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[Fuzzery]

Also, I see you don't even adressed the actual meat of my very basically written post.



How would you call this if not writing or substance?



Expanding on this, I'll quote some blogger that likes to thematically compare Gurren-Lagann to Pixar flicks. The following text I don't agree with completely. but it's very competently explained:



http://transientem.blogspot.com/2007/08/drill-that-will-consume-heavens.html

You can wax metaphysical about this one theme as much as you want, but simply, it doesn't cut it for 27 episodes. I never denied that this show doesn't address this theme well, it does. And so does naruto.

 

[7Th]

duuuuude, if you really think that dialogue is good simply because it pertains to or references themes, you need a serious re-evaluation of taste. Go read some literature, please. (Also, as I said before, the perseverance theme is overcooked and overdone. Haivng basically every fucking thing in the entire show dealing with it, gets really annoying). Btw, in your words, what's the "meaning" of writing, which I don't understand apparently.

I read quite a bit, thank you very much. This dialog is well-written due to good composition, excellent characterization, and being perfectly integrated while ideologically accomplished. Besides, neither of the lines I posted has anything to do with perseverance, believing the primary theme behind the script was “perseverance” is an example of short sightness.

 

[7Th]

You can wax metaphysical about this one theme as much as you want, but simply, it doesn't cut it for 27 episodes.

Hence the storytelling techniques. Instead of preaching, the script takes no absolute stance and keeps an ambiguous enough limitation to be even thought-provoking. It's all done through a subversive yet classical use of moral reversal, clearly shown when awarded values become "unworthy relics of the past" or an enforced stagnation is actually considered as the only path to survival. Not to mention this isn't the "only" theme but rather the "core" theme.

On a related note, you're not providing any argument. At all.

 

[Fuzzery]

I read quite a bit, thank you very much. This dialog is well-written due to good composition, excellent characterization, and being perfectly integrated while ideologically accomplished. Besides, neither of the lines I posted has anything to do with perseverance, believing the primary theme behind the script was “perseverance” is an example of short sightness.

No, the very basic theme IS perseverance, regardless of how much you want to dress it up and make it more "mature" than it actually is.

 

[7Th]

No, the very basic theme IS perseverance, regardless of how much you want to dress it up and make it more "mature" than it actually is.

Human-related "evolution", along with related ideas such as stagnation or mindless progress, is the more basic theme behind the script. The show makes it clear from episode 1.

I'll quote myself again since you apparently fail to read:

The nature of human progress is the core theme. Progress as in moving forward, both the consequences and achievements from such an action. From episode one it was always about "overcoming" the past- the legacy of your ancestors. Kamina's desire was to go beyond those limits determined by the elderly, a glorification of young defiance. The brilliant ambiguity comes when taking into account Kamina's inspiration was no-one other than his father, an ancestor. The DNA symbolism is fulfilled by the storyline itself: the instance of going against your roots while embracing them mimics the double helix.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

yo whats this

 

[Fuzzery]

Human-related "evolution", along with related ideas such as stagnation or mindless progress, is the more basic theme behind the script. The show makes it clear from episode 1.

Um, no, Gainax needed something to connect the characters to the watchers, and thus, they chose determination and perseverance. The human-related "evolution" is merely the medium they chose to convey this universal and very fundamental theme through.

 

[Fuzzery]

Human-related "evolution", along with related ideas such as stagnation or mindless progress, is the more basic theme behind the script. The show makes it clear from episode 1.

I'll quote myself again since you apparently fail to read:

Just because you say it's the theme doesn't make it so, buddy.

Progress is the byproduct of that basic determination.

 

[7Th]

Um, no, Gainax needed something to connect the characters to the watchers, and thus, they chose determination and perseverance. The human-related "evolution" is merely the medium they chose to convey this universal and very fundamental theme through.

Determination and perseverance are merely genre quirks. "Progress”, or the conflict between the past and the future, is the very heart of the storyline, every single plotline or character motivation being related to it.

Just because you say it's the theme doesn't make it so, buddy.

Progress is the byproduct of that basic determination.

Why is the entire show built around this "progress", then? Not to mention "progress" isn't the result of determination but rather from a desire to go against your roots while embracing these roots themselves.

 

[Fuzzery]

Determination and perseverance are merely genre quirks. "Progress”, or the conflict between the past and the future, is the very heart of the storyline, every single plotline or character motivation being related to it.

It's why the show get so bland after while, it's just "arr I have determination to cause change," progress manifests itself, repeat ad naseum.

 

[7Th]

It's why the show get so bland after while, it's just "arr I have determination to cause change," progress manifests itself, repeat ad naseum.

Oversimplification never works. “Progress” in Lagann isn’t a simplistic “for the better” issue, nor it is always manifest as physical advancement per se. For once, the destruction of Kamina’s statue was a representation of “progress”; do you call it a simple result of “determination”? Consequences are dealt with accordingly and the definition of evil isn't clear-cut.

About the basis behind characters' motivations, they come in different shapes: Anti-Spiral’s desire for stagnation or Nia’s initial reluctance at cutting ties with her father.

 

[Fuzzery]

Oversimplification never works. “Progress” in Lagann isn’t a simplistic “for the better” issue, nor it is always manifest as physical advancement per se.

But is IS ultimately a "for the better" issue. Things just keep getting bigger and bigger, enemies get stronger and stronger. Pretty damn good physical manifestation there.

For once, the destruction of Kamina’s statue was a representation of “progress”; do you call it a simple result of “determination”?

It was a simple device, and an easy way to show the discontent of the "people." Yup, definitely a product of their determination for change, by showing their discontent to the government. Anyway, the show doesn't center around them. It centers around the characters who end up being so damn one dimensional.

 

[7Th]

But is IS ultimately a "for the better" issue. Things just keep getting bigger and bigger, enemies get stronger and stronger. Pretty damn good physical manifestation there.

No, progress by itself brings destruction. This was stated through the show both textually and visually.

It was a simple device, and an easy way to show the discontent of the "people." Yup, definitely a product of their determination for change, by showing their discontent to the government. Anyway, the show doesn't center around them. It centers around the characters who end up being so damn one dimensional.

No, it wasn't an easy way to show the discontent of people. It was about Simon and Kamina becoming the worthless past humans are set to go against. A subversion of the original values awarded by the first arc. Not to mention the characters aren’t one dimensional since they’re based over very broad yet substantial ideas and their overall basic psychology may become as indepth as these open concepts.

Hell, even the so hated Nia may be as developed as the symbolism behind her:

It is of my belief it that by the moments the final credits roll Nia remained as the one character with true understanding of the symbolical motif behind the Anti-Spiral motivations. She, a doll who came a long way from a basic, overdone, adorable debut in where she barely knew of ideas such as "human" or "despair".

From a psychological stand-point, we never got a through explanation in the nature of her transformation but it is possible to infeer the situation from her dialogs as the Messenger. Nia's memories remained, but they were meaningless to the accomplishment of her newly found raison d'etre: the task of transforming her race into nothingness. If her personality was kept, if as mere information, in the initial transformation… why wouldn't the knowledge of the Anti-Spirals be still inside her when her awareness kicked in? The subtext of this "gained wisdom" is there: she truly believes living on by the abuse of Spiral Power would be a selfish wish on her side that would only bring forth the Universe towards the feared entropy of reset. She tells Simon, during the battle, to do what he is meant to do: this is her dying wish and as such it is so strong she is willing to sacrifice her own happiness for it.

I can also quote similar writings from the same image board on Kamina, Viral, Kittan, Yoko or Simon if you want me to.

 

[Fuzzery]

No, progress by itself brings destruction. This was stated through the show both textually and visually.



No, it wasn't an easy way to show the discontent of people. It was about Simon and Kamina becoming the worthless past humans are set to going against. A subversion of the original values awarded by the first arc. Not to mention the characters aren’t one dimensional since they’re based over very broad yet substantial ideas and their overall basic psychology may become as indepth as these open concepts.

The only conflicts that the main characters really ever encounter, are the unintended side effects of their mad drive for change.

Btw, if you're seriously arguing that the majority of character's in G-L aren't shallow, simply because of they are "based over ver broad yet substantial ideas," you clearly have no idea what good characterization is, do you? Good characterization is when a character possesses a uniquely complex world view, which manifests itself through the actions and dialogue of said character. The characters in G-L, are too one-dimensional, in that ALL we can see in them is determination to do what is "good" in their POV, whether that manifests itself though a mad desire for change, or through population control or whatever. They really have no other depth to them other than a determination to do "good."

 

[FnordChan]

yo whats this

Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann, the show 7th and Fuzzery are arguing over. It's awesome. Don't let their arguing over the show's thematic elements keep you from watching it.

FnordChan

 

[ilikeme]

ioio

 

[Fuzzery]

Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann, the show 7th and Fuzzery are arguing over. It's awesome. Don't let their arguing over the show's thematic elements keep you from watching it.

FnordChan

I agree, it's definitely entertaining. Just not a masterpiece.

 

[Fuzzery]

It is of my belief it that by the moments the final credits roll Nia remained as the one character with true understanding of the symbolical motif behind the Anti-Spiral motivations. She, a doll who came a long way from a basic, overdone, adorable debut in where she barely knew of ideas such as "human" or "despair".

From a psychological stand-point, we never got a through explanation in the nature of her transformation but it is possible to infeer the situation from her dialogs as the Messenger. Nia's memories remained, but they were meaningless to the accomplishment of her newly found raison d'etre: the task of transforming her race into nothingness. If her personality was kept, if as mere information, in the initial transformation… why wouldn't the knowledge of the Anti-Spirals be still inside her when her awareness kicked in? The subtext of this "gained wisdom" is there: she truly believes living on by the abuse of Spiral Power would be a selfish wish on her side that would only bring forth the Universe towards the feared entropy of reset. She tells Simon, during the battle, to do what he is meant to do: this is her dying wish and as such it is so strong she is willing to sacrifice her own happiness for it.

Do you honestly this believes this shows any depth of character to her at all, past crap anime standards? All that long passage is saying, in flowery souped up metajargon, is: She went from being a doll, to being selfless. It also says NOTHING about the quality of the characterization of Nia in the show.

 

[Crushed]

Ghost in the shell. But you're definitely right, 99% of games/movie/anime are like this

Uh... using Cloverfield and Crysis was my way of showing that the "rule" is just the way that some people like to generalize things based on outwards appearances because of one outstanding trait that catches your eye first. 99% of people are stupid enough to overgeneralize and believe that this rule exists.

 

[7Th]

The only conflicts that the main characters really ever encounter, are the unintended side effects of their mad drive for change.

Btw, if you're seriously arguing that the majority of character's in G-L aren't shallow, simply because of they are "based over ver broad yet substantial ideas," you clearly have no idea what good characterization is, do you? Good characterization is when a character possesses a uniquely complex world view, which manifests itself through the actions and dialogue of said character. The characters in G-L, are too one-dimensional, in that ALL we can see in them is determination to do what is "good" in their POV, whether that manifests itself though a mad desire for change, or through population control or whatever. They really have no other depth to them other than a determination to do "good."

You misunderstood my point. Each character is unique, with very definite speech patterns and dialogs truly representative a personal world vie. I was arguing the fact that theme is so tightly knitted into the script it becomes, to certain degree, the script itself. Like these concepts used as basis the “psychological” motivations are, like the overall writing, simple yet very in-depth. The take on superficial stereotypes is only as a role.

Do you honestly this believes this shows any depth of character to her at all, past crap anime standards? All that long passage is saying, in flowery souped up metajargon, is: She went from being a doll, to being selfless. It also says NOTHING about the quality of the characterization of Nia in the show.

Sure, over-simplification is easy. Shinji went from alienation to acceptance of a harsh society, Nico went from overconfident to acknowledging her own limitations, Youko/Chagum went from childish fear to face her/his responsibility…

Besides, the paragraph wasn’t describing the events of the show but using them to explain her characterization.

On an unrelated note, the use of “determination” as mobile is a pretty lazy argument. Even you are only keeping this debate with me due to your “determination” to prove me wrong.

 

[Prime crotch]

Gurren Lagann probably.
Also recently saw Black Lagoon which was hyped at a lot of places but I gotta say it's just an "ok" show. The action sequences range from meh to cool, but the biggest problem I had was with the script. Specially when they tried to be cool and add pop culture references but they were simply name dropping. And their english accents, lol

 

[Dark Octave]

My girlfriend and I really liked this one, even though this isn't usually the type I watch.

It was pretty funny and it really surprised me. Onsakumaru was my favorite character.

 

[vas_a_morir]

My girlfriend and I really liked this one, even though this isn't usually the type I watch.

It was pretty funny and it really surprised me. Onsakumaru was my favorite character.

How old is that?

 

[Enron]

Page 4 of this thread is absolute hilarity.

Are you SERIOUSLY arguing that G-L is some form of high art? Seriously?

Its "themes" aren't any more highbrow or awesome or mature or whatever than any other mecha anime, really. It's the same shiat.

Writing? What writing? Characters yelling out hot-blooded cliche lines all over the place? BELIEVE IN ME WHO BELIEVES IN YOU WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WHO WAS BELIEVING IN HIS BEST FRIENDS COLLEGE ROOMMATE WHO BELIEVES IN YOU!!!aslkfjlawjf;lsjfl;sdaf whatever. That's writing? Holy christcakes.

_ I _ could freakin' write an episode of Gurren-Lagann. So could most people with at least a 5th-grade education, im sure. Jesus H Christ knows I could come up with a better story, that's for sure.

 

[Crushed]

Writing? What writing? Characters yelling out hot-blooded cliche lines all over the place? BELIEVE IN ME WHO BELIEVES IN YOU WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WHO WAS BELIEVING IN HIS BEST FRIENDS COLLEGE ROOMMATE WHO BELIEVES IN YOU!!!aslkfjlawjf;lsjfl;sdaf whatever.

are you sure you've watched an episode of gurren lagann

are you sure you weren't imagining it in your head

 

[Enron]

are you sure you've watched an episode of gurren lagann

are you sure you weren't imagining it in your head

Oh, I watched plenty of Gurren Lagann. In fact, one might say I watched TOO MUCH of it.

:<

 

[7Th]

Page 4 of this thread is absolute hilarity.

Are you SERIOUSLY arguing that G-L is some form of high art? Seriously?

Its "themes" aren't any more highbrow or awesome or mature or whatever than any other mecha anime, really. It's the same shiat.

Writing? What writing? Characters yelling out hot-blooded cliche lines all over the place? BELIEVE IN ME WHO BELIEVES IN YOU WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WHO WAS BELIEVING IN HIS BEST FRIENDS COLLEGE ROOMMATE WHO BELIEVES IN YOU!!!aslkfjlawjf;lsjfl;sdaf whatever. That's writing? Holy christcakes.

_ I _ could freakin' write an episode of Gurren-Lagann. So could most people with at least a 5th-grade education, im sure. Jesus H Christ knows I could come up with a better story, that's for sure.

"Hi! My name is Enron and I like to make controversial statements without any foundation and then make fun of people while I keep drowning my own reputation."

Oh, I watched plenty of Gurren Lagann. In fact, one might say I watched TOO MUCH of it.

:<

Yet your critisism holds no grounds whatsoever. At least Fuzzery was trying.

 

[Crushed]

Oh, I watched plenty of Gurren Lagann. In fact, one might say I watched TOO MUCH of it.

:<

you watched too much of it yet you characterized it with an over exaggeration of a simple line that was only used a few times in the first half of the show

 

[Enron]

"Hi! My name is Enron and I like to make controversial statements without any foundation and then make fun of people while I keep drowning my own reputation."

Controversial?

"Gurren-Lagann sucks" is controversial?

My opinion about an anime is controversial? Really? Really really? This is what passes for controversial to you? If so, you need to get out of the parent's basement, dude. Its a freakin' cartoon.

Foundation? What foundation? It's an opinion. Where's the foundation for your argument that G-L is some pinnacle of technical and cultural achievement? It's all your opinion dressed up as fact in nifty prose. Just becuz u write gud doesn't make it truth all of a sudden.

Wow.

And lol @ YOU OF ALL PEOPLE telling ME that I am somehow ruining my reputation :lol

No grounds whatsoever my ASS. There is NOTHING in gurren Lagann....art, animation, story, writing, NOTHING that hasn't been done MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better in another mediocre show. NOTHING. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[7Th]

Controversial?

"Gurren-Lagann sucks" is controversial?

My opinion about an anime is controversial? Really? Really really? This is what passes for controversial to you? If so, you need to get out of the parent's basement, dude. Its a freakin' cartoon.

-Controversial: of, relating to, or arousing controversy
-Controversy: a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views

I'll say yes.

Foundation? What foundation? It's an opinion. Where's the foundation for your argument that G-L is some pinnacle of technical and cultural achievement? It's all your opinion dressed up as fact in nifty prose. Just becuz u write gud doesn't make it truth all of a sudden.

No, this is opinion:

Gurren-Lagann is a show with very meaningful substantial content, with a very strong opinion behind. The entire work was based over the delivery of this content.

While this is foundation:

The nature of human progress is the core theme. Progress as in moving forward, both the consequences and achievements from such an action. From episode one it was always about "overcoming" the past- the legacy of your ancestors. Kamina's desire was to go beyond those limits determined by the elderly, a glorification of young defiance. The brilliant ambiguity comes when taking into account Kamina's inspiration was no-one other than his father, an ancestor. The DNA symbolism is fulfilled by the storyline itself: the instance of going against your roots while embracing them mimics the double helix.

No grounds whatsoever my ASS. There is NOTHING in gurren Lagann....art, animation, story, writing, NOTHING that hasn't been done MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better in another mediocre show. NOTHING.

Prove it with quotations, examples, an indepth analysis... this is just an empty statement that is worth nothing by itself.

 

[Enron]

I'll say yes.



No, this is opinion:



While this is foundation:





Prove it with quotations, examples, an indepth analysis... this is just an empty statement that is worth nothing by itself.

hahaha. Wow. ANIME: SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Uh, dude, its ANIME.

An opinion is worth the same whether its backed up by 3 paragraphs of flowery, empty prose like yours or 1 line of get-to-the-goddamned-point like me. In the end, they both mean the same thing. It's not like we are trying to prove a scientific theory or anything. Its whether or not X cartoon is better than Y cartoon.

I've been watching this stuff for over 20 years now, and I've forgotten more shows than the majority of you have ever seen. There is nothing new, nothing fresh in this particular genre of entertainment. Its the same stuff over and over again, each time dressed up in a different suit. I love how some fans argue and hold some of this stuff up as if it were high art, when in reality its just several mediocre elements that together make a fun package. Especially something like Gurren Lagann. There's absolutely nothing that it does that a bucketload of shows that came before it hasn't done better. And boy o boy, do the fans get upset when you tell them this.

 

[7Th]

hahaha. Wow. ANIME: SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Uh, dude, its ANIME.

An opinion is worth the same whether its backed up by 3 paragraphs of flowery, empty prose like yours or 1 line of get-to-the-goddamned-point like me. In the end, they both mean the same thing. It's not like we are trying to prove a scientific theory or anything. Its whether or not X cartoon is better than Y cartoon.

I've been watching this stuff for over 20 years now, and I've forgotten more shows than the majority of you have ever seen. There is nothing new, nothing fresh in this particular genre of entertainment. Its the same stuff over and over again, each time dressed up in a different suit. I love how some fans argue and hold some of this stuff up as if it were high art, when in reality its just several mediocre elements that together make a fun package. Especially something like Gurren Lagann. There's absolutely nothing that it does that a bucketload of shows that came before it hasn't done better. And boy o boy, do the fans get upset when you tell them this.

And yet again, the only thing you do is evasion. I don't hold anime, the medium, as particularly accomplished but from time to time certain works surface with determined level of quality and I'm not even using the term "art". It's communication, simple as that.

Also, E-Penis measurement won't work here:

 

[nny]

Baccano! It's awesome. It's only 13 episodes long and since the episodes jump around to different events it can get confusing at first but it's really great to watch. Oh it's also really gory.

Last night I made an unplanned marathon of this..just couldn't stop watching...almost dawn when I finished it, it's a brilliant anime. and it's so much more satisfying to watch the first episode once you finished watching everything..what seemed so random now makes sense..this is probably my favorite of the last year.

 

[phez]

What is that picture? I find the complete lack of 5cm disturbing.

 

[Forceatowulf]

[imghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/DrForester/309_gurren.jpg[/img]

yo whats this

The greatest shit that ever shat is what that is. Tengen toppa gurren lagann.

Watch it.

 

[Enron]

Also, E-Penis measurement won't work here:

In order for something to be an e-penis measurement, I think its got to be something you are proud of. Im ashamed that I have been watching this shit since the late 80s, but I cant stop ;_;

Evasion? hahaha. What am I evading?

 

[vas_a_morir]

To teh Gurren-Lagann fighters:

Different folks, different strokes. Let it go. I think it is overrated as well, but I like some real shitty stuff that I couldn't justify as better than Gurren-Lagann. What's important is you like it. That's rule number one to being a nerd.

 

[Fuzzery]

You misunderstood my point. Each character is unique, with very definite speech patterns and dialogs truly representative a personal world vie. I was arguing the fact that theme is so tightly knitted into the script it becomes, to certain degree, the script itself. Like these concepts used as basis the “psychological” motivations are, like the overall writing, simple yet very in-depth. The take on superficial stereotypes is only as a role.

Hmm by your definition of good characterization, I could easily argue that Oscar the fucking Grouch is the epitome of all characters ever defined on television.

Sure, over-simplification is easy. Shinji went from alienation to acceptance of a harsh society, Nico went from overconfident to acknowledging her own limitations, Youko/Chagum went from childish fear to face her/his responsibility…

Besides, the paragraph wasn’t describing the events of the show but using them to explain her characterization.

On an unrelated note, the use of “determination” as mobile is a pretty lazy argument. Even you are only keeping this debate with me due to your “determination” to prove me wrong.

So some fanboy can write up a long piece of psychoanalysis about a character, about how each action shows this or that; it changes nothing.

I can do the same with Oscar the grouch. I can comment on the color of his trash can, his struggle against racial discrimination, his depressed state and his bleak outlook on life. I can infer an inferiority complex towards big bird through his actions and words. His unique speech patterns and grumpy voice are further points of analysis. You can talk about how he fits into the strong and overarching themes of Sesame Street, or how he is the anti-spiral of everything they stand for. You can draw parallels between the civil rights movement of the 1960s, and all the characters of Sesame Street. So he's clearly one of the best characters television has ever produced, right? WRONG, Oscar the grouch is still ABOSFUCKINGLUTELY a completely one-dimensional character.

But you know, I'd still go as far as to say he has about 100% more characterization than Nia.

 

[7Th]

Hmm by your definition of good characterization, I could easily argue that Oscar the fucking Grouch is the epitome of all characters ever defined on television.



So some fanboy can write up a long piece of psychoanalysis about a character, about how each action shows this or that; it changes nothing.

I can do the same with Oscar the grouch. I can comment on the color of his trash can, his struggle against racial discrimination, his depressed state and his bleak outlook on life. I can infer an inferiority complex towards big bird through his actions and words. His unique speech patterns and grumpy voice are further points of analysis. You can talk about how he fits into the strong and overarching themes of Sesame Street, or how he is the anti-spiral of everything they stand for. You can draw parallels between the civil rights movement of the 1960s, and all the characters of Sesame Street. So he's clearly one of the best characters television has ever produced, right? WRONG, Oscar the grouch is still ABOSFUCKINGLUTELY a completely one-dimensional character.

You're truly close-minded, that's a fairly antique logical fallacy. You're not proving my point wrong but rather arguing the need for blatant statements as a need for quality characterization. That's lazy on your part. That basically discards Don Quixiote or Samsa from being the classically regarded as symbols of worthy literature they are.

But you know, I'd still go as far as to say he has about 100% more characterization than Nia.

If you won't accept any kind of inferences and will only take as granted what is given on the screen through straight-forward dialog... even if I believe mention Nia's characterization, father-complex or inner conflict as the Messenger were pretty clearly stated.

 

[Hitokage]

You're truly close-minded, that's a fairly antique logical fallacy.

Call me close-minded, but invoking "logical fallacy" in this discussion is inappropriate.

 

[7Th]

Call me close-minded, but invoking "logical fallacy" in this discussion is inappropriate.

Perhaps, but his example was just out of place rather than a true argument against my point.

 

[Fuzzery]

You're truly close-minded, that's a fairly antique logical fallacy. You're not proving my point wrong but rather arguing the need for blatant statements as a need for quality characterization. That's lazy on your part. That basically discards Don Quixiote or Samsa from being the classically regarded as symbols of worthy literature they are.

Um, no, that was a demonstration of your retarded method of measuring characterization. My idea of good characterization is when a complex character is created, with whom you can fully empathize with and understand, about the myriad of conflicts and issues that they go through. I'm sorry, but most of the characters are just far too simplistic, and just not "real." I blame this on Gainax's use of cliched anime stereotyping; it establishes maybe one or two easily identifiable traits, with whom the viewer can easily identify with, and nothing more. Their target audience for G-L simply WASN'T a mature audience, and thus they had characters with 1 or 2 easily depicted qualities to them, and no real depth after that.

 

[Fuzzery]

If you won't accept any kind of inferences and will only take as granted what is given on the screen through straight-forward dialog... even if I believe mention Nia's characterization, father-complex or inner conflict as the Messenger were pretty clearly stated.

There are also a million things I could infer about Oscar the grouch.

 

[7Th]

Um, no, that was a demonstration of your retarded method of measuring characterization. My idea of good characterization is when a complex character is created, with whom you can fully empathize with and understand, about the myriad of conflicts and issues that they go through. I'm sorry, but most of the characters are just far too simplistic, and just not "real." I blame this on Gainax's use of cliched anime stereotyping; it establishes maybe one or two easily identifiable traits, with whom the viewer can easily identify with, and nothing more. Their target audience for G-L simply WASN'T a mature audience, and thus they had characters with 1 or 2 easily depicted qualities to them, and no real depth after that.

And how can't you understand the issues dealt by Gurren-Lagann's characters? The stereotype traits are there, but so is a more intricate characterization. It's like saying Kamina was nothing more but a loud-mouthed rebel.

There are also a million things I could infer about Oscar the grouch.

Infer them, then. That's the point of subtlety. Even when the things you're stating about Oscar the Grouch are unrelated to Sesame Street's storytelling while my take on Nia is a very clear point through the actual script.

 

[Fuzzery]

And how can't you understand the issues dealt by Gurren-Lagann's characters? The stereotype traits are there, but so is a more intricate characterization. It's like saying Kamina was nothing more but a loud-mouthed rebel.

And you're saying he's not? That they throw in that little bit with his father, hardly makes him any more complex.

 

[Fuzzery]

Infer them, then. That's the point of subtlety. Even when the things you're stating about Oscar the Grouch are unrelated to Sesame Street's storytelling while my take on Nia is a very clear point through the actual script.

So what exactly is your take on Nia? What makes her such a good character?

Btw, just the fact that they are using stereotyping traits, means a great deal about the depth of the show.

 

[7Th]

And you're saying he's not? That they throw in that little bit with his father, hardly makes him any more complex.

Sounds like you barely watched the show. Kamina's characterization was pretty clear beyond that of a loud-mouthed idiot, even from episode 3. "If I can't believe in him, there is no proof of my self-worth..."

Btw, just the fact that they are using stereotyping traits, means a great deal about the depth of the show.

You've read anything I've written before page four? The good thematic handling? The excellent use of dialogs? The stereotypes mean nothing, they're roles required to fulfill the beyond-fictional message on storytelling.

 

[Fuzzery]

Sounds like you barely watched the show. Kamina's characterization was pretty clear beyond that of a loud-mouthed idiot, even from episode 3. "If I can't believe in him, there is no proof of my self-worth..."

And that shows something about Kamina's character....how? It just shows simon is fed up with current state and wants to believe in this rebel.

 

[7Th]

And that shows something about Kamina's character....how? It just shows simon is fed up with current state and wants to believe in this rebel.

:lol

That was a Kamina dialog.

 

[Fuzzery]

:lol

That was a Kamina dialog.

Ok, so he wants to believe in Simon. Soooooo....?