What other video game company's performance would you suggest we look at to compare his work to? Because that's how you properly determine performance. I remember there were charts at one point that showed if you removed Nintendo from the equation that the entire industry was negative for years - and that was during Iwata's tenure.
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Iwata implies he may resign over poor business performance
- Thread starter Cheesemeister
- Start date
What other video game company's performance would you suggest we look at to compare his work to? Because that's how you properly determine performance. I remember there were charts at one point that showed if you removed Nintendo from the equation that the entire industry was negative for years - and that was during Iwata's tenure.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Give it a rest dude. How many times you will say the same thing?
Massively worse than having no 3rd party support and no 1st party support?
Iwata PROMISED us they had learned from the mistakes of the 3DS and go and make EVERY single mistake AGAIN.
If I had a game as good as Pilotwings 64, Mario 64 and Mario kart 64 at launch then I would be happy but they gave us halfassed rushjob glorified minigames and shovelware. That's shameful from Nintendo.
Hell, I'm asking for games comparable to their N64 output. If I were being unrealistic and overly demanding, then I'd be asking for SNES and GBA quality support!
Iwata PROMISED us they had learned from the mistakes of the 3DS and go and make EVERY single mistake AGAIN.
If I had a game as good as Pilotwings 64, Mario 64 and Mario kart 64 at launch then I would be happy but they gave us halfassed rushjob glorified minigames and shovelware. That's shameful from Nintendo.
Hell, I'm asking for games comparable to their N64 output. If I were being unrealistic and overly demanding, then I'd be asking for SNES and GBA quality support!
I think you're confusing "Nintendo" with "3rd parties."
The only major difference between what Nintendo "did" and what Nintendo is now doing is they converted their sports titles into Mario sports titles. Additionally, Nintendo only published 55 titles for the SNES versus 70 for the Wii.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_products_published_by_Nintendo
The topic is thousands of posts long, of course there will be overlap. We're having an organic discussion yo!
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Please only repeat your opinion if it is positive and praising Iwata. Thank you.
And I'll say this again, to you this time: Which game company should we compare Nintendo's performance to over the last few years? That is how you measure whether a CEO's performance has been good, bad, or merely adequate. Compared to his peers, how does he stand up? Not on the Brera Scale, but in reality - profit, marketshare, etc..
By that measure, I'd argue that Iwata has done a pretty damn good job. Are there certain aspects that he's failed at? Sure. But if the company has performed more greatly than its peers in the market, then these failings are not good reason to oust someone.
I'm not arguing that everyone should love Iwata. He has succeeded and failed in various ways simultaneously. BUT, if you're going to discuss a company's performance under a CEO, you have to do so compared to its peers in its market to get a benchmark for performance. It cannot be based on preferences, but on market performance. Which is why I'm asking for a peer to compare to where Iwata looks bad.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Going back to old battles, it was pretty ridiculous the 3DS launched without a second circle stick. Just asking developers even briefly, perhaps mainly western ones, what they'd want above all else after a generation of DS and PSP development, and a second stick would be top banana.
Then WiiU comes out and it turns out its a real pain in the ass to port even current gen content too, ensuring even thinner support than ever. The hardware should have been created so a plop and drop from PS3/X360 was as easy as goddam possible if they werent even vaguely targeting the next gen era.
These are decisions the CEO should be on top of and pushing his engineers and designers to achieve to broaden their marketbase and appease third parties theyve traditionally had nothing to appeal to.
Second to that, to be so behind the curve on HD development and staffing up for an all 3D generation across two platforms (DS was still that SNES level sprite era of game making many were comfortable with), getting into the online space in a serious way, or even ensuring they had damn good OS creators on board and Iwata just seems like he was sitting on his ass across the board while money to fund such initiatives was pouring in.
Then WiiU comes out and it turns out its a real pain in the ass to port even current gen content too, ensuring even thinner support than ever. The hardware should have been created so a plop and drop from PS3/X360 was as easy as goddam possible if they werent even vaguely targeting the next gen era.
These are decisions the CEO should be on top of and pushing his engineers and designers to achieve to broaden their marketbase and appease third parties theyve traditionally had nothing to appeal to.
Second to that, to be so behind the curve on HD development and staffing up for an all 3D generation across two platforms (DS was still that SNES level sprite era of game making many were comfortable with), getting into the online space in a serious way, or even ensuring they had damn good OS creators on board and Iwata just seems like he was sitting on his ass across the board while money to fund such initiatives was pouring in.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Only if you pretend Apple and phones/tablets aren't competition. Which seeing as Nintendo is emulating them with Wii U, is pretty disingenuous.
How, pray tell, is Nintendo emulating them?
Dave Meltzer
Banned
By releasing a controller for a console that's emulating a tablet?
Nintendo is emulating Apple and phones/tablets? Huh..?
Yeah, but there you're asking them to be something they're not. There's a difference. It's completely fair to say that Nintendo is competing with Apple; I don't have an issue with that. But you have to compare things that are similar, not completely different, for a benchmark. Apples-to-apples.
With the exception of Samsung, which I also don't feel is an apple-to-apple benchmark for Nintendo, no one is doing well against Apple. So it's not like Iwata is unique there.
Couldn't it also be argued that they are emulating themselves with the DS, but for home entertainment? 2 screens and all.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Its about getting ahead of the curve and doing things and proving why dedicated handhelds are better than phones for gameplay and gaming, or what your weird tablet gamepad half step brings to the table definitively. Failing to put in a second stick, failing to have an account system and Virtual Console across all their formats from the start, failing at really getting third parties on fucking board. These are all huge fucking failures that are holding them back in the west.
Japan, sure, thats a lock. Theres unwavering loyalty there and with a Mario, Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Pokemon fab four, it aint shifting. The west? Slipping further and further with each generation.
Yea thats laughable since Nintendo was the ones who started bringing the touch screen gaming or anything too to masses with the DS.
Before the DS there were no iPhones, iPods or iPads, the WiiU is an evolution of the DS not Apples stuff.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
You don't get to say "everyone is doing poorly so that excuses failure".
If Nintendo don't improve, he should go. He shouldn't be fired now. But if the situation is the same or worse in a year or two, you don't argue for keeping him because "well you know everyone's struggling".
The DS and Wii did remarkably well in the West. What the hell are you talking about? As for the 3DS and Wii U: Companies make mistakes. Period. That's not always because someone else is eating their lunch - sometimes they simply make a product that people do not want. It happens. This situation occurs for every single company on the planet, not just Nintendo.
I also notice that your issues seem to align with things their opponents have done. Opponents who have largely underperformed compared to them. So perhaps these things are what you want but not necessarily what everyone wants.
Also, it's a bit early to be completely discounting the 3DS and Wii U in the West or anywhere else.
From my entire post, that's all you took from it? The entire 'apples-to-apples' concept just got swept over, right? You know, the entire essence of how benchmarking is done? Okay. Fair enough. How about we just benchmark against any metric that suits us? That should make this conversation a lot more interesting and really get us somewhere.
What good would firing him actually do? People can fix things themselves. Firing them is just ridiculous. Nintendo is back to profit now, despite the industry collapsing and we're not privy to how Nintendo intend to fully turn things around. Plus, it's not entirely on him and ridiculous to just blame everything on him
Iwata is smart enough and humble enough to know when to leave. He's not like American CEOs who cling on for dear life.
The 3DS isn't even doing badly in the west, it's just not doing amazing. That will change with Pokémon this October
Its funny Nintendo is looked at as a failure when they are not doing those Wii and DS numbers, but yet when those systems launched nobody expected those numbers. 3DS is doing fine and lets wait a year before we judge the WiiU, and lets no judge them based on them not doing 3DS and Wii numbers, since nobody may ever do those numbers again.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
ExpertInJapaneseCulture.txt
Keep in mind that some people think disruptive innovation is something a company can just do without fail and one product after the next. Oh, blue oceans are so easy to create and capture - that's why everyone does it!
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
False equivalence. You dont want a second stick? You dont want more third party support? You don't want an account system that means you can play Mario roms across Wii, 3DS, WiiU with one purchase? These are all things you want, that Nintendo is failing to deliver. Just because their competitors have these things yet are also stalling doesnt make it okay for a CEO to say "good enough" and light up a cigar. Dude should be hungry to lock every possible avenue of success down.
Oh man, Apple might be a threat to their revenue overall in terms of consumer electronics but they don't play in the same business model/space and market segment whatsoever (at least not to this point).
Yep, exactly, and also: Nintendo isn't an american company. "Strategies" will not get pulled in a 2-4 year time frame and a CEO will not get fired, EVER.
I dare everybody supposedly knowing so much about Nintendo's mind set/intentions/startegies/business practice to read up on Game Over - Press Start To Continue. It's a little dated but you'll see a philosophy there still being upheld by today's executives imo.
It's, uhhm, sort of educational and a great read if you are into non-fiction
There is such a thing as a trade-off between benefits and costs in business. Yes, I would love every system to jerk me off each time I get a headshot in a game, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Why? ... Actually, I'm not sure why no one has thought of trying for that feature...
*ahem*
The further the distance from where you are to where you need to be to have something, the higher the costs; the less distance your competitors have to move to get there, the more easily they can defend that position. Nintendo has made strides in some areas, while still failing outright in others. If they could have everything, I'm sure they would, but they cannot without putting themselves at major risk. From their experience in the past, what they offer is good enough to make lots of money and do well in the market. So going all-in towards areas in which you have no real experience and would cost an extreme amount to implement?
Not likely to happen. Prepare yourself for more baby steps.
H_Prestige
Banned
You do know the Wii U is being sold at a hefty loss, right? I'm gonna laugh so hard once it's revealed that ps4 and nextbox actually have better margins than Wii U.
The factors that caused huge losses for MS and Sony this gen don't exist anymore, so Nintendo could have made a much stronger machine without killing themselves. And both companies are cognizant of keeping manufacturing costs under control now. Just look at the Vita.
To argue that Nintendo shouldn't have released a roughly ps4/xbox equivalent machine in 2012 is to argue that Nintendo consoles are better off without third party support. An argument which is promptly shot down by the n64 and GC.
Apple iDevices and Android phones currently occupy the "mobile gaming" space. What space does the 3DS occupy?
Yeah. I personally think Nintendo made a mistake with the Wii U. The 3DS interests me less than their prior handhelds, but the Wii U was just... I don't know. I'm not sure what the rationale was behind that.
Knux-Future
Banned
holy shit at some of the responses in this thread...from both "sides".
sweet jesus..
It's just videogames guys.
sweet jesus..
It's just videogames guys.
At least he backs up his arguments. I don't agree that a sudden shift to multiplatform is a road to guaranteed success, but personally I would definitely be interested in getting Nintendo games on the PS4.Pachter is right that it probably won't happen until they absolutely must do it to save their asses. The wave of negativity crashing against Nintendo is just crazy non-stop these days. As a former Nintendo fanboy from back in the day it's kinda sad to see, but the Wii U was just a stupid idea.
And BTW, he says Nintendo has 8-9 billion in cash. Didn't they used to have much more than that? Or am I mistaken?
They have around $11-$12 billion, from what I understand.
The middle step to convergence?! With an CE industry leading local HD streaming technology in place right now?!
The WiiU is being sold at a loss but without the power increase.
Yeah. They didn't need to release a system using the technology and could have just saved it for the convergence device, if it's not a great selling feature for the market.
A loss, yes. Not a hefty one, but one nonetheless and it will likely turn to profitability with it by the start of next year.
You say the factors that caused huge losses don't exist anymore? Come talk to me when they post their first year financials for the PS4 and Durango because those WILL be at a loss. Also, Vita IS being sold at a significant loss.
H_Prestige
Banned
Even the rationale behind the 3DS was dumb. It's not selling because of 3D. The price is now right and the games are reaching critical mass. Coupled with Japan being handheld land and it being the successor to the DS, and...well, that's why it's selling like crazy over there. It could have been the 2DS and it would have made little to no difference.
Nintendo thought glasses free 3D would be the next gimmick to earn them automatic and astronomical sales. But in retrospect it just turned out to be a waste of money and R&D. Just like the Wii U gamepad.
It requires more than one game purchase to turn profit. I consider that fairly significant, but whatever. Also keep in mind with the profitability estimates that Wii U will definitely have price cuts coming soon, and I imagine they will be pretty big. Nintendo won't be selling it for $300/350 much longer.
And Vita is not sold at a loss. It in fact was being sold at break even right from day one. If you have evidence suggesting otherwise, I'd like to see it. It's also worth noting that the entire time ps4 was in r&d Sony's gaming financials were actually improving. Compare that to the 1 billion+ they spent developing the CELL.
And again, compare the simple APU found in the ps4 and durango with the complex, power hungry motherboards found in the launch ps3/360. Making a HD system was a lot more expensive back then just because of where technology was.
Nintendo thought glasses free 3D would be the next gimmick to earn them automatic and astronomical sales. But in retrospect it just turned out to be a waste of money and R&D. Just like the Wii U gamepad.
It requires more than one game purchase to turn profit. I consider that fairly significant, but whatever. Also keep in mind with the profitability estimates that Wii U will definitely have price cuts coming soon, and I imagine they will be pretty big. Nintendo won't be selling it for $300/350 much longer.
And Vita is not sold at a loss. It in fact was being sold at break even right from day one. If you have evidence suggesting otherwise, I'd like to see it. It's also worth noting that the entire time ps4 was in r&d Sony's gaming financials were actually improving. Compare that to the 1 billion+ they spent developing the CELL.
And again, compare the simple APU found in the ps4 and durango with the complex, power hungry motherboards found in the launch ps3/360. Making a HD system was a lot more expensive back then just because of where technology was.
Hmm, maybe that is an actual strategy (read: 5-10 years) as a dedicated gaming company in place and not a next-gen feature fest, while still securing their software pipelines?
Their technology caters their long term interests...
Edit: hedging was a totally wrong word in that context, excuse my not being native
Exactly. Look at the PS Vita. It's completely dominating in the West and it's got all of those things. Having a second analog stick has definitely been a boon to sales in this market.
Iwata failed to adapt to how he market has changed.
WiiU is aimed at a market that no longer exists. The middle market.
Games are now either extremely cheap quick bite games or AAAA big budget blockbusters. Anything in between is a losing bet.
WiiU is too expansive to compete at the bottom and too weak to compete at the top.
Iwata failed in expanding the Market for Nintendo. They sold 100 million Wii but did they make 100 million future customers? They could get their to buy any games never mind another console!
WiiU is aimed at a market that no longer exists. The middle market.
Games are now either extremely cheap quick bite games or AAAA big budget blockbusters. Anything in between is a losing bet.
WiiU is too expansive to compete at the bottom and too weak to compete at the top.
Iwata failed in expanding the Market for Nintendo. They sold 100 million Wii but did they make 100 million future customers? They could get their to buy any games never mind another console!
Again: Their long-term interests should have included 3rd party ports.
No, never, because 3rd parties drive a volatile business model (compare VG crash of 80ies).
Edit: totally wrong comparison, I love making mistakes
What I wanted to point out is:
Why would you want to cater to 3rd parties if you don't know whether they can sustain their business and still exist tomorrow when on the other hand you bet the fortune of your company on the software being produced in-house?
Throwaway123456789
Member
InsaneZero
Member
Brera needs to learn how to distinguish his own perceptions with reality. I would think that losing all that money from that failed bet would've taught him anything, but guess not.
Cold.
Amazing how people are still denying 3DS's success even in spite of it being pretty darn succesful.
In Japan. They also lost some potential demographic there if Brain Age sales are anything to go by. That drives off a couple of million seller IPs they had last generation in the process (Brain Age, English Training, etc)
nopenopenope
Member
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I also find it amusing that Iwata is being called a bad CEO when he took a salary cut, as did other highers up, when things started going south, whereas other CEOs in the industry just decided to fire a significant portion of their staff.
Which is the good CEO and which is the bad CEO?
It is NOT doing badly outside of Japan. It's doing good, not amazing, but good. Seriously, why do people continue to believe it's failing?
Which is the good CEO and which is the bad CEO?
It is NOT doing badly outside of Japan. It's doing good, not amazing, but good. Seriously, why do people continue to believe it's failing?
InsaneZero
Member
To be fair, it's still not matching Nintendo's expectations.
Stuff like that is Nintendo's real problem, and what Iwata should be tackling rather than micromanaging hardware development. Nintendo has real issues like misplaced expectations and a toxic insular corporate culture that Iwata is held directly responsible for, and many of Nintendo's current failures stem from this.
Most of the people in this thread calling out for Iwata's head don't even understand why they want his head.
Knux-Future
Banned
I think the issue is that people expect them to keep doing Wii and DS numbers.
Nintendo included of course.
That will never happen again.
I wouldn't be surprised if the nextbox and ps4 don't do 360 and ps3 numbers either.
Nintendo included of course.
That will never happen again.
I wouldn't be surprised if the nextbox and ps4 don't do 360 and ps3 numbers either.
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