I imagine it would work a bit like the Pictochat level in Brawl, with a stylus tracing lines in the stage!
Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS: Info Collection - Dojo, Mega Man and Trailer! 2014!
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
I imagine it would work a bit like the Pictochat level in Brawl, with a stylus tracing lines in the stage!
But it also made the wait long and unbearable. You felt the weight of each and every day.
C.Olimar788
Member
No, this is absolutely untrue! It is impossible to say that game X is better than game Y objectively due to the many subjective facets that must be taken into consideration! To suggest otherwise is simply preposterous.
A video game is, at its heart, a combination of a game and a piece of art. And neither of those things can be compared objectively, either! One cannot say that baseball is objectively better than basketball any more than one can suggest that the Mona Lisa is objectively better than A Persistence of Memory.
About the best one could argue is that Brawl has more content than Melee (which in itself could be argued but let's not get into that), but one cannot suggest that it is objectively better because of this! Quality and quantity are not directly proportional, after all.
Polioliolio
Member
I played a hell of a lot of melee, but I like Brawl better. I also can't stand the uptight asshole community of Fox/Marth/No items/Final Destination. Is it a coincidence the majority of them are pricks?
I just want a fun game that everybody can get into. Brawl is fun, so striking a balance between it and Melee sounds perfect.
I just want a fun game that everybody can get into. Brawl is fun, so striking a balance between it and Melee sounds perfect.
Okay, I have to ask: does this community actually exist or is it actually just a rampant meme?
I'm asking because, for one, there are far more characters played in the tournament level Melee play I've seen than Fox or Marth and it's not all Final Destination either.
Troubled Bat
Member
Guys, I just had an awesome dream. And makes me wish it could happen.. But I was using Mega Man, going against Samus while playing on my SSB themed 3DS. It was glorious. T^T
It's a riff on wannabes that think they play smash at a high level.
It's a meme. Besides the no items being true, people always bring this stuff up. :-/
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't know why people praise 03 and then don't even give 05 a chance when it's better in every way.
I blame 04 for ruining the good streak.
Why do you like Brawl better than Melee? Do you think a game more like Melee would be less fun and harder for regular people to get into? I'm not trying to be patronizing. I'm genuinely curious.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Sweet avatar. What's the source?
Red Arremer
Member
Whose?
The no items/Fox only/Final Destination is only an exaggerated version of the competitive Smash (or in this case, Melee) player. Of course there's more than one viable character or allowed stage, but Fox is one of the top characters in that game, so he's played a lot; the fact he was one of the first to be discovered to be top tier of course meant most players were going to go with him instead of others. Final Destination is also the stereotypical "competitively viable" stage - it's just a still platform, with no movement or hazards; something that the competitive scene doesn't particularly like.
Did a bit of research on the Dojo:
Brawl Game development began in October 2005.
Announce trailer for brawl was at E3, May 9 2006.
Original planned release was December 3, 2007.
Second Planned US release: February 10, 2008.
Actual Japanes Release January 31, 2008
Actual release March 9, 2008.
First Post for Brawl on Dojo was Tue May 22nd, 2007.
http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/howto/basic/basic01.html
195 days before originally planned release
264 days before second planned release
292 days before actual release
No posts on Sat/Sun
Some days had more than one post
168 Posts before Originally planned release
215 Posts before Actual Japanese Launch (Spoiler posts after this point)
66 posts after japanese launch
281 Posts total
We can make some assumptions about this data.
We can maybe expect to get A dojo daily update starting MAY of next year.
If they want to protract it, and give us one post a day rather than many, we could potentially get it 215 business days before Launch, if the number of posts is similar. Let's assume launch is also Dec 3rd, we could see a dojo as early as February of next year.
Summary: DO NOT EXPECT THE DOJO'S DAILY UPDATES THIS YEAR
Brawl Game development began in October 2005.
Announce trailer for brawl was at E3, May 9 2006.
Original planned release was December 3, 2007.
Second Planned US release: February 10, 2008.
Actual Japanes Release January 31, 2008
Actual release March 9, 2008.
First Post for Brawl on Dojo was Tue May 22nd, 2007.
http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/howto/basic/basic01.html
195 days before originally planned release
264 days before second planned release
292 days before actual release
No posts on Sat/Sun
Some days had more than one post
168 Posts before Originally planned release
215 Posts before Actual Japanese Launch (Spoiler posts after this point)
66 posts after japanese launch
281 Posts total
We can make some assumptions about this data.
We can maybe expect to get A dojo daily update starting MAY of next year.
If they want to protract it, and give us one post a day rather than many, we could potentially get it 215 business days before Launch, if the number of posts is similar. Let's assume launch is also Dec 3rd, we could see a dojo as early as February of next year.
Summary: DO NOT EXPECT THE DOJO'S DAILY UPDATES THIS YEAR
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wait, Villager was supposed to be in Brawl? So the "AC couldn't fit because violence" was more from Melee?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ok, but we can still break them down into things that ARE objective, and making some assumption that More = Better. Under that assumption, one could argue that brawl is objectively better. As an overall gameplay experience, which combines art, mechanics, etc, yes, it's is strictly a matter of preference. In my personal OPINION, brawl is objectively better, but overall I suppose not.
I've never understood no items/Final Destination. I get that it supposedly makes it more about "Skill" because it removes some of the luck element. But imo, it removes all of the things that make Smash special and fun. And if you're really good, you should be able to adapt and cope with random elements.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
Red Arremer
Member
Excuse me for barging into this metadiscussion, I have particularly tried to avoid, but this... is factually (and therefore objectively) wrong.
There's no "ifs" or "buts" or interpretations of the word "objective", it is the wrong use of the word "objective", and you're looking for its antonym; which is subjective. If it's your opinion, then it's subjective. Period.
Anything that comes down to opinions or personal interpretations is subjective. Looking merely at the facts is objective.
Brawl has objectively more characters than Melee.
Melee has objectively faster gameplay than Brawl.
However, whatever game you prefer or you like better, that's subjective.
The content's quality is a heavy mixed bag, though.
Stage builder is absolutely underwhelming and limiting.
Replays are limited to 3 minutes (unless you use a code)
SSE is dragged out and painfully boring to play after some time
Event Matches are not as good as Melee's (or for that matter, memorable)
Break the Targets was awful
Boss Rush was challenging but isn't fun because of how the bosses are designed
Doesn't include any Smash 64 stages and it includes the worst SSBM stages it possibly could (seriously, NO MUTE CITY? NO FOUNTAIN OF DREAMS?) and altered one of them because of a global mechanic which made the stage even WORSE (Jungle Japes)
ROMs that are taking up space that could have been used for other content
The pinball mini-game wasn't that fun and loses its appeal very quickly (it's so bad I even forgot its name)
Classic Mode is not like the previous games
All-Star Mode is fine for the most part
Special Brawl is decent but still limiting (Stamina you still cannot have stocks with)
Rotation Mode is a pointless addition
Tournament Mode is still bad and limiting
WiFi was extremely terrible and limiting
And so on and so on
Just because it has more content does not mean it is better, the quality of the content matters and more than half of the content Brawl has is sub par. The DOJO made these things look better than they actually are.
There are more uses of this meme than actual individuals who fit its description.
It's pretty tiresome how people concoct virtually non-existent bogeymen to make their positions seem reasonable.
Your comment is far more harsh than any of the actual players of the community ever are towards people.
You've certainly let a meme dictate your opinion of a group of people.
What if you're only slightly better? Say you'd win 6/4 games or maybe 7/3 games against someone on a good day. If you're playing this in a tournament, do you want to risk getting kicked out of the tournament off of one unlucky game in a 2/3 set? It isn't just about who is bad and who is good. In a competitive setting, I'd imagine that it's pretty rare to be heads and shoulders above everyone else.
Red Arremer
Member
I am not a competitive Smash player (anymore), but playing competitively has little to do with playing casually. If you like playing with items and wacky stages, that is perfectly fine. You don't have to play competitively to enjoy the game.
The point is that extreme randomness doesn't really have a place in a competition. As an example, it wouldn't make, say, a 100m sprint competition more "fun" if you had the audience toss balls at the runners, or logs between their legs, in an attempt of throwing them off. It would make it unfair, and defeats the spirit of competing to measure up the runners' skills.
The same can be said about competitive video games. It's not adjusting to random elements (and there's several characters and stages that have a random factor within their nature and that are viable/allowed), it's random elements that can turn a game completely around. This is especially true when there's real cash on the line; some Smash tournaments have prizepools of several hundred or thousand $.
In Melee, all items have been turned off because as soon as you turn on items, you turn on container items (e.g. barrels and crates), which can contain powerful explosives instead of items. In Brawl, you can turn containers off, and there's actually some experimental rulesets using certain items (for instance the fan), trying to assess the viability of items; but the mainstream tourneys turn them off, partly because of habit.
In Melee, you can't turn off explosive containers or containers period. How would you like it if a Capsule spawned right in front of you just as you were doing a smash attack or something to the opponent and instead it hit the container and it exploded on you costing you the match? It's the randomness like that which doesn't determine the better player. That is something you can't adapt to or predict.
And yes, this is something that happened when items were on at tournaments in Melee for year one of the game's tournament life. So the community did try them for a long while before turning them off.
Absolutely no one in the competitive tournament scene tells everyone like an elitist douchebag that you have to play with items off. If you like to play with them, more power to you, but the tournament scene has thrived on no items and will likely continue to do so until Sakurai makes the spawn points non-random and predictable.
Good players can adapt to items and a great Smash player can probably trounce any new player over and over regardless of how many hammers or starmen the new player gets. Smash isn't like Mario Kart where a blue shell can definitely help a casual player beat a veteran. In both Brawl and Melee, items don't override the skill gap so much as they allow a new player to have fun by getting a kill here or there.
The problem is that items and, to a lesser extent, stage gimmicks devalue the competition between two relatively evenly skilled players. If a player receives a windfall of good items or, and this has happened to me hundreds of times personally, another player dies because they happened to throw out a smash attack right as a Bom-omb spawned above their head then that element of randomness will decide a winner.
I really don't understand why casual Smash and competitive Smash can't coexist peacefully. In fact, since Smash Bros. is all about options I think it would be beneficial to the game if they went ahead and put in a "Pro" playlist (but with a different name, obviously) that disables the wacky items and stages along with a Classic playlist for online play. Smash Bros. is hugely popular so splitting the player base wouldn't have much of an impact at all. It would also end the argument that Smash isn't competitive "out of the box" like traditional fighters are.
I think it would be a nice olive branch to the competitive community and wouldn't negatively impact anyone actually playing the game, only people who like to argument what Smash should be on the internet.
Red Arremer
Member
Funny part about this is that the Blue Shell of all items is the least beneficial to the user, especially the further they are behind.
If you can actually benefit from the Blue Shell, the gap between you and the first placed player was really close anyway.
Save 'N Quit
Banned
I approve Sakurai's commitment (so far) about having uniqueness amongst the newcomers.
Makes me hopeful they don't have characters inherit moves from previous ones.
Makes me hopeful they don't have characters inherit moves from previous ones.
Polioliolio
Member
Brawl just has so much more content, and characters. More imagination potential. It's just an overall better experience.
When I see people bringing up matters such as 'it's too easy to snap roll', 'you shouldn't be able to dodge in air more than once', or even the concept of tripping, I've realized I just don't really care. It doesn't have to be super technical to be fun. Let's have depth, let's have some degree of technicality, but let's let the average gamer be able to do it all, and then people want to to get competitive can simply play smart.
There are a number of savants who would be upset if they heard 'wave dashing' was out, but what the hell is that? It looks ridiculous and isn't inherit to these game characters and the way they would even fight. It's some kind of unintended freakout of an exploit. I don't want these super competitive folk influencing the game design, and I suspect Sakurai doesn't either, with all the jabs he's made toward that crowd.
Smash Bros has never been comparable to any fighting game where you'd have to memorize attacks and combos. I love how you can do any move you want with the press of a single button and a direction. The simplicity makes it more of a smart man's game, as well as a fun, anyone can get involved game, as opposed to a game of who can memorize abstract attack commands and press buttons faster.
I am excited to hear that the new smash will be somewhere between melee and Brawl in speed. That sounds about perfect. That said, I get scared when words like 'accessibility' are thrown about. There's a balance to be made, and I trust Sakurai to make things right.
edit: Really, when I go back to Melee, I miss Dedede, I miss Wario, and Diddy. I don't really think so much about the technical aspects of the game, because Brawl does them mostly fine.
Oops sorry, Wasn't thinking when I wrote that. What I basically meant to say was that I like Brawl better than melee for the things that it has that are objectively improved over melee, such as more content, more modes, more options, more characters, more stages, greater attention to detail (with respect to the character's franchises), better graphics (more polygons/better textures), etc.
Funny party about this is that the Blue Shell of all items is the least beneficial to the user, especially the further they are behind.
If you can actually benefit from the Blue Shell, the gap between you and the first placed player was really close anyway.
I haven't played all the Mario Karts and haven't dedicated a large amount of time to some of the newer ones but the blue shell was incredibly useful in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!. In fact, the big flaw in that game is there was no reason to try and be in first until the very end of the race (and flaw in every title in the series, I'm sure). After thousands of races with my friends the general strategy was that everyone tried to lag behind in 4th place until the first row of items so they could get something like the star or the blue shell.
The blue shell might not be particularly useful when you're super far behind but if 4th place means you're only about five or six kart lengths behind 1st than it's a game changer. It's even better when you have the blue shell in 1st place because it guarantees no one is going to be hitting you with a blue shell.
The absolute best item in that game, however, was the star.
I played Co-op SSE and it was still quite a snooze fest for both me and the person I was playing with. It's paced horribly with two players, on top of the already intentionally slowed down characters.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
They said that on brawl dojo but I always thought it was an excuse for them to not put animal crossing in the smash.
The break the targets complaints are always interesting to me. I do understand being upset that they aren't catered to the character's specific quirks anymore, but having fewer of them was almost necessary with the roster hitting the high 30s. I didn't really think that they were popular enough to be such a common complaint.
I don't care whatsoever about playing Smash competitively, but with that in mind I still despised tripping, the universal target stages instead of character specific ones, and items in general were just too powerful. I played with them on in Melee, but had to turn some off in Brawl.
I still enjoyed Brawl a hell of a lot, but played Melee a lot more in the end.
I still enjoyed Brawl a hell of a lot, but played Melee a lot more in the end.
Polioliolio
Member
Just load it up with content, keep it fair, keep some of the wackiness, but not in the vein of blue shell.
That Kirby's Air Ride item in brawl. Trying to keep everyone from getting all three parts is fun, but when I actually achieve it, I feel like it's a cheap kill and refuse to use it KO-ing a person with 0% damage doesn't feel good, especially since all I do is aim and press a button.
Smash Ball on the other hand doesn't always guarantee a KO, can be avoided, and can also be beaten out of a player... It feels a little more fair for some reason, and I like the occasional threat of a big attack. Power Stone anyone?
That Kirby's Air Ride item in brawl. Trying to keep everyone from getting all three parts is fun, but when I actually achieve it, I feel like it's a cheap kill and refuse to use it KO-ing a person with 0% damage doesn't feel good, especially since all I do is aim and press a button.
Smash Ball on the other hand doesn't always guarantee a KO, can be avoided, and can also be beaten out of a player... It feels a little more fair for some reason, and I like the occasional threat of a big attack. Power Stone anyone?
People who played SSBM LOVED setting records with each character for many years. They were a great alternative way of competition and having only 5 stages dependent on difficulty made things way less interesting (especially with items being laid out in each level). It lowered the competitiveness of it because the unique Break the Targets of SSB64 and SSBM required you to learn the character quirks and figure out really awesome strats to get the best times.
Some examples:
Compilation of them
World Records of 2011
You can find even more, including SSB64 records, on youtube. They were leagues better than the 5 levels in SSBB.
Hell, even Home Run Contest is way better in Melee than it is in Brawl.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Whoops, lol. I meant to quote you, I'm not sure what happened there.
No, that was definitely Brawl too.
Smash bawl should be a combination of the two, or at least spawn way less often (especially if it's the only item you put on). I usually have to turn on a bunch of junk items like barrels, smoke bombs, food, to make sure it doesnt spawn that often, but it still seems like it's always present, and it changes the game dynamic from 'fight eachother' to 'fight over the one item'
The Smash Ball is very character specific. Ideally it would be designed so the final smash of a character that can easily break it is weaker than someone who can rarely hit it, but that would be pretty hard. Still, someone like Sonic can get multiple guaranteed kills with it, while others at best only focus on one character.
I do like them overall, though. Zany fun. I disliked how when the Dragoon pieces spawned it meant a smash ball would never appear.
Polioliolio
Member
Yeah I agree with you on that. Lose the air ride one hit kill item and make the smash ball be made up of three little pieces..
I also think it's way too frequent. If you play a game with a mere 3 stock with a few players, you'll probably see that Smash Ball 3 times. Wish there was a frequency slider per item.
Red Arremer
Member
Coincidence that I actually asked to clarify, lmao.
My avie is Bio Rex's profile art from F-Zero GP Legend.
I would've gone with his N64 art, but I didn't find a high quality version of it.
Shadow Hog
Member
It never dawned on me how many of those Break the Target stages were so directly inspired by the games the characters came from. I mean, I noticed it to an extent, but it seems like practically every character's stage looks like it could fit into their series without much issue - and since I played Melee well before playing most of the series represented, I never clued in to it going beyond a few characters.
Man, now I really want Break the Targets to come back properly.
Man, now I really want Break the Targets to come back properly.
Red Arremer
Member
Edit: Nm. >-<
Jawmuncher
Member
Sometimes I wish Brawl would've been better received by the more "pro" players. Obivously with tripping, slower speed, and everything else that wasn't going to happen though. Just the game is so much fun and personally I think is a good bridge game to get better at smash. I sucked terribly at melee especially agaisn't people who've been playing a while. But playing Brawl and going back to melee made it a much easier battlefield.
NeonZ
Member
Huh... This is what Sakurai said about it:
So, yes, it was about Brawl.
Yeah, that's why I excluded SSE (and target tests). I don't think Co-op would address any issues with those in Brawl if you dislike them. However, what about everything else, like the Co-op events?
Do people really believe this? I've never actually seen or heard of the whole Fox/Marth/No items/Final Destination in reality. No items is definitely true, but Final Destination is definitely not that popular a stage, nor are Fox and Marth from what I watched. There's a pretty good variety of characters in tournament play.
I think Smash bros. is an incredible unique and fun fighting game, items aside. And players have and can adapt to items, there is some really rad and bizarre tech surrounding them. But ultimately when an item drops at your feet you've got a huge advantage. Doesn't matter what the item is--throwing it is just so powerful.
Shadow Hog
Member
Final Destination was definitely prevalent in online play, based on my little brother playing it online a few years ago. He was complaining that almost every round was on it, even.
So even if the competitive players don't play on it much, the meme has led to a lot of competitive... uh, poseurs, for lack of a better word, to try and play it to the letter.
So even if the competitive players don't play on it much, the meme has led to a lot of competitive... uh, poseurs, for lack of a better word, to try and play it to the letter.
Professor Beef
Banned
Thanks for calling me a prick, btw. Really appreciate it.