it's a closed platform so that gives you twice (or 4x in some cases here!) the processing power automagically.

 

[Spongebob]

Even though MS has set aside 3GB to OS funtions/Ads/Kinect/bloatware, we still don't know for sure which company will come out with a better OS.

 

[Can Crusher]

I'm wondering, edRAM seems to be the thing to use now for consoles, yet after being the first ones to do so with the PS2, they seemingly completely abandonned it. Weird.

Each choice in design is made by a team of engineers that are trying reach a specific goal. Every decision they made brings along trade offs. This works for MS, Nintendo, Sony etc

 

[R3TRO]

Even though MS has set aside 3GB to OS funtions/Ads/Kinect/bloatware, we still don't know for sure which company will come out with a better OS.

Sonys strong suit was never OS creation.

 

[tzare]

I'm no expert but we are talking about console OS here, not for pcs and a variety of hw configurations. They only need the os to allow gaming and accessing to controlled apps simultaneously, and considering how vita handles that with a fraction of the ram ps4 seems to have, i doubt sony will fail. Even smartphones do that today. How many apps will people be using simultaneously? Browser, netflix, youtube, twitter, screen capture, music app? I don't see what 360 does better than ps3 besides party chat( considered since day one unlike sony who had to catch up while reducing os footprint) in similar conditions. If ms were os wizards as some say , there would be huge differences.
Maybe Durango's ram is for using office while gaming who knows, but i'd say with smartphones just getting 1080p displays, and most apps will be the same with much more ram available... i see no problem at all , unless ms comes with something unexpected.
Maybe the flash hdd could be used to store the game when pausing, instead of main ram? Or still too slow?

 

[oversitting]

99% with "optimization" to reach what an i7 PC with a GTX 680 (which is far more hardware grunt than these consoles will have) at 1080p no less ahhhh yes the magic. Can you please define "optimization" in your context?

And don't say it's because it's a closed platform so that gives you twice (or 4x in some cases here!) the processing power automagically.

When you are doing a tech demo, you make it run and thats all. If you have some constraints you can work around it. The i7 is worthless and they could have ran the same thing on a celeron. CPUs aren't useful in rendering in detail, they are used to keep the gpu fed and for AI and some physics, since its a pre constructed scene, the AI and objects are predetermined thus CPU ussage is going to be low. ( they quoted as thus in the Agni's philosophy)

Maybe you should realize optimizations will come. When EPIC release the good samaritan tech demo, it ran on 3x GTX 580s. After 1 year of optimization, they ran it on 1 GTX 680. Thats about a 150% reduction in performance needed to run the same thing.

Have a good day.

 

[Karak]

Each choice in design is made by a team of engineers that are trying reach a specific goal. Every decision they made brings along trade offs. This works for MS, Nintendo, Sony etc

Totally correct.

 

[RoboPlato]

99% with "optimization" to reach what an i7 PC with a GTX 680 (which is far more hardware grunt than these consoles will have) at 1080p no less ahhhh yes the magic. Can you please define "optimization" in your context?

And don't say it's because it's a closed platform so that gives you twice (or 4x in some cases here!) the processing power automagically.

I've seen several reports from some developers on B3D that think they could get about 40% of a shader efficiency boost out of the GPU if they have a proper RAM pool. That would put this GPU in a relative ballpark with the 680 in terms of effects but you'd probably need to cut high levels of MSAA and 60fps for a lot of games. Obviously those are big tradeoffs but 680esque effects results are possible on this hardware.

 

[StevieP]

When you are doing a tech demo, you make it run and thats all. If you have some constraints you can work around it. The i7 is worthless and they could have ran the same thing on a celeron. CPUs aren't useful in rendering in detail, they are used to keep the gpu fed and for AI and some physics, since its a pre constructed scene, the AI and objects are predetermined thus CPU ussage is going to be low. ( they quoted as thus in the Agni's philosophy)

Maybe you should realize optimizations will come. When EPIC release the good samaritan tech demo, it ran on 3x GTX 580s. After 1 year of optimization, they ran it on 1 GTX 680. Thats about a 150% reduction in performance needed to run the same thing.

Have a good day.

With a reduction in resolution (720p), a switch from MSAA to Vaseline post AA, and other similar IQ sacrifices. THAT is what optimization really amounts to when all is said and done, and what you're going to receive on the console front. Btw some of those things you say we're just tech demos were actually running games.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Would anyone like to see XMB return? I actually like it.

 

[i-Lo]

No. You can use a hard drive for caching data, so that it doesn't have to be loaded from the slower DVD/Blu-ray every time it's needed. Flash can be used in much the same way, it basically acts as a very fast hard drive, but it can't really replace RAM which is still much faster.

How fast would the transfer rate (for streaming cached data) be on 2.5" SATA HDD in comparison to flash memory?

 

[somuchwater]

I'm no expert but we are talking about console OS here, not for pcs and a variety of hw configurations. They only need the os to allow gaming and accessing to controlled apps simultaneously, and considering how vita handles that with a fraction of the ram ps4 seems to have, i doubt sony will fail. Even smartphones do that today. How many apps will people be using simultaneously? Browser, netflix, youtube, twitter, screen capture, music app? I don't see what 360 does better than ps3 besides party chat( considered since day one unlike sony who had to catch up while reducing os footprint) in similar conditions. If ms were os wizards as some say , there would be huge differences.
Maybe Durango's ram is for using office while gaming who knows, but i'd say with smartphones just getting 1080p displays, and most apps will be the same with much more ram available... i see no problem at all , unless ms comes with something unexpected.
Maybe the flash hdd could be used to store the game when pausing, instead of main ram? Or still too slow?

The thing is, if the 3GB for the OS rumour is true, then perhaps MS have something bigger planned than how we currently conceive of a gaming OS.

That could be pretty straightforward like video capture, or streaming - but it could be something that we haven't quite thought of yet.

 

[pharmboy044]

Even though MS has set aside 3GB to OS funtions/Ads/Kinect/bloatware, we still don't know for sure which company will come out with a better OS.

I wonder if both will go with what they have now so that they have consistent user experience. I really don't see Sony ditching the XMB.

 

[Uno Venova]

Would anyone like to see XMB return? I actually like it.

I want something where all the important things are right on the front page, a space for 3 downloadable titles to customize, friends, trophies, the game in the drive etc.

 

[ThisWreckage]

I'm not worried about Sony's OS. It will be more simplistic and it will ape what Microsoft did with the 360 did this generation. Microsoft, by my prediction, will likely have an everything-including-the-kitchen-sink mentality contrariwise.

 

[iceatcs]

The thing is, if the 3GB for the OS rumour is true, then perhaps MS have something bigger planned than how we currently conceive of a gaming OS.

That could be pretty straightforward like video capture, or streaming - but it could be something that we haven't quite thought of yet.

1GB - OS/Kinect 2.0 and 2GB for adverts


but yeah 3GB is very lot. If true, it must be more than just OS.

 

[Truespeed]

3.5GB is 3.5GB. Its enough for what 3.5 GB will get you.

Wait, are you suggesting Bill actually said that? Because he didn't.

Bill Gates: "I've said some stupid things and some wrong things, but not that. No one involved in computers would ever say that a certain amount of memory is enough for all time."

 

[GodofWine]

For the non-techies...hypothetically what could a ps3 with 8 times more ram do that it cannot do today...trying to get a grasp on what RAM is most useful for...

also...what would a ps3 do with this rumored GPU CPU combo with no additional ram (which may just be silly)???

i know its not that simple but just taking a stab at these might help educate us simpletons

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Totally correct.

You get any info from your contact?

 

[Mr.Green]

3.5GB is 3.5GB. Its enough for what 3.5 GB will get you.

This is a myth, btw. He never said that.

Edit: truespeed indeed.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Even though MS has set aside 3GB to OS funtions/Ads/Kinect/bloatware, we still don't know for sure which company will come out with a better OS.

sorry, I don't see anyone in the current console game with the internal talent to beat MS in OS development.

 

[Karak]

You get any info from your contact?

I did and I have spent the better half of a day trying to...write it out in a post coherently.

 

[Valnen]

Sonys strong suit was never OS creation.

I dunno, I liked XMB better than the 360's interfaces even if it was missing some cool features that the 360 OS had. It's cleaner and you can customize the look of it more.

 

[Iacobellis]

I dunno, I liked XMB better than the 360's interfaces even if it was missing some cool features that the 360 OS had. It's cleaner and you can customize the look of it more.

Did you ever use the Blades dashboard?

 

[ThisWreckage]

sorry, I don't see anyone in the current console game with the internal talent to beat MS in OS development.

Sony doesn't need to and no one expects them to. Like I said, they'll improve PSN by aping what Microsoft did with the 360. Download speeds will be faster, you won't have to manually install games after they've downloaded, it'll have cross game/party chat, etc. They'll couple that with what they did with the Vita and it will be fine. Sony will be more concerned with pushing software. Playstation Plue will be vital for their success. If (BIG IF) PSN continues to be free they want have to exceed Microsoft's OS whatsoever.

 

[mkenyon]

Orbis is 8 core CPU? The thread with the leaks said it was 4. Which is it?

AMD processors are kind of odd. Each pair of cores essentially acts as a single core. For all intents, it is more akin to a 4 core CPU.

 

[Can Crusher]

Totally correct.

Don't you "totally correct" me. What did he tell you?!

 

[Rösti]

I did and I have spent the better half of a day trying to...write it out in a post coherently.

This can be interpreted as the information being of massive size or of a complex nature. Regardless, I'll wait with excitement for what you have to share.

 

[Infinite Justice]

I did and I have spent the better half of a day trying to...write it out in a post coherently.

is the OS number true?

 

[Valnen]

Did you ever use the Blades dashboard?

I did.

 

[oversitting]

This is a myth, btw. He never said that.

Edit: truespeed indeed.

Wait, are you suggesting Bill actually said that? Because he didn't.

It does not matter that he did or did not say it, it only matters that our perception of what is enough changes greatly with time. If that were not the case, that rumor would not be so wide spread.

 

[rdrr gnr]

I did and I have spent the better half of a day trying to...write it out in a post coherently.

Don't hurt me.

 

[oversitting]

With a reduction in resolution (720p), a switch from MSAA to Vaseline post AA, and other similar IQ sacrifices. THAT is what optimization really amounts to when all is said and done, and what you're going to receive on the console front. Btw some of those things you say we're just tech demos were actually running games.

It was not reduced to 720p as far as I know. The switch in AA is one of the many optimizations. Like I said 99% image quality with less hardware.

The regards to the CPU being many times more powerful: When running a game however the developer can gauge what he needs for his game, the visual quality of his game would not really be dictated by the CPU. The GPU should be able to output graphics on the same levels as those tech demos as long as time and optimizations is put in.

 

[Mr.Green]

It does not matter that he did or did not say it, it only matters that our perception of what is enough changes greatly with time. If that were not the case, that rumor would not be so wide spread.

So facts don't matter, only perception eh? How about "my bad I didn't know it was a myth"?

 

[FunkyMunkey]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

 

[i-Lo]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

How much would you think be enough, oh mighty funkymunkey?

 

[Mr.Green]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

When you don't have Windows eating 2 then yeah, it not bad. Don't forget that current gen systems are doing a pretty good job with 512Mb...

 

[oversitting]

So facts don't matter, only perception eh? How about "my bad I didn't know it was a myth"?

Perception is all you know. In reality nothing can be regarded as pure fact. What is knowledge? What is reality?

Anyways, my point wasn't that bill gate said that. My point was that people thought at a time where 640k was nearly unlimited enough that they would put the same words into the mouth of one of the most popular figures of computing.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I would like to know how many MBs say Uncharted 3 and Halo 4 use per frame so I have reference to go by.

This MB/GB per frame is a new metric for me.

 

[Zen]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

3.5 DDR5 without the usual background ram/CPU drains that you get on a computer? It's probably plenty. It will perform really well against 5-6 gigs of DDR3.

Even though MS has set aside 3GB to OS funtions/Ads/Kinect/bloatware, we still don't know for sure which company will come out with a better OS.

I'm imagining that they'll both have rock solid OS, but Sony's will be more targeted, basically everything you see currently on the PSM XMB but able to be done during gamplay and then some (live P2P video chat even). Microsoft will be going crazy with being able to support a million things at once asnd gaming will be like an application within the OS environment. Don't forget that 512 megs is still the entirety of the ram in the PS3.

 

[Mr.Green]

Perception is all you know. In reality nothing can be regarded as pure fact. What is knowledge? What is reality?

Are you high?

Anyways, my point wasn't that bill gate said that. My point was that people thought at a time where 640k was nearly unlimited enough that they would put the same words into the mouth of one of the most popular figures of computing.

Yeah I got what you were trying to say anyway, don't worry.

 

[RoboPlato]

I did and I have spent the better half of a day trying to...write it out in a post coherently.

Cool. What thread should we expect it in?

 

[FunkyMunkey]

How much would you think be enough, oh mighty funkymunkey?

I read the OP earlier and thought it was DDR5(PC equivalent), but I might have misread. If so though, 3.5GB is not "plenty" of RAM. Whether it effects PS4 or not, we'll have to wait and see(hopefully not). I'm hoping the allocation for the OS at .5 GB is enough as a sluggish OS would be frustrating. And we really better see some smooth and quick party chat features.

EDIT: And I switch around ddr3 and ddr5 once again. Nevermind *bows head*

3.5 DDR5 without the usual background ram/CPU drains that you get on a computer? It's probably plenty. It will perform really well against 5-6 gigs of DDR3.

As long as it's optimized, it probably will. I'm just thinking 3.5GB ddr5 in the grand scheme of things as "that's it?", but scaled to a console, you guys are probably right. So long as games use up every ounce of RAM possible, I'm good.

 

[phosphor112]

Has anyone figured out what the 4GB of flash in the Vita is used for?

I ask because the PS4 is rumored to have 16GB of flash memory, just like the 4GB in the PS Vita, it's said to be for the OS as FW updates but I doubt if the OS will be big enough to need 16GB of flash.

You know why it's there. (I'm sure you do.) You just want to get people to think for a moment. Yeah, I feel like that 16gig is almost guaranteed in there. Keeping multiple programs "open" and using it for data caching from the hard drive and optical drive. Not as fast as DDR3 but good enough when you have 3.5gigs of GDDR5 to pull the data.

 

[RoboPlato]

I read the OP earlier and thought it was DDR5(PC equivalent), but I might have misread. If so though, 3.5GB is not "plenty" of RAM. Whether it effects PS4 or not, we'll have to wait and see(hopefully not). I'm hoping the allocation for the OS at .5 GB is enough as a sluggish OS would be frustrating. And we really better see some smooth and quick party chat features.

Why are party chat and cross game chat seen as such important features? I especially don't see much use for cross game chat. It's rare that I'd be able to focus on a conversation and play an entirely different game than the other person I'm talking to.