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[bgassassin]

The way you're making it sound, the difference will be smaller than what we'll actually get. You're making it sound like 600 gigaflops of more performance is not a whole entire football field to play around with. That difference is ridiculous for two systems that are supposed to be similarly priced. You would expect the edge to be going towards the console that's more expensive. Somehow it's going towards the console with the lower price? Like, wtf.

That's not even mentioning the 176 GIGABYTES per second of bandwidth across EIGHT GIGS of RAM, as compared to only 66 or so GB/s of bandwidth with an additional 102 or so GB/s across only 32MBs of RAM... good luck optimizing and pigeon-holing your game code.

Again, that difference is pretty ridiculous between two systems that are supposed to be similarly priced and launching in the same generation. Again, you would expect the one that's more expensive to be more powerful. How is it not? Oh, that's right, because one of the systems, the more expensive one, is substituting those other 600 gigaflops of power for a fucking camera.

Pricing is a different debate. Like you said MS chose to put their money into Kinect and the audio hardware needed for Kinect's performance.

That said you're not saying anything I'm not acknowledging. I just don't see how people can look at that and act like PS4 in another "gen leap" over Xbone.

Where are you to question Microsoft's technological understanding when they claim that their cloud processing will balance the difference in game performance?

You're missing the point of what I was saying based on this question. MS wasn't the one I was questioning. I'm not going to buy into MS PR.

Can you get on a roll with some leaks instead. Or am I confusing you with someone that still has some?

Last thing I passed along was that the Xbone GPU was not downclocked. I don't go out of my way to try and get info like I used to though.

He's not an insider. At least i remember him saying that after someone called him out on all his super powered wiiu speculation.

I think now is a good time to define what I believe an insider is. An insider to me is someone who has direct access to documentation. For example lherre and Matt are insiders based on that. I am not an insider based on that. I get info passed on to me instead.

yeah, he's not. and if he is, his agenda doesn't include spreading truthfact.

Hey, hey! I give truthfact when I can too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37507570&postcount=18519
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41612008&postcount=2536

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38657020&postcount=1

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47825093&postcount=1283

I have no agenda other than questioning the expectations of PS4 performance over Xbone.

 

[expletive]

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47825093&postcount=1283

I have no agenda other than questioning the expectations of PS4 performance over Xbone.

Has there been any confirmation on XBO CPU cores being different from Jaguar in any meaningful way?

 

[bgassassin]

Has there been any confirmation on XBO CPU cores being different from Jaguar in any meaningful way?

I think it's safe to say something was misread with the CPU.

 

[ElTorro]

Has there been any confirmation on XBO CPU cores being different from Jaguar in any meaningful way?

No, on the contrary, the leaked documents (VGLeaks) pretty much describe vanilla Jaguar cores coming of the shelf.

 

[mrklaw]

do we know anything about the PS4 having audio hardware support like Xbox one is supposed to have? That might make some kind of dent in the differences between the two if PS4 has to handle audio on the CPU or GPU

 

[ElTorro]

do we know anything about the PS4 having audio hardware support like Xbox one is supposed to have? That might make some kind of dent in the differences between the two if PS4 has to handle audio on the CPU or GPU

It has dedicated audio hardware on the APU.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=3

"The reason we use dedicated units is it means the overhead as far as games are concerned is very low," said Cerny. "It also establishes a baseline that we can use in our user experience."

"For example, by having the hardware dedicated unit for audio, that means we can support audio chat without the games needing to dedicate any significant resources to them. The same thing for compression and decompression of video." The audio unit also handles decompression of "a very large number" of MP3 streams for in-game audio, Cerny added.

 

[dragonelite]

It has dedicated audio hardware on the APU.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=3

Aah that nullifies SHAPE.

 

[bgassassin]

do we know anything about the PS4 having audio hardware support like Xbox one is supposed to have? That might make some kind of dent in the differences between the two if PS4 has to handle audio on the CPU or GPU

As mentioned it does have audio hardware, but MS went overboard IMO. But I say that because some of the BoM for that could have been allocated to graphical performance and that apparently wasn't the direction MS wanted to go with Xbone.

 

[Can Crusher]

do we know anything about the PS4 having audio hardware support like Xbox one is supposed to have? That might make some kind of dent in the differences between the two if PS4 has to handle audio on the CPU or GPU

It has dedicated audio hardware, Cerny talked about it at the PS4 announcement conference.

BGassassin can spin it all he wants, but not only will the Ps4 have 2GB of extra RAM (available, faster) than the Xbox One, which by itself is already very very relevant, we are talking about a GPU with much more computational power behind it.

It's like building a PC of equivalent parts and saying the game performance gap would be small. It would be the difference between playing Crysis 3 on medium vs Crysis 3 on very high, which would mean better effects, better IQ, better textures.

So not only will multiplatform devs have an easy time making the differences felt on screen, specially compared to this gen, there's ample potential for first party efforts to really stand apart.

This isn't to say that the Xbox One doesn't have enough juice to make great looking games if Ryse and Forza are anything to go by.

 

[bgassassin]

It has dedicated audio hardware, Cerny talked about it at the PS4 announcement conference.

BGassassin can spin it all he wants, but not only will the Ps4 have 2GB of extra RAM (available, faster) than the Xbox One, which by itself is already very very relevant, we are talking about a GPU with much more computational power behind it.

It's like building a PC of equivalent parts and saying the game performance gap would be small. It would be the difference between playing Crysis 3 on medium vs Crysis 3 on very high, which would mean better effects, better IQ, better textures.

So not only will multiplatform devs have an easy time making the differences felt on screen, specially compared to this gen, there's ample potential for first party efforts to really stand apart.

This isn't to say that the Xbox One doesn't have enough juice to make great looking games if Ryse and Forza are anything to go by.

Not spinning anything. I'm not changing anything about the specs. And I definitely haven't said the gap was small. I don't know where you pulled that from.

And looking at comparable PC parts and in turn benchmarks (i.e. 7770 vs 7850), I don't know how you can look at them and say the difference would be medium vs very high.

http://www.techspot.com/review/652-amd-radeon-hd-7790/page3.html

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

And I've never said we won't. It's just not going to be as big as the way it sounds some are expecting.

I tried to send this message pages ago, with no success.

Right now, in NeoGAF, many people actually believes that 50% more CU's on the GPU side translates into 50% performance in the system as a whole. When it will be unable to do so on GPU performance alone.

Also, they are asking for 200% framerate increase, resolution AA and IQ from that gap, omiting than going from no AA to 4xAA alone can eat most of that difference.

Then they are calling a generational leap from two chips with the very same architecture, fixed functions and features.

A no one of them will admit the CPU bottleneck that will prevent the PS4 to take full advantage of the extra 50% CU's.


Obviously PS4 have a performance advantage and it's the winner design, but people is expecting a PS2 vs original Xbox, and that won't happen.

 

[LCfiner]

If the 7770 vs 7850 comparison is accurate, then this comparison across lots of games certainly implies med. vs. high or v. high to me (if matching framerate to 30 or 60)

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/536?vs=549

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

Again, 7770 have half the memory bus. And we are talking about overclocked i7's, not crappy Jaguar cores.

 

[Cidd]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

 

[androvsky]

I tried to send this message pages ago, with no success.

Right now, in NeoGAF, many people actually believes that 50% more CU's on the GPU side translates into 50% performance in the system as a whole. When it will be unable to do so on GPU performance alone.

Also, they are asking for 200% framerate increase, resolution AA and IQ from that gap, omiting than going from no AA to 4xAA alone can eat most of that difference.

Then they are calling a generational leap from two chips with the very same architecture, fixed functions and features.

A no one of them will admit the CPU bottleneck that will prevent the PS4 to take full advantage of the extra 50% CU's.


Obviously PS4 have a performance advantage and it's the winner design, but people is expecting a PS2 vs original Xbox, and that won't happen.

Doesn't the PS4 also have double the ROPs vs the Xbox One, at least according to most leaks? I'd think that plus the faster memory will add up to a noticeable difference. Granted, the CPUs are almost exactly the same, but if the One doesn't have good GPU compute customizations like the PS4, the difference is likely to become more telling over time as GPU compute gets used more.

Sony's working on making the GPU work closer to the Cell from the PS3, with compute tasks getting shuffled in idle spots between normal GPU shader work without interfering with rendering. I'm sure the CUs will get used a lot as the generation goes on.

 

[Proelite]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

When it's put this way, that's quite an engineering beatdown. A reversal from previous gen.

 

[Jake Tower]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

Amazing when listed out plainly.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

You need those extra Rops for better AA. You will not get it for free just from memory bandwidth.

 

[Cidd]

Amazing when listed out plainly.

And I'm sure I missed a few.

 

[bgassassin]

If the 7770 vs 7850 comparison is accurate, then this comparison across lots of games certainly implies med. vs. high or v. high to me (if matching framerate to 30 or 60)

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/536?vs=549

It's not completely accurate as both console GPU's are better. The main difference is that Xbone's GPU has twice the geometry performance of a 7770. That said I don't see a medium vs very high kind of difference. Med. to high sure, but not the former.

Again, 7770 have half the memory bus. And we are talking about overclocked i7's, not crappy Jaguar cores.

The bus doesn't mean anything necessarily because of the usage of DDR3. And while the GPU does have ESRAM, it's usage is apparently similar to Wii U's eDRAM in that devs can use it how they need.

Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

Over the years of posting on messageboards, I've come to learn not everyone really pays attention to what is being said. This is one of those times.

 

[Ty4on]

Again, 7770 have half the memory bus. And we are talking about overclocked i7's, not crappy Jaguar cores.

7770 has more memory bandwidth than the DDR3 RAM in the One (66GB/s vs 72GB/s). The CPU won't mean much. Most games just need decent single core performance are rarely stress the CPUs hard. The eight Jaguar cores at 1.6Ghz have about as much performance as two 3.5ish GHz Intel cores (Sandy/Ivy/Haswell) with two threads.

We'll get the real answer to CPU performance (and how they will affect next gen) when Planetside 2 is ported to PS4.

 

[RoKKeR]

Haven't really kept up on the tech side of things until today when I saw that, roughly, the GPU in the PS4 can be compared to a GTX 660 while the Xbone's is a GTX 650. Is this, again, roughly correct? (sorry, but I don't speak AMD GPU names)

If so, holy shit, that is a much larger parity in performance than I initially thought.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

When it's put this way, that's quite an engineering beatdown. A reversal from previous gen.

Yup. I love when some competitor just outdates their rival with a better, simpler, cheaper and earlier design.

Everyone should be able to enjoy those dramas not taking sides.

 

[Krusenstern]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

Don't forget:

Xbox games will be cheaper than PS4 games because of used game restrictions. Judging by the prices on amazon, they're the same.
And the Cloud™ will make Xbox games superior to PS4 games. Let's see how that turns out.

 

[CLEEK]

And I'm sure I missed a few.

The next Xbox is a 'super computer' is my favourite. A super computer from the 1960s, maybe.

 

[boredandlazy]

Don't forget:

Xbox games will be cheaper than PS4 games because of used game restrictions. Judging by the prices on amazon, they're the same.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Rebel Leader]

I'll believe it when I see it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CXCCB64/?tag=neogaf0e-20

http://kotaku.com/microsoft-to-sell-next-gen-games-for-60-price-of-gami-513489951

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

The bus doesn't mean anything necessarily because of the usage of DDR3. And while the GPU does have ESRAM, it's usage is apparently similar to Wii U's eDRAM in that devs can use it how they need.

You don't have the same bandwidth usage and workloads from Main Memory > PCIe > Video Memory than from Unified Memory with extra eSRAM. Having half bus in the former setup is a huge handicap to overall performance.

7770 has more memory bandwidth than the DDR3 RAM in the One (66GB/s vs 72GB/s). The CPU won't mean much. Most games just need decent single core performance are rarely stress the CPUs hard. The eight Jaguar cores at 1.6Ghz have about as much performance as two 3.5ish GHz Intel cores (Sandy/Ivy/Haswell) with two threads.

We'll get the real answer to CPU performance when Planetside 2 is ported to PS4.

You replied yourself. You can't expect comparable IPC from Jaguar to Core. And you forgot eSRAM.

 

[Cidd]

Don't forget:

Xbox games will be cheaper than PS4 games because of used game restrictions. Judging by the prices on amazon, they're the same.

The next Xbox is a 'super computer' is my favourite. A super computer from the 1960s, maybe.

Wow how could I forget these gems.

Also. the GPU in the Durango uses a special programing language to give it 2x the power of a normal GPU. hahahahaha

 

[szaromir]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

You missed those 5 million posts stating that Microsoft's 1st party line-up would consist exclusively of Kinect games.

 

[bgassassin]

You don't have the same bandwidth usage and workloads from Main Memory > PCIe > Video Memory than from Unified Memory with extra eSRAM. Having half bus in the former setup is a huge handicap to overall performance.

But if the 7770 had the same size bus as Xbone, then it's BW would be almost the same as a 7850.

Going back I do agree with what you said in the other post.

 

[ElTorro]

By the way, do we already have benchmarks for comparable CPUs/APUs with Jaguar cores?

 

[beast786]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

XB1 would have better developmental tools since MS is a software company : FAlse

 

[Wickerbasket]

You missed those 5 million posts stating that Microsoft's 1st party line-up would consist exclusively of Kinect games.

It still might; wait until they announce more of those games features.

Spoiler

I'm joking

 

[boredandlazy]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CXCCB64/?tag=neogaf0e-20

http://kotaku.com/microsoft-to-sell-next-gen-games-for-60-price-of-gami-513489951

So we have a Kotaku article speculating about nothing, and an Amazon link to Battlefield 4 for XBOne which is 3 cents more expensive than the PS4 version?

 

[charsace]

The X1 has better audio hardware than the PS4. You can have 4 controllers on the X1 doing 5.1 audio for each player. The PS4 controller only does stereo. Kinect also has its own audio hardware.

 

[Truespeed]

So we have a Kotaku article speculating about nothing, and an Amazon link to Battlefield 4 for XBOne which is 3 cents more expensive than the PS4 version?

Damn. A 3 cent cloud tax.

 

[BRocknRolla]

So we have a Kotaku article speculating about nothing, and an Amazon link to Battlefield 4 for XBOne which is 3 cents more expensive than the PS4 version?

I don't know. If I didn't bother thinking about it for a second or more, I could probably be convinced that these unrelated things somehow proved something...

 

[Shaneus]

Don't forget:

Xbox games will be cheaper than PS4 games because of used game restrictions. Judging by the prices on amazon, they're the same.

Man, that's going to be by far the most interesting thing to come out of this gen... whether PS4 games will be more expensive than One titles. I have a damn good feeling they won't, but it'll be fun watching MS try and justify why the prices haven't tumbled.

 

[coldfoot]

XBone games will be cheaper due to lower demand...

 

[Replicant]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

Dat ever-changing goalpost. I wonder if they ever get tired of it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You need those extra Rops for better AA. You will not get it for free just from memory bandwidth.

That depends on what kind of AA the PS4 and Xboned will use. These are DX11-class GPUs, so MSAA is gone now unless the game is an up-port of a current-gen game. We can expect FXAA to be the standard for PS4 and Xboned, and in that case ROPs means fuck-all, since FXAA is done on shader units. Instead, we'll see those ROPs being used for higher framerates and maintaining 1080p resolution.

 

[CLEEK]

Man, that's going to be by far the most interesting thing to come out of this gen... whether PS4 games will be more expensive than One titles. I have a damn good feeling they won't, but it'll be fun watching MS try and justify why the prices haven't tumbled.

The only way Xbone games would be cheaper is if both MS and publisher agree to take less of a cut from the sale price. Which, if the idea that used game market kills revenue for new games was true, they'd be happy to do. It will see if publishers put their money where their mouths are.

And retailers are less likely to discount new games if they aren't able to benefit from trade ins. They'll have a one time chance to profit from Xbone game sales.

 

[MikeE21286]

Honestly I see prices on retail games going up before down.

 

[CLEEK]

Dat ever-changing goalpost. I wonder if they ever get tired of it.

The moving goalposts has allowed MS to score a record number of own goals since we went from rumour to reality stages. It's been truely astonishing to watch a company trash one of its most prestige brands in just a few short weeks. A brand that has taken 13 years and *billions* of dollars to establish.

 

[XAL]

btw youiw lil not njhear abouthing about tech atMS E3 presentation. tech tarbaby (notracistst!) IS TSTICKIER THAN YOU WIL EVER KNOW. I LOOK FORWARF TO READING THE BOOK BY VENTUREBEAT.

theyMSrushed. --caughtoutbysonychangs. leadershitfailure.p.

...nope, still racist.

 

[satam55]

The X1 has better audio hardware than the PS4. You can have 4 controllers on the X1 doing 5.1 audio for each player. The PS4 controller only does stereo. Kinect also has its own audio hardware.

Who is trying to listen to 5.1 sound through their controller? How would that even work? Downmixed Stereo is appropriate for your controller.

 

[AgentP]

I'm really loving next gen already, I've never seen so much drama unfold before a console release not to mention how wrong one side of the aisle have been. It's almost unheard of.

Lets take a run down memory lane shall we?

Xbox will be more powerful than the PS4: False
Xbox will be cheaper: False
Xbox will have Dual APU: False
Xbox specs have been upgraded: False
Xbox wont come with Kinect: False
Xbox got secret sauce: False
Xbox won't use 3GB of RAm for OS: False
PS4 will have online DRM also: False
PS4 will be always online too: False
PS4 will only have 4GB Ram: False
PS4 will include the PS Eye: False
PS4 will be bigger than Xbox because of GDDR5: False


Now we're at 50% won't make a difference lol.

I see more meltdown incoming

Wow, this list reminds me of Rieko. Those were the good old days.

 

[LCfiner]

Who is trying to listen to 5.1 sound through their controller? How would that even work? Downmixed Stereo is appropriate for your controller.

Think headset.

Even then, stereo is fine

 

[Manmademan]

Man, that's going to be by far the most interesting thing to come out of this gen... whether PS4 games will be more expensive than One titles. I have a damn good feeling they won't, but it'll be fun watching MS try and justify why the prices haven't tumbled.

not sure why this one is so hard to understand.

Game prices are what they are because that's the price at which games will sell.

or to put it simply, once EA has already determined gamers will happily shell out $60 a pop for battlefield at launch, they aren't going to lower that price when their costs go down. they're going to keep it right there and make more money.