jacksepticeye
Member
Seems like a bit of a plot hole TBH. Maybe the Luteces already found comstock in the past/alternate time and kept an eye on him.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
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Seems like a bit of a plot hole TBH. Maybe the Luteces already found comstock in the past/alternate time and kept an eye on him.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
So if Booker becomes Comstock through baptism,
How is the concept of Columbia justified? All the racism, and general fuckery?
Or is the Booker as Comstock timeline the one where the motorized patriots are Lincoln instead of Washington? Can this part be explained?
Also, if the Lutece's are the same person, how did they join each other?
How is the concept of Columbia justified? All the racism, and general fuckery?
Or is the Booker as Comstock timeline the one where the motorized patriots are Lincoln instead of Washington? Can this part be explained?
Also, if the Lutece's are the same person, how did they join each other?
jacksepticeye
Member
Yeah that would explain it but how to know Which Booker to go back to? Random chance?
I think it's during or after. It's certainly not very long before because there's an anti Ryan sign in the lobby
Basically after being baptized he becomes a religious zealot and decides to split off a new country from America based in his newfound extremist religious ideas.
The one thing I keep losing focus of, is what the Luteces motives are during the events of Infinite. They're trying to right the wrong they helped instigate by discovering tears, and creating the reality Rosalind/Comstock are from, where Comstock reigns supreme with terror over Columbia. Right?
I'm so glad I looked at it again, too. Really quite chilling.
I'm so glad I looked at it again, too. Really quite chilling.
Why would it be the end of the franchise when Elizabeth directly says that there are infinite possibilities and they always start with a lighthouse and a man? If anything it solidifies a template for future Bioshock games. I want the next one to be set on Mars or something crazy like that.
There are Voxophones that describe the process found throughout the back half of the game. I think you get to see their first real crossover and meeting during the ending, where Robert jumps through with Zack/Anna to meet Rosalind, and there Anna's pinky finger is chopped off.
disappeared
Banned
Comstock is explicitly described as a simple farmer. Then an arch-angel appeared to him and he created Columbia.
It could be believed that Comstock, at one point, was indeed his own man. It is said nowhere that Booker had a background of being a farmer.
But of course, maybe Booker fabricated all of this in his mind while "creating" Columbia and the villain/Comstock.
This is the stuff that thesis papers are made of.
Did anyone think they were trying to make a point that choice in the game doens't really matter, you'll still reach the same conclusion?
heads or tails... doesn't matter
presenter or couple, they still see your hand.
you can kill slate... but if you don't comstock is going to do it anyway.
Bird or cage.. either way Liz is still kind of boned.
Baptise or don't get baptised... there's still a comstock and still a dewitt. IDK.
heads or tails... doesn't matter
presenter or couple, they still see your hand.
you can kill slate... but if you don't comstock is going to do it anyway.
Bird or cage.. either way Liz is still kind of boned.
Baptise or don't get baptised... there's still a comstock and still a dewitt. IDK.
jacksepticeye
Member
I don't like this idea TBH. I dont like how his character seems to magically change completely from hardened non religious war monger to religious extremist just cos he was baptised. But the voxophones hinted that there was more between
Angelus Errare
Banned
Not sure what you mean? Remember baptised Booker doesn't go by Booker, his name is Zachary H. Comstock. Booker DeWitt is the guy who refused to be baptised.
The Elite
BOSS
Absolutely. Not getting the vibes that this is the end of the series; quite the opposite. This is the springboard. So many doors just opened (to play off the game's ending a little). The model of an alternate history setting for any era in American History, where a city is manufactured to resist the current prevailing politics is still ripe for use. Imagine a version of Bioshock that jingoistically works with today's American politics, for example? And still builds in the alternate reality series staples like Plasmids? What a game that could be.
jacksepticeye
Member
I think it's deliberate too. Both for games in general and the games story.
No matter what you do the end will be the same. There is always a lighthouse and you were always gonna give up the child etc etc
They were definitely trying to make that point. Would You Kindly was all about that, too. It's a touch of fatal determinism (I hope I'm using that term correctly). Things are already decided, but not because of any sort of religious 'fate' - instead, by the reality that every possibility that can occur has occurred somewhere/sometime, is occurring somewhere/sometime, and will occur somewhere/sometime. It's all...happening at once. I think. According to Infinite's take on a multiverse theory.
Booker was a nasty enough dude to sell his daughter and take part in a battle in which hundreds of native women and children were killed. I don't recall him expounding on his view on non-whites, but I don't think it's a stretch to imagine they aren't favorable. Add religion and a post-Civil War world and I could see him turning into Comstock, at least from a moral standpoint.
disappeared
Banned
It's the antithesis on modern game design.
In a day and age where everything is about "you"
Infinite comes along as says, "no."
jacksepticeye
Member
What do you guys mean by the sea of doors? What's it refer to?
NVM I get it lol
NVM I get it lol
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
"There's always a man. There's always a lighthouse".
It's all just variations on the same story. All these different universes follow the same basic timeline, there's just minor variations, like one chromosome separating different Lucete's, "jack / booker" either going to a sky city, or an underwater city, to save someone.
"We come here .. We ALWAYS come here"
"No one tells me where to go"
"But you already have" (been told).
dat ending.
very thought provoking.
thank you based levine.
Think of it as a sea of doors which lead to possible variations of the same universe.
Basically. I got chewed out for talking about how the walking dead and mass effect have endings kind of like this by my friends who got super duper fucking mad about it lol. so it's surprising to see a game have that a vocal plot point.
I like it a lot
there's a black guy smoking a cigarette who tries to apologies to booker about it, booker's just like "if you got em, smoke em" I don't think he's super racist at the time of the game.
Angelus Errare
Banned
PTSD derived from war can change a person immensely mix that in with religion and I can see a person being born a new.
The motorized Lincolns are Vox's patriots, since Lincoln was the pivotal character in ending slavery.
Robert Lucete is from an alternate timeline, Rosalind simply opened a tear and brought him over, together they worked on tear discoveries and things. Then realized they need to correct their mistake and drag Booker from his timeline to Comstock's timeline.
MotionBlue
Member
Their existence was a cosmic fluke. Lutece was a genius that discovered the tears and invented the basis of Columbia. Comstock funded her/him, but was ignorant for the most part of what they did.
When he stole Anna, he had Lutece killed along with his wife so nobody would know the truth. He killed them in their lab, and in doing so spread their 'existence' across all known realities. There are two specific recordings when you explore their lab that explain it.
In this state, they saw that the events involved Elisabeth, Booker and Comstock resulted in an infinitely looping series of events. To rectify this, they pulled Booker into the 'Comstock' Universe, and (tried) to guide Booker. They don't have the abilities of Elisabeth, and appear to stick to an observational role by choice.
It alludes to what Liz talks about in the ending; all the doors opening, all the possibilities, all the parallel dimensions/realities. It's visually literalized by a sea filled with parallel lighthouses from multiple realities. A sea of doors.
It's also the ending/final chapter's name when you try to Load Chapter.
jacksepticeye
Member
Yeah I didn't know it was called that lol. I thought you were referring to an actual door
Also did you guys notice all the divergent paths you could take there? same outcome at every one of them
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Once again, I apologize, but
If killing Booker prevents both unfavorable timelines, how does that create the after credits scene where he opens the door to Anna's room and sees the crib?
Also, we clearly see alternate Bookers and Elizabeths near different light houses...if we are the protagonist being drowned at the end, from OUR timeline, how does that change anything? In fact, how would killing Booker change anything at all? I thought the point of the whole "multiverse" thing is that while in one universe he's dead, in another he is alive, no matter what. Elizabeth EVEN SAYS THAT.
I accidentally my whole brain guys. It seems like the best thing for them to do would have been to completely stop intervening in everything and go on with their lives.
If killing Booker prevents both unfavorable timelines, how does that create the after credits scene where he opens the door to Anna's room and sees the crib?
Also, we clearly see alternate Bookers and Elizabeths near different light houses...if we are the protagonist being drowned at the end, from OUR timeline, how does that change anything? In fact, how would killing Booker change anything at all? I thought the point of the whole "multiverse" thing is that while in one universe he's dead, in another he is alive, no matter what. Elizabeth EVEN SAYS THAT.
I accidentally my whole brain guys. It seems like the best thing for them to do would have been to completely stop intervening in everything and go on with their lives.
The Elite
BOSS
With all the illusion of choice, it is Booker's choice at the Baptism that has a massive effect on the rest of his life. He either remains Booker, has and eventually sells Anna, or he becomes Comstock and forms a mega-cult in the sky. All that hinges on one simple choice. Albeit a choice the gamer doesn't have any control over.
It's essentially a post credit mind fuck. We're never going to get a definitive answer.
Oh shit, missed this detail.
Oh.
OH. He had them killed AFTER he used them to get Anna. Of course. I didn't put that together earlier. Alright.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
See that's the beauty of it.
Infinite is the story of THAT booker and THAT liz.
We all know the Lucete's are the true powers-that-be behind the scenes, but the central focus of this story is YOUR booker.
MotionBlue
Member
Bookers baptism is the divergence point. Stop the divergence, and you retroactively stop the ... future events. Also creates the mother of all grandfather paradoxes, which might be what after credits scene might be about.
Time travel son.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Most of us believe that's merely fan service, since the game and story make much more sense if you omit that.
Because if Booker dies he never makes a decision on whether to be baptised or not and none of Bioshock Infinite happens. And thus Lucete pulling Booker through to Comstock's time never happens, and thus you never reach the point where you're at the towers since Anna is never born, hence her disappearing.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Yeah, I get the divergence. But wouldn't you have to kill THAT Booker at that exact point? Unless the Lutece's switched the Booker from that point in history and swapped him with the game's protagonist?
Yeah, that's the one thing that's fundamentally broken about the ending; with all multiverse theories I've ever encountered in sci-fi, the fundamental truth is always that all possibilities still occur. So yes, if Infinite follows similar rules, no matter what Liz and Booker do, a reality will exist, among an infinite number of realities, where Comstock still comes into existence. An infinite number of realities will, actually. Likewise for a Booker that didn't get baptized.
The emotional punch really comes from wiping out the Booker we know, and the Comstock we know, I guess. We definitely watched them disappear, and really, as players/viewers, those are the characters we invested in emotionally. So even if an infinite number of Bookers and Comstocks are still doing their thing in parallel universes, these ones that we know are now gone.
disappeared
Banned
But the real beauty comes from starting a new game, and realizing that everything plays out all over again. Listen to the Lutece's dialogue in the boat, and then look at all of the hints that Booker is simply repeating everything.
vitaminwateryum
corporate swill
...and then your head explodes.
The Elite
BOSS
Fuck! This game is so good!
jacksepticeye
Member
Throw in some lost and fringe and you're set
Totally. I can tell I'm going to adore this replay. I just played again up to the raffle; everything is so rich with extra meaning now. Love it. Soaking in every last detail this time, and hunting for all the voxophones, filmstrip things and gear/infusions I missed. Gonna dick around with all the vigors I never bothered using much, too.
That's one way to justify not including a New Game + mode.
jacksepticeye
Member
That's when I had an inkling to what the game was about, when I watched a video of the intro I uploaded to youtube and saw the Luteces.
Also Booker is barefoot at the start
MotionBlue
Member
Even when separated by timelines, all iterations of a person are linked. It's why people had nosebleeds, and why he couldn't remember certain events.
I'm assuming the moment in time Elisabeth created was intended to influence all Booker iterations, that is why so many of her own iterations appeared to comfort him.
Oh, that reminds me. Right before the raffle you get a telegram, did anyone figure out who SENDS that telegram with the warning? That was the only loose end I haven't been able to account for yet.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Well great, now I want to cry.
This ending is punching me right in the feels. So hard
disappeared
Banned
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
That and when you (booker) say you won't give up baby Anna during the ending, Liz says "we'll be here until you do".
It's really echoing Bioshock's "illusion of choice" scheme. AFAIK, none of the choices matter at all except for dialogue lines from Liz or other NPCs.
True, but technically, to sell Anna, Comstock must be present. If Comstock has no chance to enter existence from the baptism 'choice' disappearing from the universe, Booker has much less of an opportunity to sell Anna.
I think it could be a possibility for hope, or as someone mentioned earlier, an inception style "decipher it how you will".
This is another thing I'm not sure on. I can't be quite sure whether Booker himself is repeating things, or as if someone mentioned earlier, the Lutece's are merely seeing the events occur in different multiverses with different Comstock/Booker universes colliding. Their jokes to me don't seem to be based on a single Booker repeating things, but from their observations of other universe's Bookers attempting to accomplish the same rescue Liz task.
It's weird though, because while Booker always flips heads, he still has the 'choice' of picking out the bird or cage, killing Slate or not, etc. We don't see how these things change the scope of the story (if they do at all), but that still means that they're technically separate universes each time you make a decision.
It's from Lutece. Her/his name is on the card.
jacksepticeye
Member
What the shit is that? o.0
I agree. I don't think this is a single Booker repeating; there are many Bookers in many universes/timelines going through the same story and the Luteces see them all, so to them it's a repetition.
disappeared
Banned
the beginning of the end of the beginning.
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