Well, that's largely because I wasn't in a position to know the reasons; all I was aware of was that that was the case. It's never made much sense to me, particularly given that with Simpsons we did fine with the same premise.
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Iwata implies he may resign over poor business performance
- Thread starter Cheesemeister
- Start date
Well, that's largely because I wasn't in a position to know the reasons; all I was aware of was that that was the case. It's never made much sense to me, particularly given that with Simpsons we did fine with the same premise.
I wonder if iwata is held back by cyborg yamuachi and other people on the board. Nintendo needs to do some major restructuring and honoring out dated business practices is hurting them bad. iwata doesn't come off as dumb so something must be restricting his potential.
Hopefully iwata grows the balls to change things up. Maybe in the process they can make Reggie useful again. Right now you could replace him with a traffic cone and no one would notice.
Hopefully iwata grows the balls to change things up. Maybe in the process they can make Reggie useful again. Right now you could replace him with a traffic cone and no one would notice.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
I'm surprised at that. It's good though cos 3D Land is great.
Steve Youngblood
Member
It's worth noting that 3D Land has been out longer. I wouldn't be shocked if NSMB2 sold better in the long run, but would be delighted to be wrong.
Yea, but NSMB2 will eventually outsell it, but I still believe that 3D Mario games are system sellers to the core gamer.
Replacing him with a traffic cone is a fucking brilliant idea!
Spieler Eins
Member
Shiiit, all these Wii games and the fucking first NSMB still sold over a mil last year?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Iwata / Nintendo seemed like some of the first to voice concerns over the future cost of game development, 7 years before a bloodbath generation has taken its toll on so many developers and publishers.
Many will claim that Iwata knows nothing, and the Wii was "merely an accident" because the Wii as gimmick narrative is very strong and popular. The DS must have been an accident as well. Does anybody remember when the DS launched? How almost everyone in enthusiast gamer-land was laughing at Nintendo's pathetic toy brick, and waiting for the super sexy PSP to dominate the market and change the face of portable gaming forever?
I would venture that Iwata and other theorists at Nintendo were pretty much correct that there was a large expanded audience waiting for gaming products that was not being served. The fact that a direct follow up to the Wii might not, or could not, have the precise same impact as the Wii means little. It's convenient for people to pretend that it means the Wii was a fad - by that logic, the SNES was a fad too, since the N64 didn't have the same impact and didn't sell nearly as much.
Nintendo's misfortune, perhaps an inevitable one, is that the expanded market they (partly) discovered became well served by the quickly converging market of smartphones, then tablet devices. They've expressed concern as well over the particulars of that market eroding value in game software, which is a real concern; sure, voicing such views is partly protecting their own mindshare in the portable world. But it's still a good point.
My problem is that I have yet to see any great suggestion on what Nintendo can do to fix everything from the peanut gallery. Gamecube II? Great for a small hardcore nugget of fans, but seems unlikely to do the kind of good people imagine it would. Otherwise, it's the same old "go 3rd party and stop pushing your hardware gimmicks on us". Again, great for a particular audience that wants a few specific versions of Nintendo games which are essentially SNES/N64 titles, without having to buy Nintendo systems. But very possibly not so great for Nintendo.
The original DS family is still selling, and everyone who gets one wants a Mario game. NSMB DS will keep selling until the day the last DS is taken off retail shelves.
TheUnknownForce
Member
As said above, NSMB2 did not outsell SM3DL, but it probably will in the longrun. While NSMB games have long legs, 3D Mario games sell systems to the older Mario fans and will help spread word of mouth and the like for the system, which Nintendo desperately needs in time for the other system launches. The Wii had the benefit of a new LoZ game to catch its more "hardcore" fanbase, whereas the Wii U had NSMBU which does not cater to them nearly as well.
It's a bit like the 3D in the 3DS. It's an expensive addition that neither developers nor consumers were asking for. And just like the 3DS it's a gimmick that they've yet to justify via their own software. I just don't see how they could believe the Gamepad to be the next logical step from the Wii remote either. The Wii remote simplified the control interface and got people up off the couch. The Gamepad complicates things and gets people to sit back down again. How is that worthy of the Wii branding?
The huge difference between Nintendo and Disney besides that is that if I want to watch their latest movie I don't have to pay another fee to go to a special Disney-only cinema with worse picture quality than the one I usually go to see everything else. And if my daughter wants to see Peter Pan at home I don't have to buy another piece of hardware just to play back Disney movies.
I think adults would be far more open to Nintendo games if they didn't have to buy additional hardware just to get in the door. $350 just to be able to play the latest Mario and Zelda would buy a lot of Xbox 360 games.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Probably, I'm just surprised it's sold that many in the first place. I'd enjoy a sequel because I think the game was really good.
TheUnknownForce
Member
I'm more surprised it is still keeping pace with MK7, which is either good for SM3DL or bad for MK7.
Any big change that Iwata makes now won't have an effect for a few years unless it's related to marketing. We're seeing some of those big changes right now, but I doubt that they will have an effect soon enough to affect things a year from now.
Personally I think it's more of a problem that Nintendo has had these old hands at the helm for years and it hasn't looked like they've been all that serious about grooming a new generation of leadership.
Spieler Eins
Member
After 3D Mario on Wii U is out, I wouldn't mind if EAD Tokyo does other stuff like Jungle Beat again. 3D Land was great and all, but we really don't need even more Mario than what we get currently. It should get DLC, if that's still possible...
Alienating 3rd party developers and your core audience is certainly a sign of not getting the industry if anything.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I won't pretend to be the ideas man that would have saved Nintendo, and even with the gift of hindsight, it's still not easy to ascertain what they should have done. But if I was given a time machine that could go back three years and tasked with reinventing what would become the Wii U, I would do one or more of the following.
1.) The arms race is a loser for Nintendo, but we need our new console to be better than what's out there. We're getting a year (or longer) head start, that's one year for us to attract customers via the classical mechanism of prettier graphics, even if we ultimately are going to get blown out of the water. Still, let's enjoy that advantage for a little while.
Third party ports should be clearly better than the PS3 and 360 equivalents, and it shouldn't require a lot of effort to make that happen. To do this, one thing we should do is not worry about power consumption or being whisper quiet. Further, if Wii backwards compatibility is holding us back, let's get rid of it. If we have to raise the price $50, make it so. Also, consider point 2.
2.) Get rid of the GamePad and explore another interface innovation. The possibilities are kind of neat, but we haven't formulated a clear vision for why customers need this device. It opens the door to several possible cool uses, but we've got nothing to showcase in 30 seconds just what makes this things so damn cool that you'll want to run to your local store and check it out. If some stakeholder is just married to this concept though and we're stuck with it, then we need to focus on point 3.
3.) NintendoLand is not Wii Sports. Even with Nintendo franchises tacked on to these minigames, this game just doesn't sell the concept of what the GamePad can do in the same capacity that Wii Sports sold the Wiimote. We need to go back to the drawing board on this one and really come up with the game that's going to make you fall in love with the GamePad so that it's clear that Microsoft and Sony are going to lagging behind us by not having their own touch screen controller.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Wii U needed a stronger gimmick. When you have nothing to offer over even current gen systems in terms of graphics, there needs to be a hook. A second screen in your hand is just basically duplicating the DS with a hint on iPad. There's no hook. Wii U should never have been approved because nothing about it is appealing enough to grab the people who made Wii a success. They would have been better off going even further down the motion controlled route if anything. This is why Iwata should step down if things don't pick up; he signed off on what I think and what the market seems to be saying is an unappealing concept.
Some massive sales for quite a few games there.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
Alienating 3rd party developers? Were you guys not around for the N64 and GCN? Third party support was much, much worse then and has gotten considerably better under Iwata (especially in Japan).
And please show me some evidence that Nintendo has alienated their core audience. I know there is a vocal group on GAF, but the majority of Nintendo's core series have seen growth in sales since Iwata was appointed president (the exception being the Zelda series).
I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
That would actually be a fantastic move. That would give Nintendo an incredibly strong advocate in the West amongst the development community, something they sorely lack. However, I also think that in order for Cliff to be effective Nintendo would have to give him far more autonomy than they would generally be comfortable with.
Jazz Jackrabbit for Smash 4
Both third parties and the core audience left Nintendo long before the Wii. Stop making shit up that never happened.
Hell, one of the first things Iwata announced as President was Final Fantasy coming back to Nintendo.
An interesting thing I noticed, on that note: Lots of games still selling... but Wii Sports isn't, in the region where it is actually a distinct product. Completely superseded by Resort?
To be fair: It offers a graphical effect which requires very little coding time and effort. That sort of thing is just what developers are asking for.
Indeed, off-TV play on the Wii U gamepad is similar in intent; minor 'bonus' selling point, very little dev expenditure required to get it working.
A big problem with the Wii Remote was that it required thought and specific design to take advantage of what it can bring to games. Both the 3DS and the Wii U offer unique selling points that require very little dev intervention.
Must have missed all these multi-million sellers form 3rd party on Wii, then.
Nintendo has had a problem with that for a long time. Under Iwata things went even worse. Multiple studios who used to be close partners bailed. Games were downported even to the PS2 but not on Wii. Key new IPs never showed up. Having a system much less powerful than the other 2 competitors didn't help, and now they launched a system which is already outdated. Most 3rd parties won't bother porting their games once again, especially since many have faced poor sales.
Iwata surely managed to put Nintendo at the top of console sales (the handheld market was never an issue for them). But he made the situation worse for third parties, repeated Nintendo's past mistakes on being very LTTP with some tech stuff (especially online functions), and hasn't pushed for a major improvement of their flagship titles. Wii's iterations of 3D mario, Zelda and SSB are rarely considered as the best ever.
So if you restrict "getting the industry" to "making a lot of money for a few years" then yeah, I guess he gets it.
Dark Ninja
Member
Wii drought, DS drought, 3DS drought, Wii U drought its time to pack it up Iwata. Honorable of him to resign though
The Nintendo 64 did have a ton more Western support from publishers. Exclusives on consoles at that! Lucas Arts, Midway, Acclaim, 3DO, Electronic Arts, Take Two, Crave, GT Interactive, Hasbro Interactive, Infogrames, Ocean, Southpeak Interactive, THQ, Titus, Ubi Soft.
The GameCube had more a decent amount of third party support from Japanese and Western publishers, but it was all mainly shovelware ports. The Wii had some "exclusives" from Japanese third party publishers, but they were almost all all inferior spinoffs of the main games on PS3/360 or just exclusive crap.
There are a lot of valid issues and complaints, and a lot of very well reasoned arguments for why Nintendo/Iwata have kind of lost the plot, but I really believe that things are relatively simple for the Wii U- it launched at a high price and it did not have a compelling piece of software. 2D Mario and NintendoLand did not do the trick.
In hindsight, Wii Sports+ a brand new Zelda game+ a $250 price point was perfect at capturing a big audience right away.
There were absolutely a lot of problems with marketing, 3rd party relationships, etc., but in the end the bottom line is games.
In hindsight, Wii Sports+ a brand new Zelda game+ a $250 price point was perfect at capturing a big audience right away.
There were absolutely a lot of problems with marketing, 3rd party relationships, etc., but in the end the bottom line is games.
diffusionx
Gold Member
You completely misunderstood what I said. I said that Nintendo has never had a huge base of support amongst 30 year olds. Not that 30 years today never liked Nintendo. As a ~30 year old, obviously Nintendo was huge amongst kids back in the day.
Steve Youngblood
Member
But how compelling are these selling points?
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Imagine if Skyward Sword had been moved to Wii U and wasn't based around MotionPlus but instead was a good game.
TheUnknownForce
Member
Late 2008-through-2009 is the point Nintendo lost the core I feel, and while I like many of the games they've released, I can point out where some threw their hands up and walked away.
Smash Brothers Brawl (March 2008) was seen slightly negatively for its "floatier" nature and crappy online element and odd single-player element. Heck, there is a whole community dedicated to "fixing" it.
Mario Kart Wii (April 2008) was disliked due to its wider roads, more casual nature, and borked battle modes.
Wii Fit (May 2008) - Casual Exercise game.
Wario Land: Shake It! (Sept 2008) - Slow and easy to beat (w/o the challenges of course), and it was released with almost no fanfare from Nintendo.
Disaster: Day of Crisis (Fall 08) - Barely advertised adventure that didn't make it stateside.
Wii Music (October 2008) - Casual Waggle Music Game with poor song selection and pushed a LOT by Nintendo at E3 and in advertisements.
Animal Crossing: City Folk (November 2008) - Ineffective sequel that was touted as a true "hardcore" game by Reggie and co. Wii Speak was pointless other than this game. Also heavily pushed at E3 and in ads.
New Play Control Series - Expensive GCN Ports (Tennis, Pikmin, and DK:JB)
Excitebots: Trick Racing (April 2009) - Sent. to. die. No hype.
Punch-Out!! (June 2009) - Rebirth of Punch-Out series, even though it didn't add *too* much to it. Ad campaign push for the series.
Notice the gap between major "core" releases. We're talking Smash Brothers or Mario Kart to Punch-Out. The other games could appeal to the core, but Nintendo did not market the smaller games nearly enough to be noticed. The rest of 2009 was not all pretty for the "core" either: A collection of Metroid Prime games, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit Plus, and New Super Mario Bros Wii (which people disliked as early as the unveiling). By then, people were really only holding onto Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Metroid: Other M to bring them magic (and Sin and Punishment 2 for some).
Nintendo seems to have moments in which they have nothing to give their major core audience. Even 3DS had that moment last holiday: Paper Mario: Sticker Star vs. Style Savvy, FreakyForms, Art Academy, and the "I'm not a gamer" ad campaign. It gets pretty tiring for some.
schelma said:
N64 had NEW 3D MARIO OMG
GCN had a unique Mario-world game, a NEW MIYAMOTO IP, and SMAAASH BROTHERS MELEEE
Wii had a completely unique gameplay design with Wii Sports (BUNDLED IN) and a new, highly-anticipated Zelda sequel!
Wii U had a Nintendo-based minigame collection that can't be easily described to casuals and a NSMBWii sequel.
You can reaaaly tell the difference between the launch lineups.
Yes, holiday 2008 when their big core offering was Animal Crossing was a low point.
metalslimer
Member
WM+ was the least of Skyward Sword's problems so no.
Because they don't have unlimited resources.
I keep seeing people crop up enjoying each, but they're not big selling points; I'm not claiming they are. My point is that they're something unique each platform can offer *without* requiring much extra workload on the devs, which wasn't the case for the Wii Remote. It is, in fact, a policy that removes a barrier.
Allan Holdsworth
Member
Keep in mind SM3DL had bundles in Japan and Europe (I think it's still available in EU). MK7 has bundles in Europe and US but they were released towards the end of 2012, so they had less time to sell.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I quite enjoy off-TV play myself given that I often have to have cartoons and whatnot up on the TV for my kid. In that regard, I happily concede that it's a neat innovation. Count me in with the group that likes having that option. However, it's not something I need. I probably would have bought a Wii U anyway down the road because I like Nintendo games, but I bit now because it just happened to be the first new console launch in six years, and unlike the last batch of consoles, I happened to have some cash burning a hole in my wallet this time around.
If the Wii U had launch last year, I wouldn't have been able to justify the cost at all. I would have been in the group waiting for the next batch of software and a price drop to come out before considering.
And yes, I know I went off on kind of a tangent here. Most of this post isn't really directly in response to you, and is just me meandering about with no particular goal in mind.
TheUnknownForce
Member
And I completely understand that. Still, going through a major holiday season with a blah Animal Crossing sequel and Wii Music was super painful.
They should have really expanded or made more western collaborations while they were going through this much growth. Now they are forced to reorganize and expand while hurting from sales. Double whammy makes for high costs.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Is there anyone else that this thread has not named as the pebble that is keeping Nintendo from rolling on?
I think it's been Iwata, Konno, Miyamoto, and Reggie.
I think Sakurai has been implied?
I think it's been Iwata, Konno, Miyamoto, and Reggie.
I think Sakurai has been implied?
Ghost_Protocol
Member
I honestly think they were insane for thinking they could sell the 3DS for $250 with no games.
TheUnknownForce
Member
No Sakurai yet, but now that you think of it...
"Smash Brothers is taking too long, and Kid Icarus didn't give us all the control schemes we wanted. Drop him like a rock Nintendo!"
That good?
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Actions speak louder than words
What did Konno do to anyone? Sakurai is almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Or at least wayyyy down the totem pole, despite if Nintendo fans happen to memorize his name over some other Nintendo producer.
What? Super Mario Galaxy is one of the greatest games ever created. I mean sure it's subjective, but its the number one game on metacritic. I mean what more validation does it need. I also love Twilight Princess and I think Smash Bros. Brawl would have been better if it didn't psychologically punish people with a clusterfuck of controllers awkwardly joining forces to make a 4 player match work.
Mr. Saturn
Member
I always thought Mario Galaxy was highly regarded as being the best 3d mario though, or least it was the general opinion towards it was almost universally positive.
The other two games I agree with though.
I reckon it's Bill Trinen. Actin' all high and mighty from his treehouse, secretly acting as the puppetmaster.
Are you serious, man? You can argue Zelda and Smash, but really..? The Galaxy games are effortlessly some of the best games Mario has ever been in. Period.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I recall a discussion earlier about how Sakurai should have delivered KI at launch and Nintendo gives him too much time and money for his games that take years.
Though that may have been another thread, it's hard to tell today.
/slap
What Galaxy did was new and really interesting but it didn't capture me as much as Sunshine and 64 did. I think I prefer less linear stuff and want to wander around bigger areas exploring.
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