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[FartOfWar]

I don't know why you're addressing some amorphous "they" instead of me, Shawn, but that's not true at all. I chose to write something critical that I thought people would understand right away. When people didn't get my point, I realized that I had handled it poorly, so I took this opportunity to correct that. I have no interest in throwing around random insults for no good reason.



Not only did I not write that, I wasn't even working at Kotaku when it was published.

Fair enough on the Code of Princess story. Can't be held accountable in that case. And your current position on it is admirable. I can buy that you made a mistake on the initial story, too. Consider the sequence of events in the eyes of your audience, though - that's where my take came from. It struck me in so far as it stopped at saying, 'here's a game with problematic imagery' but expressed as much in the form of a personal insult and then that was that.

I apologize for the amorphous they. I was punning on the fact that Kamitani had to become an amorphous they in order to call him a 14-year-old boy. (I.e. press often pretend not to know who makes games when it's convenient)

 

[Tummi Gummi]

When a million people disagree with you publicly you most certainly create an aura of censorship. George R. R. Martin has spoken about how the criticism he gets for his books: they're too violent, too grisly, too evil, can weigh heavily on him. It has made him doubt his own writing.

If one of the best authors today can feel the awful weight of public opinion then any artist can. It is a form of censorship if you can shame the artist into self-censoring themselves.

Yup. There's nothing wrong with 1 million, 2 million, 60 million people disliking something just because the artist feels cowed by that - people shouldn't be expected to curtail their criticism just because a psychologically healthy adult can't deal with it. However, going through the previous threads on these subjects and Jason Schreier's own words, it's explicitly clear that this is all about "calling out" (aka "publicly shaming") these "problematic" (aka "something I don't like") depictions of women, and other cute little euphemisms.

I must say, if you believe that I "blew it" by criticizing art design that helps perpetuate a toxic and disgusting part of gaming culture, then you are probably not the type of person I want on my side in the first place.

Why complain? Because it's embarrassing. Because I wouldn't want to be seen playing it in public. Because I love Japanese games and Japanese RPGs and I don't want them to perpetuate the ugly "boys' club" mentality that has pervaded gaming for almost three decades now.

"I don't want to censor anything! I just want to imply erotic art is responsible for misogyny! Also you're a bad person!"

Look, I'm not a censor. I'm not going to say that an artist shouldn't draw what he or she thinks is beautiful. But just as I champion an artist's right to respect themselves, I believe that it's essential for critics—and for regular people—to discuss that art. All art has its fans. And all art deserves exposure to critics. I'm not saying this particular piece of art should not exist, but I have no qualms about saying I think it can hurt this game and gaming as a whole. I think it repels more than it attracts. It doesn't challenge viewers in interesting ways. And I don't consider it beautiful.

Remember developers: If you want T&A in your game, don't forget to come up with an "artistic" excuse for it. Maybe pretend it's parody like in Bayonetta. Anything less is beating your wife problematic.

 

[Dyno]

There's a reason why a quick and dirty definition of a word isn't considered more than that.

Your rather insidious line of argument (there's elements of it I won't even justify by quoting) has more in common with censorship that Schreir's article.

And yet it is still a definition in the dictionary. Something your wordplay cannot discount.

As for the rest, you're big on inferences but light on salient points so with that we will remain in blank disagreement.

 

[Pie and Beans]

No. I was unclear. The character looks like a 14-year-old hetero boy's daydream. This is inherently problematic. That was the point, as I explained today.

How is it problematic? Is it because you perceive her as anorexic in other areas? That you're worried her breast size will encourage young female players to want tit jobs just to compete with this vision of obvious perfection?

Is sex problematic? Is the human instinct to reproduce tied to certain clear visual aids problematic? Are artwork styles problematic?

Nope. Its not problematic for anyone. Its not some straw that broke a camels back, its not some deep and disturbingly unacceptable look at one mans view of women. Its some big ol' tittays, and so its an easy "LOOK AT THIS OUTRAGE!!" marker for the infinite internet shock and dismay machine to bleat on about.

Might as well charge into the local art gallery/old boys club and graffiti any female nudes by this point really if this is "problematic".

 

[HyperBitHero]

Looks like I'll be buying Dragon's Crown now.

 

[antibolo]

I must say, if you believe that I "blew it" by criticizing art design that helps perpetuate a toxic and disgusting part of gaming culture, then you are probably not the type of person I want on my side in the first place.

The only toxic and disgusting part of gaming culture in all of this is your bullshit pseudo-journalism fabricated controversy.

 

[Suairyu]

And yet it is still a definition in the dictionary. Something your wordplay cannot discount.

THE dictionary?

Your particular use of words (and, for the record, my own were hardly what could be considered 'word play' - I employed no rhetorical conceits) suggests to me you place far too much authority in a particular dictionary.

Dictionary definitions (and you will find many, conflicting definitions for various words) are not arguments in and of themselves. They are written from subjective viewpoint, and require subjective interpretation on behalf of the reader. It isn't an argument to go "here, this particular dictionary defines it this way, so it is!"

I don't have to discount a damn thing about your abuse of a language tool.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

This way they get 2 clicks off a clickbait article instead of just one.

Jason, stick with larger articles and investigating. When you have to make a new article explaining yourself, maybe the original piece could be bigger than 1 paragraph.

 

[Dyno]

YIKES!

Okay this dogpile has one less dog. The other thread got locked and I don't see this one as any different at this point.

Jason: Keep writing man. You fight the good fight most of the time. Live and learn, tomorrow is another day.

 

[jschreier]

...how?

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today. I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

 

[Lime]

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today. I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

You're doing good work, Jason Schreier. Keep it up.

I don't even see how anyone can have a problem with the response article by Jason, as it's incredibly well-reasoned and humble - he even apologizes for the inflammatory "teenage" comment.

 

[Mully]

I've read the article twice and I don't see a problem with it. Game art design needs to grow up and stop catering to immature fantasies. While the designer may have chosen for the characters to look that way in jest, it does a disservice to a medium that's still trying to break from the long believed stigma that gamers are men who oversexualize women.

 

[ReeseHoward]

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today. I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

It's a sexualized character in a video game filled with exaggerated proportions. You could find the same thing in books, movies, music videos, comics, etc. It isn't inherently sexist or misogynist to have characters like this.

I'm not trying to say there isn't sexism in gaming, but singling Dragon's Crown out for it because one of the many female characters is "ultra-feminine" screams "misaligned priorities". You're arguing in defense of phantom women who haven't asked you to represent them, which a lot of white male social justice "allies" who are unfamiliar with legitimately offensive media tend to do.

 

[Suairyu]

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today. I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

These are all good points but that doesn't make anything being discussed "inherently problematic".

It's a sexualized character in a video game filled with exaggerated proportions. You could find the same thing in books, movies, music videos, comics, etc. It isn't inherently sexist or misogynist to have characters like this.

I'm not trying to say there isn't sexism in gaming, but singling Dragon's Crown out for it because one of the many female characters is "ultra-feminine" screams "misaligned priorities". You're arguing in defense of phantom women who haven't asked you to represent them, which a lot of white male social justice "allies" who are unfamiliar with legitimately offensive media tend to do.

To discuss a relevant example of a problem is not to single it out, unless you're asserting Dragon's Crown is the only piece of art he's ever criticised for being awful in this regard.

And you strawman of reducing feminist arguments to "defending women" is worse than what Dyno is doing. To use a feminist point of view is not to be "arguing in defense of phantom women" or any women, and I think any woman should be horrified to think you believe it to be so.

Though, if he were arguing in defense of these women, he wouldn't be representing them (or need their request to do so) either.

 

[Trickytoon]

But this is what it comes back to time and time again with game journalism. You're pulling this innocent face with regards to "random snark?", as if posting "HA HA YOU 14 YEAR OLD IDIOT" was like on the company professional to-do list and not just the same old lack of self control most of your peers display

I don't know what insults my intelligence more, the original snide comment or the disingenuous defence that always follows. The lack of professionalism on both the dev side and the press side of this industry is breathtaking sometimes.

 

[Jake Tower]

I have this Frazetta poster framed on my wall:

 

[Giolon]

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today. I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

Yes, you are. Or are you saying that when you say, "Game Developers Really Need To Stop Letting Teenage Boys Design Their Characters" and in your blog that you find such images pernicious, that you aren't saying that you think character designs like this shouldn't exist regardless of context?

I think I smell bullshit.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I could understand the sexism outrage if this was a sexualised character that ran around after the main male character and fed him potions, and spare change, and conducted housemaid work all while he killed all the dragons singlehandedly and she swooned, but nope, she's a sexualised female character taking down just as many other enemy sprites alongside the sexualised male Barbarian stereotype, the burly Amazonian, and the petite Elf.

If we're trying to make the argument that sexualised depictions of women keep girls out of the gaming industry, you have the Code of Princess stuff above and many other women that love drawing ridiculous curves on their own characters to contest with that white knighting.

Its outrage without a victim, controversy without a core issue. Perfect blog bollocks.

 

[APF]

Those character designs are pretty fucking embarrassing. Male fantasies of men are rightly treated on a different level than male fantasies of women, and that's exactly what a large part of the "let gaming grow up" sexism conversation is about.

Edit: Dyno, you've trolled me in poligaf. Does that mean you were trying to censor me?

 

[Dyno]

THE dictionary?

Your particular use of words (and, for the record, my own were hardly what could be considered 'word play' - I employed no rhetorical conceits) suggests to me you place far too much authority in a particular dictionary.

Dictionary definitions (and you will find many, conflicting definitions for various words) are not arguments in and of themselves. They are written from subjective viewpoint, and require subjective interpretation on behalf of the reader. It isn't an argument to go "here, this particular dictionary defines it this way, so it is!"

I don't have to discount a damn thing about your abuse of a language tool.

Whenever I try to leave....

First of all that was a real nice THE you created. I could even hear you say it. Did I mean the one and only, bolded AND capital 'the'? You know I didn't.

Attacking the source doesn't make for a very compelling argument. I began my post with one of the dictionary definitions but I didn't end there. I didn't rest on the definition, I used it to explain myself. Finally, abuse? Really? That's just hyperbolic.

Other then that, have a good one.

 

[Devolution]

It's Bayonetta all over again. Pick something out there and obvious when the real issues that alienate female gamers are overlooked for sensationalist drivel. Games journalism is a joke.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

The problem I have with this whole debate about sexism within games is that it's seemingly being promoted by people whose argument can be boiled down to "I am offended, therefore you should be offended, here's some stuff I copied off Anita's website as to why you should be offended", of which Jason's article is a prime example. To be perfectly honest? I don't give a shit, and hardly anyone does. None of the sexism drama has negatively affected the sales of any of the videogames in question. The only real action that has been taken was the renaming of one achievement because a couple of guys barked up the wrong tree. It all strikes me as journalists posturing and going "look, I can be like Anita too!"

I'd far rather see more effort go to uncovering sexism in real life than just pointing and shouting "DIS VIDYA GAEM IS SEXIST!!!111!!". Some actual change might happen that way.

Yep, the fact that there was little outcry about the lack of choice in which gender soldier you can play as in Battlefield 4 show just how seriously the issue is being taken.

 

[faceless007]

It's a sexualized character in a video game filled with exaggerated proportions. You could find the same thing in books, movies, music videos, comics, etc. It isn't inherently sexist or misogynist to have characters like this.

I'm not trying to say there isn't sexism in gaming, but singling Dragon's Crown out for it because one of the many female characters is "ultra-feminine" screams "misaligned priorities".

Without wading into the waters of how sexist Dragon's Crown is, this seems to me a rather nonsensical criticism. It was a short blog post that probably took Jason no more than a few minutes to write. I can't speak for Jason, but that doesn't exactly indicate a desire to "single it out" or make it any bigger a story than the several dozen or so other blog posts that get posted everyday. The bar for what's interesting enough to warrant that kind of post is probably rather low. Now, we can criticize that initial blog post for being short and snarky and unprofessional--which would be legitimate criticisms. But you can't simultaneously criticize it for indicating misaligned priorities, as if it were supposed to represent an important problem.

You're arguing in defense of phantom women who haven't asked you to represent them, which a lot of white male social justice "allies" who are unfamiliar with legitimately offensive media tend to do.

Wow, this is like a "reverse privilege" argument. Apparently, if you aren't directly affected by a problem, you're not supposed to have an opinion about it.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today.

Completely irrelevent to sexualized designs. You may as well call an explosion "sexist" because it attracts 18-30yr-old males. If I make games consisting of nothing but 6 hours of exploding assault rifles shooting artillery shells at fireballs and ending in a global thermonuclear explosion, I have by your definition made a "sexist" game because I'm going to be creating a fanbase dominated by young men, who will organize themselves into communities also dominated by young men, and building a culture around that game that appeals to other young men.

I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

The "Industry" - whoever that guy is - grew up the same day home computers became commercially available. Any woman can program a game, and any programmer can make a game for women. The "Industry" is under no moral obligations whatsoever. If someone is so desperate for more female gamers, they're welcome to evangelize and do PR on behalf of games that they feel appeal to women instead of sniping at games aimed at men. If they fail to build an audience for those games, that's their problem.

 

[erpg]

I feel like I've gone over this argument so often that I just want to say "it's a human body, get the fuck over it".

Here are some other paintings that caused a stir to puritan sensibilities over history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Maja_Desnuda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_(Manet)

Maybe we'll quit repeating ourselves someday.

As I've told you before, Jason (and you've obviously ignored it time and time again), there are other, much better ways to improve gaming and women: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=514885 .

 

[FartOfWar]

Because sexism is systemic in gaming, and this is but one small example of a very large issue that many people like to pretend does not exist. I think I explained this pretty well today. I'm not suggesting that people go out and boycott Dragon's Crown, nor am I suggesting that it shouldn't exist. It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic.

This is reductive in that it tars an entire industry with one wide brush (and also suggests that a medium only matures when all potentially offensive expression is entirely eliminated). Take comic books/graphic novels: The persistence of super hero stories (whose characters very often look like those that you find offensive in videogames) does not negate Chris Ware's work. Plenty of people still seek out those super hero stories and are happy with the way the human figure is portrayed in them. I don't buy those genre books but nor am I willing to argue that the comics industry as a whole won't or hasn't matured. Also worth noting that comics also contain sexualized work which doesn't necessarily fit the "12-30 year old straight male demographic" (Crumb) and certainly isn't created exclusively to chase their dollars.

 

[partyphone]

It's Bayonetta all over again. Pick something out there and obvious when the real issues that alienate female gamers are overlooked for sensationalist drivel. Games journalism is a joke.

Real issues like what?

 

[rakhir]

So Frank Frazetta, one of the greatest artists of our time, had a 14-year old boys imagination too right, Jason? Is this the path you want to walk down?

As I said in previous topic, i have a lot of books with Frazetta covers on my shelf and i love him, but this game's art is so well beyond his style that, for me, looks more like a parody.

I read my Conan books in public, but i wouldn't play this game with someone watching - the characters are embrrassing to look at. And not only the huge, jumping up-and-down boobs, but the males as well, with their small heads and giant upper bodies.

 

[Devolution]

I feel like I've gone over this argument so often that I just want to say "it's a human body, get the fuck over it".

Here are some other paintings that caused a stir to puritan sensibilities over history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Maja_Desnuda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_(Manet)

Maybe we'll quit repeating ourselves someday.

That's not the issue at all. The problem is when sexualization is all a character happens to be, and that's pretty frequent in gaming. That being said I'm tired of people targeting games where it's obviously meant to be over the top and there's a theme to it all. I'd much rather they touch on the insidious nature of popular games that keep up the stereotypes of weak/inept/no depth characters and "sexy armor." But no, people would rather argue about Bayonetta or this game. What a waste.

 

[Delusibeta]

Real issues like what?

Like sexism in the workplace. Plenty of horror stories are out there.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Isnt the Artstyle of Dragons Crown not more or less a homage of 80s Movies/Comic/Manga like Conan, Cobra and such?

At least all the characters look out of proportion. All the characters are so "overpainted" (is there such word in english) that it is not meant to be taken seriously.

Like sexism in the workplace (e.g. since we're talking about video games: in larger developers). Plenty of horror stories are out there.

I even think sexism in american sitcoms is far more "harmful" than in Videogames, since it has a much higher range and market than videogames. Though I dont wanna say that sexism in videogames is not a small issue.

 

[APF]

This is reductive in that it tars an entire industry with one wide brush (and also suggests that a medium only matures when all potentially offensive expression is entirely eliminated).

Didn't he explicitly say that was not what he was trying to suggest?


Edits: the existence of worse things does not invalidate criticism of less-worse things. Also, "it's a homage" is not a coherent defense of something being embarrassing or contributing to negative portrayals of eg women in video games. Come on guys.

 

[ReeseHoward]

Without wading into the waters of how sexist Dragon's Crown is, this seems to me a rather nonsensical criticism. It was a short blog post that probably took Jason no more than a few minutes to write. I can't speak for Jason, but that doesn't exactly indicate a desire to "single it out" or make it any bigger a story than the several dozen or so other blog posts that get posted everyday. The bar for what's interesting enough to warrant that kind of post is probably rather low. Now, we can criticize that initial blog post for being short and snarky and unprofessional--which would be legitimate criticisms. But you can't simultaneously criticize it for indicating misaligned priorities, as if it were supposed to represent an important problem.

He used it as an example of prevailing misogyny in gaming.

Wow, this is like a "reverse privilege" argument. Apparently, if you aren't directly affected by a problem, you're not supposed to have an opinion about it.

And you strawman of reducing feminist arguments to "defending women" is worse than what Dyno is doing. To use a feminist point of view is not to be "arguing in defense of phantom women" or any women, and I think any woman should be horrified to think you believe it to be so.

Though, if he were arguing in defense of these women, he wouldn't be representing them (or need their request to do so) either.

I never said he didn't have the right to defend women, just that he misunderstands the problem he's trying to address.

 

[erpg]

That's not the issue at all. The problem is when sexualization is all a character happens to be, and that's pretty frequent in gaming. That being said I'm tired of people targeting games where it's obviously meant to be over the top and there's a theme to it all. I'd much rather they touch on the insidious nature of popular games that keep up the stereotypes of weak/inept/no depth characters and "sexy armor." But no, people would rather argue about Bayonetta or this game. What a waste.

Which likely isn't the case in DC (or Bayonetta, for that matter). As I said in the edit, there are better ways to go about creating a discussion about the whole thing than going after the low hanging and relatively inconsequential arguments.

It's art, it's a style, it's a human body, and yes, it sexualizes characters - but unless it's denigrating the them, it's just an aesthetic choice by an artist.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Didn't he explicitly say that was not what he was trying to suggest?

Backtracking due to it being an indefensible nonsense standpoint. Original snipe is "Game developers should stop letting". Definitive. Stop it. None of it. Cease and desist.

 

[Mully]

This is reductive in that it tars an entire industry with one wide brush (and also suggests that a medium only matures when all potentially offensive expression is entirely eliminated). Take comic books/graphic novels: The persistence of super hero stories (whose characters very often look like those that you find offensive in videogames) does not negate Chris Ware's work. Plenty of people still seek out those super hero stories and are happy with the way the human figure is portrayed in them. I don't buy those genre books but nor am I willing to argue that the comics industry as a whole won't or hasn't matured. Also worth noting that comics also contains sexualized work which doesn't necessarily fit the "12-30 year old straight male demographic" (Crumb) and certainly is created exclusively to chase their dollars.

The difference between most video games and other forms of expression is that video games mostly focus on explosions, sexualized female characters, and violence. Yes, you can show examples of games that do not have any of this, but those three are basically the norm in many video games.

The same cannot be said for music, art, and film. Each have a variety of different genres that don't revolve around the same three things listed above.

If games want to grow, designers, developers, and producers are going to have to learn how to create games that do something more than create explosions, depict sexualized characters, and shoot or slice antagonists.

 

[FartOfWar]

Didn't he explicitly say that was not what he was trying to suggest?


Edits: the existence of worse things does not invalidate criticism of less-worse things. Also, "it's a homage" is not a coherent defense of something being embarrassing or contributing to negative portrayals of eg women in video games. Come on guys.

"It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic." The suggestion is that this work is representative of all work, and that no other examples exist.

 

[Delusibeta]

The difference between most video games and other forms of expression is that video games mostly focus on explosions, sexualized female characters, and violence. Yes, you can show examples of games that do not have any of this, but those three are basically the norm in many video games.

The same cannot be said for music, art, and film. Each have a variety of different genres that don't revolve around the same three things listed above.

If games want to grow, designers, developers, and producers are going to have to learn how to create games that do something more than create explosions, depict sexualized characters, and shoot or slice antagonists.

So, you want indie games.

 

[Devolution]

Which likely isn't the case in DC (or Bayonetta, for that matter). As I said in the edit, there are better ways to go about creating a discussion about the whole thing than going after the low hanging and relatively inconsequential arguments.

It just sucks. There's actual shitty characters or shitty designs in plenty of games where you want to like it and people are stuck on these Japanese RPGs that are obviously tongue in cheek and lifting inspiration from an obvious source.

As someone who plays all sorts of games I'm more interested in a change of story line and developed characters. With that can come the idea that these characters are people and maybe their representations should reflect that.

Some of the stuff that came out during Bayo seemed like a bunch of people just not getting it and looking to pounce on stuff that really isn't a problem, at least to me.

 

[APF]

Backtracking due to it being an indefensible nonsense standpoint. Original snipe is "Game developers should stop letting". Definitive. Stop it. None of it. Cease and desist.

Diversion. He said "stop letting teenage boys [etc]." That's very different, and is also something he backed off from and clarified. But backtrack or no, if you quote a dude's comment you should argue against what he actually said in it.

"It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic." The suggestion is that this work is representative of all work, and that no other examples exist.

Oh come on, he's saying it's an example, and it is. Just like your GN comments showed examples. I kinda get your point, but be wary of straying too far off into these waters.

 

[JABEE]

Fair enough on the Code of Princess story. Can't be held accountable in that case. And your current position on it is admirable. I can buy that you made a mistake on the initial story, too. Consider the sequence of events in the eyes of your audience, though - that's where my take came from. It struck me in so far as it stopped at saying, 'here's a game with problematic imagery' but expressed as much in the form of a personal insult and then that was that.

I apologize for the amorphous they. I was punning on the fact that Kamitani had to become an amorphous they in order to call him a 14-year-old boy. (I.e. press often pretend not to know who makes games when it's convenient)

Exactly

 

[ReeseHoward]

Real issues like what?

The real meat and bones of the article is that there are things in the game industry that puts off women. Gender roles already keep a lot of women from picking up video games or entering the industry, but stuff like this alienates people who already feel like outsiders. That's the point that should be made. Insulting an artist or his work is out of hand because it has nothing to do with the actual relevant topic.

 

[FartOfWar]

The difference between most video games and other forms of expression is that video games mostly focus on explosions, sexualized female characters, and violence. Yes, you can show examples of games that do not have any of this, but those three are basically the norm in many video games.

The same cannot be said for music, art, and film. Each have a variety of different genres that don't revolve around the same three things listed above.

If games want to grow, designers, developers, and producers are going to have to learn how to create games that do something more than create explosions, depict sexualized characters, and shoot or slice antagonists.

Which is why I chose comics instead of lit.
And genre work won't vanish when other, more high-minded work in the same medium becomes increasingly common (this is as true for fiction and film, too, where the volume of books and movies manufactured that are more or less series of explosions and sex acts still outnumber those that aren't).

 

[Mully]

So, you want indie games.

That would certainly head it into the right direction. PAX East gave me a little more faith that games may be headed in a mature direction when I was walking through the Indie section.

 

[Jake Tower]

"It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic." The suggestion is that this work is representative of all work, and that no other examples exist.

It also suggests, to me at least, that only 'politically correct' expression is acceptable.

 

[jschreier]

"It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic." The suggestion is that this work is representative of all work, and that no other examples exist.

Right, I don't mean to generalize. Pretend I said "It's another example of a large subset of the industry that won't grow up," etc. Obviously there are plenty of games that are interesting and inclusive. But the widespread issues are impossible to deny.

 

[erpg]

Some of the stuff that came out during Bayo seemed like a bunch of people just not getting it and looking to pounce on stuff that really isn't a problem, at least to me.

I'm not expecting the big guys in games journalism to research anything either. It's a lot easier to start an article with a sexualised picture convince people that "this is sexist and misogynistic" than actually go into depth on characterization. Sad, but that's what it is.

 

[Delusibeta]

That would certainly head it into the right direction. PAX East gave me a little more faith that games may be headed in a mature direction when I was walking through the Indie section.

Fundamentally, that's true for movies, too. Most blockbusters can be (broadly speaking) divided into three target markets: the 14-30 adult male (most "AAA games"), the family (Nintendo games and its imitators) and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (which doesn't have a video game analogue, but you could make a case for the IGF entrants being the equivalent).

Talking about indie games, I searched for Analogue at Kotaku. I'm going to give Kotaku the benefit of the doubt and assume the search feature is borked.

 

[Devolution]

I'm not expecting the big guys in games journalism to research anything either. It's a lot easier to start an article with a sexualised picture convince people that "this is sexist and misogynistic" than actually go into depth on characterization. Sad, but that's what it is.

It'd be nice to get input from women who do game. In the end it just seems like more "let us tell you what to be offended by." I mean look at the typical discussion. How do women actually factor into the dialogue? Instead it's just the same voices.

 

[faceless007]

"It's just another example of an industry that won't grow up, an industry that makes no effort to be inclusive to people who don't fit that vaunted 12-30-year-old straight male demographic." The suggestion is that this work is representative of all work, and that no other examples exist.

I'm fairly certain Jason was not arguing that literally 100% of the industry's output reflects the problem. I'm sure he's aware of counter-examples, but was describing a problem he sees in the industry generally. (And I can't imagine he was including Double Fine in that.)