No you're right it doesn't nullify them. But it isn't as big a problem as there not being roles for them on offer. Get that corrected first. Then work on the smaller stuff. And trust me here, hyper sexualism IS the smaller stuff.
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RPS ambushes Blizzard director for objectification of women in Heroes of the Storm
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No you're right it doesn't nullify them. But it isn't as big a problem as there not being roles for them on offer. Get that corrected first. Then work on the smaller stuff. And trust me here, hyper sexualism IS the smaller stuff.
I don't mind that the question is being asked. But its being asked in the most painfully opaque and hamfisted way. It is about farming clicks, because the writer is being very sensationalist. "My eyes are welling up with tears as I type this". Get out of here you absolute joker.
Don't use a tactic. Don't start wringing your hands and coming off as preachy. There's a way and means of getting your point over and you'll get a lot more people to agree with you if you don't try and take some sort of moral high ground. Present facts, show screenshots, and talk about games that gets things right. If the object of the piece is to convince someone of something (and this is the case here) thats how you'll win over hearts and minds. You won't do it with some sorry ass tale of you crying into a pity bowl.
LightofRohan
Member
I've been finding it interesting lately with how a lot of countries there are woman fighting for the right to wear what they want and be as revealing as they want. Yet we have people in this society fighting for woman to cover up and not show as much. It's all so weird...
And I have a lot of feminist friends and they always are arguing for this "freedom"? Yet they are the most radically dressed, different, vocal people and they live in Hollywood. I think you won already...
jakonovski
Member
I'm gonna soapbox a bit before I have to leave, because something occurred to me while I was showering.
What gets me about sexism in games is kind of specific. I have no problem with stuff like Dragon's Crown or Witcher because those games are straight up telling me that hey why don't we perv it up a bit in this game. We are sexual creatures and there's nothing wrong with getting it on a bit if all parties consent.
The bad part are all these games that have a completely asexual theme, but feel the need to include stuff like randomly skimpy outfits, camera pans to females' asses and characterizations that amount to some kind of a retarded damsel in distress thing.
What gets me about sexism in games is kind of specific. I have no problem with stuff like Dragon's Crown or Witcher because those games are straight up telling me that hey why don't we perv it up a bit in this game. We are sexual creatures and there's nothing wrong with getting it on a bit if all parties consent.
The bad part are all these games that have a completely asexual theme, but feel the need to include stuff like randomly skimpy outfits, camera pans to females' asses and characterizations that amount to some kind of a retarded damsel in distress thing.
Welcome to new gaming media. It's getting pretty tiresome - at the end of the day companies have a duty to make games that sell. Sex sells, as it always has and always will.
Clearly a male powerfantasy
Haven't seen any complaints.
Lowlander2
Banned
MOBAs outside of DOTA2 are probably one of the biggest genres where aesthetic choices are in need of an overhaul the most, and as Rowan Kaiser said, MOBAs sell themselves, quite literally, on extra characters. That they didn't expect questions of this nature, especially in the cultural shift gaming is currently undergoing, is either a lie or shows how willfully ignorant Blizzard are.
THAT
SAID
That RPS was surprised they were cut off like that is also either a lie or shows how willfully ignorant they are. Being blunt can work, but being flippant in a situation where both parties obviously decided not to bow has very clearly led to a stalemate situation. With no compromise, with the two just butting heads now, nothing will change.
You know, I feel like I've said this before. A lot.
It's indeed a journo's job to ask the hard questions, but you at least have to make sure you get some fucking answers lest it be pointless.
THAT
SAID
That RPS was surprised they were cut off like that is also either a lie or shows how willfully ignorant they are. Being blunt can work, but being flippant in a situation where both parties obviously decided not to bow has very clearly led to a stalemate situation. With no compromise, with the two just butting heads now, nothing will change.
You know, I feel like I've said this before. A lot.
It's indeed a journo's job to ask the hard questions, but you at least have to make sure you get some fucking answers lest it be pointless.
CecilRousso
Member
Do you have the same understanding for everything else game companies needs to do to sell games - loads of DLC, simplified gameplay, dudebro stories, tacked on multiplayer, DRM, etc?
ElectricBlue187
Member
Wow misogyny, let's just keep using that word until it means nothing whatsoever.
Too late, it's meaning has been lost for a long, long time.
This ^^^
Jathaine
Member
Clearly a male powerfantasy
I know you're joking but I really do love how so many people use this to hand-wave any and every example of males getting the exact same treatment but just not giving a damn.
If they start putting more stuff like that into games, it certainly won't make much difference to me. I wonder how many of us may start to care though. I'm thinking the number would still be pretty small.
What is the equivalent female power fantasy? Serious question.
Making video games should be fun. I would be so disheartened if me and my team worked on a great game loved by millions only to have some people claim that we are somehow morally responsible for upholding certain values or keeping the balance in society. It's a goddamn video game that we made for people to enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, do something else.
I think WoW / Blizzard is equaly exagerating the sexulaisation for both genders. So where does the controversy come from? Its always like people get raging when a female is diplayed in such a way but there was an equal amount of hyper sexualized men at the same time and nobody seems to care about it.
Well Dota 2 borrows heavily from Blizzard art but its a good example:
ummmm.. if games sexualized males, the characters would look more like this:
Not some fat-nosed meat-head monster with a receding hairline
I dislike playing Orcs because I don't like their physique, which is the same argument you're making for women who dislike the smaller female models in the game. I don't think anyone would argue that the female Tauren or Pandaren makes women appear to be 'sexual objects'. There are alternatives for me with my taste, and there are alternative body types available for women who like playing larger characters.
I did try to look into her and any other female writers they may have on staff - but all I see on their site is "a brief profile of the manly writers of Rock, Paper, Shotgun. Enjoy." (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/about/) They're clearly very proud of being manly. Can you please point out where I should read Cara's profile on their site? Is she on their staff? Because otherwise I don't see your point, were there no qualified women available for any of their five primary positions? I'm sure they have excuses why they are perpetrating the "boys club" though, probably equally shallow as the responses they got from Blizzard.
What's that mean? You think Blizzard doesn't have PR talking points for their games? There was a PR handler sitting right there for crying out loud.
Blizzard guy is an adult and he should be able to handle himself. Again, if it's such a stupid question, it should be easy to diffuse. But instead of engaging with a topic that is popular right now in our industry, his PR handler silences him and the interview ends. Pathetic.
To answer your question no, other mediums do not get a pass.
On the outside chance I'm not just being concern-trolled here, she's a guest writer who has readily accessible pieces on the site. They have and have had male guest writers similarly contribute without a slot on the about us page. Ze gasp. Keep digging for controversy.
ummmm.. if games sexualized males, the characters would look more like this:
Not some fat-nosed meat-head monster with a receding hairline
I guess Blood Elves maybe. They are the most attractive males in WoW.
But I'm a straight male so I don't know, but they are just the least gross looking.
Maybe they would be more attractive to females if Blizzard didn't buff they up like they did, and used the old models.
I guess Blood Elves maybe. They are the most attractive males in WoW.
But I'm a straight male so I don't know, but they are just the least gross looking.
Maybe they would be more attractive to females if Blizzard didn't buff they up like they did, and used the old models.
Keep in mind that, typically, male armor still covers up the player model a lot more than it does with female player models. Because that big armor looks friggin' cool and Blizzard has zero concern with making the males sexually attractive.
It's nice to see some real journalism from time to time.
Good work RPS.
And Disney Princesses have a huge female following too. It's not that simple.
Good work RPS.
And Disney Princesses have a huge female following too. It's not that simple.
I'd imagine closer to the left than the right.
Huh? If anything the female character on the upper left is more sexualized. Even wearing a bra.
To be fair, the bottom right character does look female. Female character having female sexual organs. Stop the presses.
You're drawing a weird dividing line between the four main guys and the guest writers that doesn't really bear out: guest writers contribute less and often guest write for other sites in addition, that's the only significant difference. Same prominence granted to their work as any of the aforementioned four.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
ummmm.. if games sexualized males, the characters would look more like this:
Not some fat-nosed meat-head monster with a receding hairline
Wouldn't Dante count, Either version, though Japanese sexual male characters about as much as they do females, hence the number of pretty boys white haired pretty boys, and all the yaoi stuff.
Outside of the size of the shoulders, most armor is the same for males and females.
And transmog exists, so you can run around wearing something like this if you really want.
I don't think it's weird at all, it's their staff and one that the site has total control over. I'm also counting five main guys, not four. For a site that rails against the "gaming boys club", they don't have a single woman featured on their staff and self-promote how "manly" their writers are. Not a single qualified woman out there, perhaps even a lesser known writer trying to make a name for herself, would appreciate the publicity that comes along with being a full-time, featured staff member for a site that gets a decent amount of traffic? Instead of complaining about Blizzard's art, maybe they should do a bit more themselves to bust up the exclusive club.
Sigh. Feel free to believe that one of the most woman-friendly outlets (that you hardly know a thing about) out there is secretly a boys-only club keeping them down, but anyone who actually reads the site knows better. Tortured logic isn't a substitute for knowing what you're talking about.
I always find these sorts of arguments a bit strange.
Even if you are correct it does absolutely nothing to disprove anything they've said. Granting both sets of arguments, the rational response would be that both Blizzard and RPS could do more to promote gender balance.
I don't doubt at all that they ask hard questions on the subject (granted, they came off as extremely combative in the interview from the start), and provide a platform for female guest writers. But that's no substitute for doing even more by opening up full-time roles. The staff profiles are there for anyone to see, it's their staff make-up and it speaks for itself. Just like Blizzard has lots of women on their staff and a female character with poor clothing attire in a game doesn't change the good that they've done either.
I think 99% of the community could do more, but I think that even more important than art direction is actually getting women in positions to influence game design from within studios and media outlets. I'm fine that RPS is asking the questions, but at the same time they should be prepared to demonstrate that they're doing everything in their power to fight the "boys club" if that's going to be their approach. Just asking the questions doesn't make them above being asked the same thing themselves.
Wow does make hypersexualized characters based on how their itemization works. But you have a point that women want to look pretty in game. Let's not pretend though that that their item choices are made mostly to be sexually stimulating to men to the nth degree.
SteveWinwood
Member
generalized statement ahead
mostly twenty something or younger males raised on a medium that objectifies women don't see a problem objectifying women in that medium
shocking
mostly twenty something or younger males raised on a medium that objectifies women don't see a problem objectifying women in that medium
shocking
Outside of some vanilla wow pieces from 9 years ago, and a handful of pieces here and there since then, there is not a lot of player armor that I would consider hypersexualized.
Gotta appeal to your customers; on non-PVP servers WoW had a tremendous faction imbalance (especially on RP servers), favoring the alliance. I believe things changed dramatically when Blood Elves were added to the horde. Given that WoW had like a 50:50 male-to-female ratio I'd likely assume that on average, dudes want to play slabs of beef, and women want to play things that are pretty (and anecdotally, it's what I've experienced). I'm sure you can read something into that, but I don't know how reasonable it is to expect Blizzard to challenge this status quo.
The dimorphism doesn't make sense, but neither does Orgrimmar having like one pig farm to support its entire population.
I'll reiterate that I think WoW is the wrong game to pick on. Unless I'm mistaken, the issues people have been having is that games aren't inclusive towards women, and one way that manifests is by overtly sexualizing female characters. One problem WoW hasn't had is getting women to play it.
SneakyStephan
Banned
So if it's a muscular man it's a power fantasy but if it's a fit boobage lady with lush hair it's sexualised?
What about nathan drake then who is clearly designed to copy young harrison ford indiana jones or cole or all the other young men with supermodel pecs and faces
99 percent of videogames show the male characters living up to some genetically unattainable standard (and high fitness standard too) with bulging crotches
It's not that the female characters aren't oversexualised, but the male ones always have been too, videogames are a fantasy.
TV and advertising have made regular people feel ugly since forever, you can't go one tv show episode without some glistening muscles/rugged handsome stubble or a gratuitous ass/hip shot
There's some games that clearly go specifically for the hormones angle (dead or alive) but idk why people make a stink about all the other games suddenly.
I'd be more worried about the torture and violence porn trend in modern games, that HAS changed
Also rps picking on blizzard for this is stupid, as much as I dislike blizzard THEY of all devs supposedly overdo it?
They didn't see the tauren design? female orcs? the hunched female undead with saggy breasts? the human females which I remember were always praised for looking more like a real woman (bigger hips and thicker legs in a time where the ideal was some railthin childlike supermodel)
ummmm.. if games sexualized males, the characters would look more like this:
Not some fat-nosed meat-head monster with a receding hairline
Not all women prefer thin little boys, I know plenty who prefer muscular men. Generalizing much?
MomoPufflet
Member
I find the Asian MMOs tend to go way further over the top with the T&A than Blizzard these days. Often to the point of just looking completely absurd and distracting (even as a straight male). Blizzard's style is also blockier and more cartoony (in game at least) so it's harder to take it as seriously. They do sexualize their stuff, but not any more than I would expect from the average fantasy trope in this medium. And yeah-- I get that RPS's point was that that should change. But well, while money exists that isn't going to happen. So at least they could have been more civil and less insufferably condescending in their line of questioning. Maybe use some of the time to better explain their point instead of trying to trap the person they're interviewing in the smuggest way humanly possible.
Jim Sterling talked about this before. Playable overpowered males tend to be idealized - you want to be them. The female characters with which they interact are objectified - you want to have them (sexually or otherwise).
That doesn't apply to all cases involved in these discussions but it's an important distinction to make for many of them.
Regarding the above post, these topics keep arising because there's a cognitive dissonance in gaming - some want and expect an industry that is inherently structured around teenage males to be more mature and worthy of being taken seriously. It's just never going to happen for reasons therein.
That doesn't apply to all cases involved in these discussions but it's an important distinction to make for many of them.
Regarding the above post, these topics keep arising because there's a cognitive dissonance in gaming - some want and expect an industry that is inherently structured around teenage males to be more mature and worthy of being taken seriously. It's just never going to happen for reasons therein.
Glass Shark
Banned
It's only "backfiring" within the bubble of privilege.
While women don't want to look like gorgeous goddesses, right? This made up double standard never made and will never make any sense.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The problem is that the targets are arbitrary to the point of randomness. Are these games really the worst offenders out there? And if not, why are they being subjected to criticism for merely following the larger trends within contemporary pop-culture?
Its pure tokenism.
citation needed
Yeah, the message is: "we made this game. We want some of your money."
...find one example of a guy who's as popular as Bieber among the ladies and has a face like that red orc guy. Good luck.
Yikes, I understand that RPS is getting its reputation from but its mostly undeserved, they write an article like this every couple of weeks or so and those are the only ones posted in here, its a highly specialized site which is why only the controversy stuff makes it to the pages of Gaf while that preview about Retro-looking indie adventure games made by some Polish team is mostly ignored.
Browder's comment about not ruining for president is crass and cynical because while its obvious that he doesnt care about being perceived as sexist/misogynist/racist or whatever, the implication here is that people in the industry that are concerned about these issues and try everyday to mend it and learn for it are doing it; not for the advancement of the medium as a whole, but only for the purpose of getting some ultimate benefit.
People like to act that there is nothing wrong with representation of minorities in video games, but saying that people that do it are on it for the dough is fucking bullshit considering how games with female protagonists tend to do historically do or just plain try to hide that they have one.
Browder's comment about not ruining for president is crass and cynical because while its obvious that he doesnt care about being perceived as sexist/misogynist/racist or whatever, the implication here is that people in the industry that are concerned about these issues and try everyday to mend it and learn for it are doing it; not for the advancement of the medium as a whole, but only for the purpose of getting some ultimate benefit.
People like to act that there is nothing wrong with representation of minorities in video games, but saying that people that do it are on it for the dough is fucking bullshit considering how games with female protagonists tend to do historically do or just plain try to hide that they have one.
The interviewer doing a mess of a job, though not as bad when he tried the same thing with CD project over Cyberpunk is something more people will notice.
Having already reached the conclusion that ' this is bad and you should feel bad, so explain' is not asking tough questions and establishing dialogue over an issue.
ummmm.. if games sexualized males, the characters would look more like this:
Not some fat-nosed meat-head monster with a receding hairline
What about a ripped, shirtless character designed off a real life male super model?