In hardware generation it is not several. It is only 1.
I'm talking specifically about hardware capability and so were the devs that said it.
WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
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In hardware generation it is not several. It is only 1.
I'm talking specifically about hardware capability and so were the devs that said it.
So you mean several Direct X version revision equivalent 'generations'. That's a pretty convoluted definition of 'generation'.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of frame rates and resolutions are we seeing on multiplatform games?
Apophis2036
Banned
The experienced dev was someone from Shin'en was it not ?, a company that have only ever made Nintendo games...
I take your points about the console, I have already said several times that it has double the RAM, more eDRAM and a more modern GPU which shows off improved DOF, fire effects ect. Why exactly are you repeating to me what I have already said not two posts ago ?.
At the end of the day it's what's shown on screen that matters and I just don't see anything more than a tiny leap from the mid range PS360 games, nevermind the big budget games.
You seem to be proclaiming '1080p this, solid framerate that' yet you are talking about unreleased games that are 9 - 18 months away from being released in some cases (MK8, Bayo 2, Smash, X) and even then three out of four of those will be 720p.
megabytecr
Member
Man this thread is giving me a headache.
IMO Wii U is ahead of PS360, but how much is so so so difficult to determine based on the very little information we have.
Because of the very little info we have focused on the games shown so far and this is where this thread goes to shit, because it is going to be very very subjective and will go based on the eye of the beholder. This is why I think I find fighting back and forth very silly. Everyone can give their opinion, and we should leave it at that i think.
Also I find it funny how development tools, cross gen development, diminishing returns cannot be used on Wii U, but it sure can be used for PS4 and XB1. Also if a game happens to have performance issues people just grab that without any context to pull in favor of how they think, without analyzing all the factors.
We have many factors to consider in Multiplat development
1. We are at a cross gen stage. Do you think devs are going to build assets only for the next gen consoles including Wii U?
2. Wii U is not selling well and other systems are not out yet: it is logical to think that Wii U ports are not getting any considerable budgets considering how it is selling.
3. Nintendo is new to HD development.
4. Wii U architecture and strengths do not match those of the 8 year old hardware, it needs some optimizations and it seems that not all devs have the time to optimize everything how they would like.
I though, find it very strange how in very little time a team at Criterion pulled off what they did with NFSMWU. Do they have knowledge other teams are missing, this is very interesting to me to find out.
I thought from the early ports AC3 and Black Ops 2 to be good. So it goes without saying that I have some faith in AC4, WD and CoD Ghosts.
IMO Wii U is ahead of PS360, but how much is so so so difficult to determine based on the very little information we have.
Because of the very little info we have focused on the games shown so far and this is where this thread goes to shit, because it is going to be very very subjective and will go based on the eye of the beholder. This is why I think I find fighting back and forth very silly. Everyone can give their opinion, and we should leave it at that i think.
Also I find it funny how development tools, cross gen development, diminishing returns cannot be used on Wii U, but it sure can be used for PS4 and XB1. Also if a game happens to have performance issues people just grab that without any context to pull in favor of how they think, without analyzing all the factors.
We have many factors to consider in Multiplat development
1. We are at a cross gen stage. Do you think devs are going to build assets only for the next gen consoles including Wii U?
2. Wii U is not selling well and other systems are not out yet: it is logical to think that Wii U ports are not getting any considerable budgets considering how it is selling.
3. Nintendo is new to HD development.
4. Wii U architecture and strengths do not match those of the 8 year old hardware, it needs some optimizations and it seems that not all devs have the time to optimize everything how they would like.
I though, find it very strange how in very little time a team at Criterion pulled off what they did with NFSMWU. Do they have knowledge other teams are missing, this is very interesting to me to find out.
I thought from the early ports AC3 and Black Ops 2 to be good. So it goes without saying that I have some faith in AC4, WD and CoD Ghosts.
so.. what you are saying is we have to judge it RIGHT NOW on games released THIS MINUTE on ports that most definitely are financially constrained and probably have to lag main development of the game as not the same team (on quite different architecture, and still hold up quite well), not when mature practices have developed and mature tools. if this is your narrow criteria for assessment, then i think you are in the wrong thread, or need to give up.
Edit: You know the firm speculation of what the GPU is based on, you know what 360 is based on, go look up how many generations between. maybe commit to a definition of generation (console vs gpu). alsoEdit: and then you try imply shin'en dont know much because they work only on nintendo hardware, give them a little more respect for the sheer skills and knowledge that team have. Theyll know where a gpu sits.
Apophis2036
Banned
I'm not talking about ports tbh, I'm talking about the big four people seem to be proclaiming are massive leaps over PS360 games (MK8, Smash U, Bayonetta 2 and X), even although it's not been confirmed what resolution or frame rate some of these games are running at.
As for Shin'en, I wouldn't take their word on if the WiiU's GPU is 'several generations ahead of PS360's GPU' unless they had worked on PS360's GPU and going on their wiki page (I could be wrong) they have only ever developed for Nintendo systems.
The WiiU's GPU is certainly several generations ahead of the Wii's GPU, of that there is no doubt.
megabytecr
Member
I thought most were well known
I made this thread long ago to try to keep up with all the next gen games info on performance (with as many sources as possible), it died, lol
www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596571
MK8 720p60
SSB 1080p60
Bayo 2 720p60 (solid 60 BTW)
W101 720p60
Pikmin 3 720p30
DKCR TF 720p60
SM3DWorld 720p60
Sonic Lost World 720p60
Rayman Legends 1080p60
TLoZWWHD is 1080p30
X is unknown probably will be 720p30
I find a good point about not a lot of PS360 games reaching native 720p, that is ignored by must people.
Got it. So how come we are allowed to proclaim that something isn't a few generations ahead when (probably) none of us have developed on either system? This doesn't seem like a good argument to me.
Because it would sap the life out of their arguments. Too many people even in pc space think that resolution or fps is easy when we have benchmarks across a wide spectrum of gpus to show otherwise.
I
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
eh? what proof do you have to discredit them?
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
All the good looking PS3/360 games are 720p. God of War, Gears of War 3/Judgement, Uncharted 2/3, Froza 3/4/Horizon, GT5(this one is higher than 720p actually), Killzone2/3, TLoU ect. All the games worth mentioning from a graphical perspective run at 720p. According to Beyond 3d, the 720 p games outnumber the sub hd games.
Forsaken82
Member
LBP Karting likely did not have a high budget (but it wouldn't surprise me to see it comparable to MK8), but I would be willing to bet PS All Stars budget is higher than every Nintendo Developed Wii U title.
With that said, You are crazy to think that any of these Nintendo titles have these ridiculous budgets that make them outshine lesser current gen titles. Not to mention, aren't you one of the people trying to use GTAV looking superior to X when GTAV's budget is likely 5 times that of X?
Whatever the devs are willing optimize for(see Godfather, Red Dead Redemption and Skyrim for the PS3 for reference). The frame rates and res should roughly be the same.
A port will more than likely always run best on the hardware that was the lead platform unless it is being released as an enhanced version like Oboro Muramasa and Little King Story on the Vita.
Frame rates and resolution will always remain limited to what they were on the lead platform with all other versions likely having issues. To do otherswise would require making a "from the ground up" version of the game for every console which would increase the cost 1 times the number platforms the game is being made for.
So I must ask you. How many multiplatform games use the Wii U as the lead development platform?
Apophis2036
Banned
I strongly disagree with the bolded.
No, I have never commented on the GTA V subject, I think it's stupid myself as the games are going for totally different types of experiences.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
If you look at a few x86-64 floorplans, the frontend is anything between 10% and 25% - the smaller the CPU, the greater the frontend portion. Even today the x86 frontend is not insignificant.
Apophis2036
Banned
This disinformation is almost always spouted by Nintendo fans to try and downplay PS360's graphical achievements.
There are a lot of multi platform games that run at sub HD but as you say most of the graphically impressive first party PS360 games are 720p native.
GameGuru59
Banned
This system is the Dreamcast of this generation. If you took all of the N64's best looking games (all of which ran below 480i, at 240i), ported them to Dreamcast, added some geometry, and gave them a decent retexture, the Dreamcast would run them 60fps at 480i. It couldn't go too much farther beyond that however, and never came close to the PS2's capabilities.
The Wii U will be the same in comparison to the PS3/360 and PS4/Xbone. 360 era graphics will run very well on it, but games developed to max out the PS4's spec would be a mighty lift for the system. The main difference this time is that the graphics pipeline is more or less settled on today (where it wasn't for DC/PS2/GC/Xbox). Wii U will have the same capabilities as the PS4 and Xbone, but the new HD twins will simply be able to do alot more of the same stuff. Diminishing returns, exploding development budgets, and the shocking rise of indies on consoles will work in the Wii U's favor in terms of keeping up with the twins, however.
megabytecr
Member
I find it funny how you label freely people on the thread, but when you are the target you are rather quick to point it out. I am a fan of games, I own 3DS, Wii U, PC and PS3.
And all of those are 1st party and had big budgets, I bet most sub hd games were Multiplats.
The ones I listed for Wii U, most run at 60fps, even with Nintendo coming to gripes with HD development.
Apophis2036
Banned
I don't need proof, they have never worked on PS360 as far as I know so how would they know how WiiU's GPU compares to PS360's GPU's ?.
If that statement came from Ubisoft or the like I would take it seriously and actually be impressed.
Do you have anything to substantiate this claim or the hardware limits?
he was making an analogy on the games, dont need to be anal about it.
Apophis2036
Banned
Either that or the first party developers knew how to harness the power of their platforms better than third parties.
And yes the games that ran at sub HD were multiplats, it says so in my post... Also a lot more multiplats targeted 60fps (racing, sport, hack and slash) so the resolution had to be dropped.
Well, I guess from my perspective, if the GPU is so much better, shouldn't we be seeing improved resolution, or possibly framerate?
Even if your game is CPU limited, bottlenecking framerate, why not increase the resolution if the GPU has headroom? (I'm thinking out loud here - maybe limitations fitting the framebuffer in the embedded memory? If that's the case then it will be hard for a native WiiU game to hit higher resolutions too...)
If the game is not CPU limited shouldn't it be trivial to get a higher framerate at the same resolution? (Maybe there aren't many games that aren't CPU limited...at least not enough to run at 60 vs 30...)
I guess I'm really asking for evidence that the GPU is significantly better than current gen - honestly have not seen anything to prove that point.
For example, if the GPU was clearly better, I would have thought they would have been able to get COD:BO2 to run at a higher resolution than the current generation games... (apparently it runs at 880x720 like the Xbox version: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-black-ops-2-wii-u-face-off)
well shin'ens rep is good enough for the rest of us, xenos is pretty well documented so theyll know how they stack up - they also probably play games sometimes and can just see >.>. as i said this thing is actually pretty measurable. go look up the wiiu's based gpu and the 360's, count generations between (I've not actually done this as a note).
GameGuru59
Banned
I think there's ample clarity that the Wii U is clearly not as powerful as the PS4 and Xbone, but far more powerful than the PS3 and 360. It is in between console generations in power. The cold, hard facts we know about RAM alone substantiate this. Not having an HDD isn't going to help with texture streaming either, making the RAM deficit that much more pronounced. Barring some outrageous, N64 level hardware design oversight by both MS and Sony, the Wii U won't be able to compete with big budget titles developed for those systems. I think at this point we're debating precisely what level of graphic power the Wii U has (at least that's what I am). It's clear what the general range of its capabilities are.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Although many of though games have obvious technical drawbacks, like HALO 4 not having the scale of Reach, or Gears of War having issues rendering normals on characters. Uncharted series being limited in scale. Even GOD of War is limited in scale. And neither one is 60fps or maintain a solid 30.
Bayo 2 does a solid 60, you don't have to take the word of people that have played the game at this years E3.
I'm going to get dogpiled here but at least you could see PS1 ports running at 480p and 60Hz when the Dreamcast launched. IMHO if the Dreamcast were redesigned to be as much of a jump over the previous gen as the WiiU seems to be a jump over current gen, the Dreamcast would have been about as powerful as the N64.
phosphor112
Banned
That's not true at all.
shakin_haitian
Banned
I'm going to get a bag of popcorn and watch as you try and explain this.
megabytecr
Member
Yes, thanks for pointing it out, others did already.
Most were first party games and most were 30fps with framerate dips. Wii U has first year games or game builds running fine @ 720p60, some 1080p30 and others 1080p60 like SSB and Rayman Legends. Most are running or will run with more advanced effects than PS360 games.
Note: I don't care at all about the Dreamcast, N64 or any other old console, just the Wii U.
What's the controversy? Do you disagree that on the whole, the N64 was more powerful than the PS1/Saturn? It could produce better results if coaxed but it was hamstrung by some of its hardware decisions (small texture cache, limited cartridge space, no sound coprocessor) so in the end it wasn't a giant leap over the PS1/Saturn.
Dude, did you really just implied that comparing two cart-racing games, and two 4-player 'all-stars' fighting games is as ridiculous as comparing a comic-inspired action arcade game to a 'AAA' FPS on a console we all agree is - in theory - many times more powerful? WTF! As if, this thread wasn't derailed enough, at which point did this further derailment even looked like 'valid reasoning?' I mean...guy, damn!
Edit: On that note, I think I'll just avoid posting in this thread until it gets back on track. This sh!t is ridiculous.
phosphor112
Banned
No, someone else posted the plane gif and the other one. Then people said that X was more impressive because that gifs had smog/atmospheric haze in it blocking the draw distance. So I posted gifs showing, that while the scope of X is a lot larger, the environments and content is undoubtedly greater than what is in X. I also said the comparison of draw distance alone was stupid.
Another thing, all rendered lights are drawn at no matter the distance.
Also, the budget is likely much higher than just "5x" difference.
No, MOST were 3rd party games. And MOST 3rd party games were at least 720p.
It's no doubt the Wii U is more powerful. Trying to get so many high fidelity games at 720p at 30fps even with developed toolkits would be too difficult for PS360. I just wanted to point out your claims of the sub-hd resolution on most current games are false.
EDIT: Wanted to point out the shader capabilities of the Wii U are far more impressive than the current gen systems.
megabytecr
Member
Just took a quick look at the Beyond 3D list Here and you are right seems like a guesstimate of about 25%-30% run sub hd. My bad took what others said as fact without checking the source.
GameGuru59
Banned
I'm pretty sure you're giving DC too much credit lol.
Second, Nintendo locked down developers to use high precision geometry on the N64, limiting the polycount of its games greatly (see Wikipedia). Only Factor 5 and Rare were allowed to use the N64's full rendering power at the end of it's life (which is why CBFD, and Factor 5's titles look so much better than other N64 games).
Finally, the DC came out the gate with more advanced features beyond the N64 (a console based in 1994-5 technology) that had been added to the standard graphics pipe by the time the DC came out. The PS4 and Xbone aren't adding much that is fundamentally different from the methods the 360 and PS3 use to render graphics. The 360 even had tessellation (and I think Cell could manage it too). They just all the same stuff more efficiently. The only fundamental thing you could say they add is GPU computing, but I doubt that feature will see much use.
ArchangelWest
Member
Not that many would agree with me, but I don't think that there is or will be a massive leap with PS4/Xbox one, let alone one with Wii U. Games look noticeably better, but not all that much in most cases because games already look very good on PS360. From here on out, for the foreseeable future at least, 'looking better' will consist of how many enemies on screen at once, how many effects used at once, and modern GPU features being used in general.
Games look better, but to the average Joe, there is no leap. Especially not one worth $300/$400/$500 respectively.
Rushersauce
Banned
They use dynamic resolution, boy.....
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Uncharted 2 wasn't necessarily "big budget", I doubt forza horizon was either. Hell the fable remake on 260(using unreal engine 3) runs at 1080p apparently, looks great too.
Which ones? I don't ever remember UC2/3, KZ2/3, Gears3/J, Forza3/4/H ever dropping below 720.
Well actually it kinda is, a lot of PS360 games run below native 720p, and scale up. Though to be fair, a lot of PS360 launch games were pushing 1080p, and were native 720p, more so than currently.
phosphor112
Banned
That claim has been proven otherwise.
A lot of games later on did because they ended up sacrificing resolution for special effects.
None of those do.
Rushersauce
Banned
You don't remember, because you didn't notice...
ArchangelWest
Member
You do realize that in spite of choosing to make Nintendo games, Shin'en is known for helping other companies optimize their engines when consulted right? Those guys are old school, with thick roots in 80's PC gaming but have stayed on the cutting edge as far as knowledge goes. It's not only unfair, but rather silly to discount their opinions when it comes to gaming tech.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Which ones on my list drops below 720? I want to look it up on digital foundry.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Let's not forget that a lot of game development moved to deffered rendering. Its drawback is it eats up bandwidth.
Rushersauce
Banned
Jesus, my mind is playing with me... I really thought that I read somewhere about that. My bad, you're right.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
It's cool.
Apophis2036
Banned
So now Halo, Gears and Uncharted aren't impressive because they don't run at 60fps ?... wow, just wow.
This thread really is unreal, if you post in here and say anything other than 'WiiU games don't look impressive because of small budgets / unfinished dev kits / unfinished dev tools / third parties dont care ect, ect' you are swarmed by the same four or five people who still care enough to post.
Instead of swarming on people who dare to have a different opinion to this why don't you ask yourself why PS360 games run at a lower resolution and framerate on WiiU than 8 year old hardware ?.
Why Wii up ports like MH3U can only hit 45fps max while running at 1080p ?.
Why several companies refuse to call the WiiU a next gen system ?.
Why several publishers have dropped support because the consoles hardware is not powerful enough to support the latest engines (Frostbite 3) ?.
Why the big Winter 3D Mario is a 3DS up port in all but name ?.
Why Retro are making a 2D platformer that could have ran on Wii instead of an impressive looking tech showcase for the system ?.
WiiU was NEVER intended to be anything more than a tiny upgrade to PS360 while adding the Tablet controller for 'innovation' IMO and nothing show for the console so far has done anything to change my view.
phosphor112
Banned
Edit: Already taken care of, it seems.
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