Support NeoGAF

[Alfredo]

I agree that Persona 4 cops out on Kanji's sexuality, but it makes up for it because Kanji is awesome. While in the end, I think Kanji's not actually meant to be gay, I like to imagine him that way, or at least bisexual, because I think it makes for a more interesting character.

Of course, in post-Persona 4 content, like the anime, Golden, and Arena, they've started pushing Kanji's questionable sexuality as more of a joke than anything else. I think it's funny, but disappointing at the same time.

As for Naoto, I don't know. All the fanservice, especially in Golden, really bothered me, but, it's anime, so, whatever.

 

[Tan]

They're high school kids, of course they'll act that way.

 

[Berordn]

Oh okay, as if it's not normal for teenager's to spout homophobic words. Kids don't know better the game just portrays that.

I'd like to think that my social circle knew better than that in high school, but maybe that's just because I'm gay. Again, I'd have to read the article more thoroughly and play the game again to say anything since I'm really drawing a blank here.

I'm thinking it has more to do with cultural divide and localization than any anti-gay sentiment on the creators part.

 

[Mesoian]

I think Persona 4 is full of wasted opportunities, and that ultimately, its handling of Kanji and Naoto is more than just a disappointing failure to engage with queer characters and queer issues. By introducing the idea that Kanji is gay and that Naoto is transgender and then backing away from embracing those characterizations, Persona 4 represents a betrayal of its central theme about people learning to accept themselves and each other for who they are, and sends the message that such sexual orientations and gender identities are too scary to accept. I want to see more LGBT characters in games, but not like this. It's almost as if Persona 4 has some lingering issues dwelling in its own psyche that it hasn't quite come to terms with.

Yeah, she didn't finish the social links. Very probable she didn't finish the game either.

An article written with probably 1/5 the total information.

 

[meltingparappa]

One section in particular I found really bad.

Spoiler

During the camping trip, the game never let me stand up for Kanji and made me watch while Yosuke basically said that Kanji would try to rape us at night, and we couldn't trust him.

The only part of Persona 4 I found stomach-churning was

Spoiler

when in the game, you had the option of telling Yosuke to stuff it or to agree with him, and in the anime (which wasn't directly done by the game's director, obviously) they went with the 'agree' option for comedy's sake.

Just.... a bit of ugliness that blindsided me.

 

[VXLbeast]

Typed up a big response, realized I could sum it up a lot quicker: articles like this are doing nothing to help (and in my opinion everything to hurt) the causes they hope to forward.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

All of the shadow confrontations are, so maybe.

Not Chie's, she's different

And by different I mean better, haha!

 

[Nairume]

One would assume being over the top was sort of the point, no?

Yeah, Kanji's shadow being such a massive sterotype is obviously supposed to represent just how much he's been struggling with the idea and how he'd see himself.

 

[toastyToast]

I thought it was well done, then again it was more of a sexual identity crisis than Kanji struggling to accept his homosexuality. I can understand wanting to latch onto him as a gay representation in videogames but, he wasn't (strictly speaking). There are people like him in the world.

One would assume being over the top was sort of the point, no?

Exactly. Look at all the other Shadow selves

 

[GlassBox]

Japan is strange when it comes to same sex stuff. While they're not as seemingly homophobic as some cultures, they're also not very embracing. Japan seems to predominantly view homosexuality as an amusing "strange" thing and tolerate it in that context, but not more than that.

Of course the umbrella for strange/weird stuff in Japan is quite askew

 

[tokkun]

I don't remember coming across anything that would be considered anti-gay in the game. The worst thing I can remember is how they made his "gay side" incredibly stereotypical with that voice in the bath house, especially since his normal voice out in the world was nothing like that at all.

The shadows are all over-the-top caricatures. The represent the negative way the character sees that side of themself. Rise, for example, is worried about how superficial her identity as an idol is, so her shadow is a stripper. If Kanji had a well-adjusted view of what it meant to be gay, he wouldn't have a shadow and there would be nothing to 'accept', so portraying it with a negative stereotype is necessary.

 

[levitan]

Kanji is not gay. Play the game, play the social link. And you expect high school students to act like "hey dude, you look gay, but you are so cool man!" ? Teenagers are teenagers.

 

[Chake]

From my playthrough of the game, i got the idea that kanji thought that the stuff he is interested in were considered feminine, therefore thinking he is gay or something. Naoto on the other hand, made herself look like a boy so people would take her seriously. Dem Gamespot fishing for hits >.<

 

[DrNeroCF]

Wait, wasn't the entire reason Kanji became insecure was because he was attracted to Naoto before he knew it was actually a girl, while being already insecure because of, well, you know, all the stuff that the game addresses, heh.

Felt to me like more of an identity crisis than a PHEW I'M NOT REALLY GAY THAT SURE WAS A CLOSE ONE.

Especially since the fact that he was actually struggling with was a bit more complex than, oh right guess I'm gay.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Kanji and Naoto are constantly brought up but i always felt they are brought up by people that didnt fully get their stories or are just basing their opinions on cursorary glances. Naoto never had gender issues but acceptance issues. Kanji may be accused of being homophobic but never showed attraction to guys. His problem was more of gender role and overcompensation.

Now the two that are always overlooked by these opinion pieces that in my opinion werent fleshed out and had the actual homosexual setup improperly handled was Chie and Yukiko.

boom

 

[Squire]

Hmm. I think she has her points. A lot of the same thoughts occurred to me as well. I mentioned some in P4G's OT. I do wish she would've mentioned Yosuke's homophobia mostly being played for laughs. It's no excuse, but the game isn't malicious in it's intent. It's important to note that.

I'm curious what Shidoshi thinks.

 

[jooey]

show me a way to teach the japanese to be completely understanding and respectful of non-standard sexualities and I'll show you a time machine to the meiji restoration

edit: i may not have had the tightest grip on what my point was

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't think anyone can conclusively say Kanji is not gay.

But the growth of his character is that he is willing to accept himself whether he's gay or not and he has friends that feel the same.

Boiling Kanji's character to simply whether he's gay or not is missing the point, I feel.

 

[kittens]

This makes me want to play the game even more. I want to see how they discuss these issues first hand.

 

[Mesoian]

Kanji is not gay. Play the game, play the social link. And you expect high school students to act like "hey dude, you look gay, but you are so cool man!" ? Teenagers are teenagers.

Right, but that's not really the point. He struggles with it, and through "reflection", he ends up coming to terms with who he is and what he wants. The point is, everyone, eventually Yosuke as well, eventually says "it's okay if you're gay, we're still you're friends and we'll still support you." Even though he ends up not being gay, it doesn't change the fact that he made the decision within himself. There was no right or wrong answer, there was just his answer. And that's fine.

This makes me want to play the game even more. I want to see how they discuss these issues first hand.

You should. It's an excellent game.

I don't think anyone can conclusively say Kanji is not gay.

But the growth of his character is that he is willing to accept himself whether he's gay or not and he has friends that feel the same.

Boiling Kanji's character to simply whether he's gay or not is missing the point, I feel.

By the end of the game, he makes his decision.

Man, we need a spoiler warning in the title...

 

[DoctorPayne]

I don't totally agree with what she's saying, but I see where she's coming from - the game definitely walks a fine line. But it's just so difficult to pinpoint what the intent of some of the scenes are; when Yosuke makes fun of Kanji in the tent during the camping trip, is it the authors going "oh man these guys have to sleep next to a GAY guy how brutal looooolllllll," or is it just one of many instances where Yosuke is a total asshole? My suspicion is that it's the former, based on my (very lacking) understanding of Japanese culture, and the fact that you don't really find much subtlety in video game character interaction, but it's impossible to say with certainty.

The other issue here is the potential difference in intent between the original writers and the translation team. Maybe the scenes were originally written as a mockery of Kanji's homosexuality, but the writers at Atlus US and the American voice actors attempted to present it in a more modern, acceptable manner, as a story of him genuinely experiencing confusion? That's something I've always wondered, and I'd be really interested to hear from anybody that played it in Japanese and knows.

 

[Sophia]

But for a game that is all about people coming to terms with the aspects of themselves that they have long repressed, Persona 4's treatment of two of its main characters, Kanji and Naoto, leaves a great deal to be desired. Initially, Kanji appears gay and Naoto seems to be transgender. However, rather than embracing these traits as interesting facets of two members of the game's core group, Persona 4 ultimately rejects them.

Wow, it's like she didn't play this game at all.

Naoto's whole plotline had more to do with the nature of Japan's society and gender views than about her being "transgendered", which she is not. Heck, they even acknowledge it when you beat her shadow. It's not about her wanting to be a man, it's about her gender and profession mix not being accepted by Japanese society.

And this...

The discovery that Naoto is physically female immediately trumps all of the years he has spent living as a male.

... is just flat out wrong for so many reasons.

Maybe the author played Persona 4 Golden

Seems to be an obvious conclusion given all the screenshots in the game are from Golden.

 

[paully]

Maybe the author played Persona 4 Golden

Good point.

 

[hamchan]

"Persona 4 sends the message that homosexuality is shameful and should not be accepted."

This is like, the exact opposite message the game is trying to convey.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Well, that article was interesting. Not sure she played through all of the social links to the max but hey one womans opinion can be different to mine.

The comments on that Gamespot piece though are fucking awful, going from a discussion on gay themes to a justification of pedophilia.

"You clearly don't know. Being a child molester does not make you a pedophile, a lot of people rape children because they're easy targets, they're not necessarily attracted to them more than to adults. And being a pedophile does not make you a child molester."

DepressiveMan

Can we send round a barrel of napalm?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It's not that Naoto felt she was born the wrong gender, she felt wished she were male because society wouldn't look down on her.

 

[Denzel Washington]

Is she really questioning the sexuality of the game itself?
She caught feels hard

 

[Mesoian]

Kanji and Naoto are constantly brought up but i always felt they are brought up by people that didnt fully get their stories or are just basing their opinions on cursorary glances. Naoto never had gender issues but acceptance issues. Kanji may be accused of being homophobic but never showed attraction to guys. His problem was more of gender role and overcompensation.

Now the two that are always overlooked by these opinion pieces that in my opinion werent fleshed out and had the actual homosexual setup improperly handled was Chie and Yukiko.

Masterfully said.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Kanji wasn't gay. He was confused because he couldn't understand why he was attracted to someone who appeared to be another guy. That confusion plus being made fun of for liking "girly" things like sewing + not having a father around all came together in his mind and gave birth to that other self. It was a manifestation of all the things he was experiencing. In the end, he accepted the other self he had created (because it WAS a part of him - he created it), but it wasn't actually representative of his sexuality at all. He wasn't gay.

This shit happens in anime ALL the time, especially harem comedy stuff. Super androgynous character is introduced, main character starts freaking the fuck out because they're attracted to them, the the curtain is eventually pulled back, he breathes a sigh of relief, and proceeds to enjoy a sexless, kissless life with the rest of the harem. (note: the androgynous character is always a girl masquerading as a boy, and its ridiculously obvious to the audience, just not the character).

I don't know why this is a thing in Japan, it just is for some reason. Probably some kind of sick fetish trick like the "not really family members" stuff.

 

[Squire]

Maybe the author played Persona 4 Golden

She did, she's mentioned it on their podcast. FWIW, she seems to be just as fond of it as people typically are.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

I don't think P4 is pro-gay or anti-gay, it's just a game that tells a story. Now, it may not go far enough for the author of this article, but it certainly doesn't convey any anti-homosexual agenda.

 

[Sophia]

It's not that Naoto felt she was born the wrong gender, she felt wished she were male because society wouldn't look down on her.

Naoto's portrayal is actually quite the interesting approach, given it's a message about Japanese society and gender issues. They're way ahead in some, and yet way behind in many others. Workplaces being one of them in which they're behind.

 

[Laughing Banana]

What's offensive about Persona 4 Golden was not how they depict Kanji.

What's offensive about that game was how they thought giving out a goddamn cliched' bath-house scene is somehow a great reward for finishing the bonus dungeon. And this is after the OG game already has one to boot.

Trying too hard and miss it by a mile there, Atlus.

 

[computers putin']

Huh. Did she not finish Kanji's social link where he admits that the "gay" Shadow is an undeniable part of himself? She also assumes that the player is supposed to agree with Yosuke's homophobic views, which is odd since Yosuke is portrayed as a tactless insecure wiener.

Exactly, Both characters are exploring their sexuality and shame comes with part of the territory, because unfortunately being gay is still looked down upon in society at large; or in Naoto's case having gender issues. I applaud the game for even tackling these issues because it's still kind of a taboo to discuss kids struggling and coming to terms with their sexuality.

 

[Mesoian]

I don't think P4 is pro-gay or anti-gay, it's just a game that tells a story. Now, it may not go far enough for the author of this article, but it certainly doesn't convey any anti-homosexual agenda.

It's pro-acceptance, by nature. So much so that it can hardly be anti-anything except for anti-evil.

Or...anti-murder.

Maybe anti-telephone pole.

 

[Ponn]

Wow, it's like she didn't play this game at all.

Naoto's whole plotline had more to do with the nature of Japan's society and gender views than about her being "transgendered", which she is not. Heck, they even acknowledge it when you beat her shadow. It's not about her wanting to be a man, it's about her gender and profession mix not being accepted by Japanese society.

And this...

... is just flat out wrong for so many reasons.



Seems to be an obvious conclusion given all the screenshots in the game are from Golden.

Might as well argue that girl from the movie Just One of the Guys was really dealing with transgendered issues.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If Persona 4 expected me to agree with Yosuke about everything, I am not sure I liked Persona 4.

 

[zoku88]

Naoto's portrayal is actually quite the interesting approach, given it's a message about Japanese society and gender issues. They're way ahead in some, and yet way beyond in many others. Workplaces being one of them in which they're beyond.

I'm guessing instead of 'beyond', you meant 'behind'?

 

[Respawn]

Article in question: Denial of the Self: Queer Characters in Persona 4


Basically the article brings up both the Kanji and Naoto characters, and how the the author of the piece feels the game unfairly treats the LGBT community, stating things like: "Persona 4 sends the message that homosexuality is shameful and should not be accepted."


Since the comment section on Gamespot has gotten absolutely disgusting with overly defensive fans attacking the writer of the piece, Carolyn Petit. I thought it best not to actually try having a discussion over there, the topic is interesting to discuss nontheless.


So what doyou make of it GAF?

Seriously does everyone has to be gay? Maybe some folks do follow their religious preference that says it is shameful? You say its not and I say it is. Now lets get back to work.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Seriously does everyone has to be gay? Maybe some folks do follow their religious preference that says it is shameful? You say its not and I say it is. Now lets get back to work.

Whoa what

 

[Sophia]

I'm guessing instead of 'beyond', you meant 'behind'?

Yup, fixed. Sorry, I got confused typing that.

If Persona 4 expected me to agree with Yosuke about everything, I am not sure I liked Persona 4.

You're not suppose to agree with Yosuke, unlike what the author is implying. His story is about gradual acceptance of the town he lives in and the people he's around. I'm not sure how the author got the idea otherwise given it's very explicit.

 

[RicardoNeftali]

First off I just finished this game and LOVED it, legit felt sad it ended and started furiously googling Persona 5 and so on.

That said I wouldn't go as far as calling the game homophobic, but Kanji being more comfortable around men as the lesson, when his dungeon left no doubt he was sexually interested in them, as did approaching Naoto when he believed her to be a man as a romantic interest felt like a copout. And some of the gay jokes were insensitive. Overall though I really liked his character and I think the answers of his sexuality really WEREN'T answered. Nor did it seem like his friends were willing to accept him if he were gay, specifically Yosuke.

Naoto I don't feel was actually lesbian, nor did I see any real undertone that she was. I felt that was more of a gender discrimination topic and I applauded them for taking it on.

Again I loved the game and the writing for 95% of it. Honestly I understand her opinion and why with her background those things could remove substantial enjoyment.

 

[Mesoian]

Seriously does everyone has to be gay? Maybe some folks do follow their religious preference that says it is shameful? You say its not and I say it is. Now lets get back to work.

Hitting a little close to home here?

Not everyone is gay. In fact, by the end of Persona 4, no one is gay. But that doesn't mean people don't struggle with figuring out who they are.

 

[Tears For Fears]

Wasn't teddy and the mc kind of gay?( no offense meant) I haven't played the game in a while so i don't remember.

 

[chicagocubsfan]

Talk about overreaction. High school kids make jokes about gays all the time, doesn't make it right.

 

[Mesoian]

Wasn't teddy and the mc kind of gay?( no offense meant) I haven't played the game in a while so i don't remember.

...My MC banged both Chie and Yukiko. No, he was not gay. It would have been SUPER interesting if, if you finish Kanji's social link, if you could date him. But you can't.

Teddy is a shadow, he's not anything.

 

[injurai]

I don't think P4 is pro-gay or anti-gay, it's just a game that tells a story. Now, it may not go far enough for the author of this article, but it certainly doesn't convey any anti-homosexual agenda.

See the author just wants it to have a pro-homosexual agenda. It's not enough to be neutral or agnostic. From gathering other knowledge on the author from this thread it seems she would have a reason to push these kinds of stances.

 

[chicagocubsfan]

Wasn't teddy and the mc kind of gay?( no offense meant) I haven't played the game in a while so i don't remember.

lol my MC had a harem so I don't think he's gay.

 

[Berordn]

Wasn't teddy and the mc kind of gay?( no offense meant) I haven't played the game in a while so i don't remember.

Teddie was pretty much asexual and just took on a male persona and body because it was more convenient for him to interact with people that way.

MC is entirely ambiguous just by virtue of being a player insert.

 

[Trigger]

Persona 4 is anti-gay?

Someone needs to replay the game and pay attention next time.