Lords of the Fallen CEO takes stand against idea of "modern audience".

Kupfer said:
Didn't play KCD2 yet, but since when is sodomy considered self-censorship?
Click to expand...

I took a look at the article the tweet mentions. Vavra said this:

Next, Vavra admitted he included a number of things that woke journalists trashed him for back when he released the first game, "And so we put some things in there that they acted like were completely normal. And we put them in there, like, they are there, but we put them in the way they could realistically be. Which I assumed the people demanding it really wouldn't like."
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He was worried about a repeat with what happened with the first game:

During an appearance on the Show Jana Krause back in March, Vavra is asked about the "romantic" options in the game and he says there are both boys and girls.

The host then jokes he's not interested in the boys. Then, according to a translator, Vavra replied with an ironic saying, "Well, maybe that helped us not to be called sexist."
Click to expand...

Vavra said, "The Sword of Damocles hung in the air for quite a long time, and I was really intensely afraid that they would dig up on me again, uh, the things they dug up the first time. And because, and now, like, basically, back then, when the first game was coming out, they dug up those controversies on us, right, that it's not diverse enough and blah blah.
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He was also worried about being fired due to various things he's posted and said online - for example, being labeled a Trumpist.

It's all here:

fandompulse.substack.com

'Kingdom Come: Deliverance II' Creative Director Daniel Vavra Says He Included Sodomy To Avoid Being Called Sexist

Daniel Vavra, the Creative Director for Warhorse Studios’ Kingdom Come: Deliverance II, says he included sodomy into the game to avoid being called a sexist.This Substack is reader-supported.
fandompulse.substack.com fandompulse.substack.com

Basically, it sounds like he included some things to avoid backlash from certain people but then encountered backlash from that too.
 
laynelane said:
I took a look at the article the tweet mentions. Vavra said this:



He was worried about a repeat with what happened with the first game:





He was also worried about being fired due to various things he's posted and said online - for example, being labeled a Trumpist.

It's all here:

fandompulse.substack.com

'Kingdom Come: Deliverance II' Creative Director Daniel Vavra Says He Included Sodomy To Avoid Being Called Sexist

Daniel Vavra, the Creative Director for Warhorse Studios’ Kingdom Come: Deliverance II, says he included sodomy into the game to avoid being called a sexist.This Substack is reader-supported.
fandompulse.substack.com fandompulse.substack.com

Basically, it sounds like he included some things to avoid backlash from certain people but then encountered backlash from that too.
Click to expand...
What we have to worry about nowadays... strange times.
 
What does "modern audiences" even mean?

I don't even think there is a concensus and it's just a vague idea with a stigma.
 
laynelane said:
I took a look at the article the tweet mentions. Vavra said this:



He was worried about a repeat with what happened with the first game:





He was also worried about being fired due to various things he's posted and said online - for example, being labeled a Trumpist.

It's all here:

fandompulse.substack.com

'Kingdom Come: Deliverance II' Creative Director Daniel Vavra Says He Included Sodomy To Avoid Being Called Sexist

Daniel Vavra, the Creative Director for Warhorse Studios’ Kingdom Come: Deliverance II, says he included sodomy into the game to avoid being called a sexist.This Substack is reader-supported.
fandompulse.substack.com fandompulse.substack.com

Basically, it sounds like he included some things to avoid backlash from certain people but then encountered backlash from that too.
Click to expand...
Basically it sounds like he bend like a coward
 
Kupfer said:
Didn't play KCD2 yet, but since when is sodomy considered self-censorship?
Click to expand...
Like seriously. The fuck going on here. I don't follow much the "woke agenda" or whatever but sodomy isn't exactly "inaccurate" or just for modern audience. Lol.
 
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Thief1987 said:
Basically it sounds like he bend like a coward
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He shouldn't have been afraid. Cancel culture still exists, progressive game journalists still want to cancel (latest example: PC Gamer editor trying to stir up trouble for Oblivion composer Jeremy Soule), but they've become powerless.
 
Gullible people don't realize desperate marketing when they see it.
There's an 11 page OT here on GAF. Not a single complaint or mention of the game being 'woke' or targeted at a modern audience.

best for the devs to focus on putting as much quality in their gameplay as possible instead of this silly pandering to a gullible group of people.
 
I don't care about "body types".
I just want a bit less clunky combat than the last one, and this will be a day 1 purchase for sure!
Loved the atmosphere and designs in the 2023(?) LOTF.
 
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Killjoy-NL said:
What does "modern audiences" even mean?

I don't even think there is a concensus and it's just a vague idea with a stigma.
Click to expand...
The modern audience and the "modern audience" are two separate things.
  • One is the actual definition of the words akin to "new blood" or "new generation of gamers".
  • The other "modern audience" is a trigger phrase that when mentioned in trailers and interviews, you can assume with decent accuracy that it means "we think all new generation of gamers want is transvestites, girl bosses and out of place diversity characters, we are going to fill our product with such and all nay-sayers are somehow a surviving vocal minority of the 3rd Reich".

Now the "modern audience" definition is changing again to something similar to a Unicorn.
 
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KiteGr said:
The modern audience and the "modern audience" are to separate things.
  • One is the actual definition of the words akin to "new blood" or "new generation of gamers".
  • The other "modern audience" is a trigger phrase that when mentioned in trailers and interviews, you can assume with decent accuracy that it means "we think all new generation of gamers want is transvestites, girl bosses and out of place diversity characters, we are going to fill our product with such and all nay-sayers are somehow a surviving vocal minority of the 3rd Reich".

Now the "modern audience" definition is changing again to something similar to a Unicorn.
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Yeah, that's how I always took it as well, but most people freely conflate the two whenever it fits a certain narrative, so it became a bit vague.
 
Meh, dude is just pandering at this point.

Any well-adjusted dude would know that male female is the way to go without opening a fucking poll to change it after you launched the game with type a-b.

He should have know that modern audience doesn't really exist or has money to pay for games, he should not have pandered to the crazies to begin with.
 
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Yelling Season 3 GIF by The Simpsons


We get it, you want to please the bigger crowd and sell more units... Stop pretending you care about any "sides".
 
He's just panhandling at this point. Trying to say something "based" in the hopes it will stick and the game sells to a certain crowd.

Body type shit in games is not make or break for sales - see Elden Ring which had the exact same character creation setup as Lords of the Fallen 1.0 yet sold over 30 million copies. The reality is that Lords is just a shitty Temu Souls that people didn't want to play.

The fact is that the game still hasn't broke even, hence the need for the big 2.0 re-launch. To their credit, the game seems genuinely improved now. And its on sale at a lower price. Both of these things are more likely candidates for the influx of new players. We'll see how long that actually lasts.

There's also an irony in him claiming to be "players first" now when they're taking Epic money to make the sequel EGS exclusive...
 
Ozriel said:
Gullible people don't realize desperate marketing when they see it.
There's an 11 page OT here on GAF. Not a single complaint or mention of the game being 'woke' or targeted at a modern audience.

best for the devs to focus on putting as much quality in their gameplay as possible instead of this silly pandering to a gullible group of people.
Click to expand...

As expected, I see the modern audience is upset by this notion.
 
Modern audience is an illusion. There is just a very small yet loud group of people who don't buy shit. To please those you lose the audience that actually buys games.
 
Love it.

It's a damn shame the Lords of the Fallen sequel is Epic exclusive. That's gonna take the wind out of his sails, no matter how 'based' his game is.
 
That's fine and all, but there isn't exactly a huge PC audience for your game if you keep it exclusive to EGS, either ...
 
PPl complaining about this polish guy pandering to us, gamers- who he should pander to, woke activists that never buy games or actual gamers, who will spend their hard made time and money on his product?
Its same with independed bossbabes complain about men picking "pick me women"- guess what, those "pick me women" meet men's demands so are actually picked and dont need to enjoy the future as a baby momma to 3 different baby daddies or 50yo cat/doglady :D
 
Cakeboxer said:
Modern audience is an illusion. There is just a very small yet loud group of people who don't buy shit. To please those you lose the audience that actually buys games.
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It is something video game journalists constructed after GG, with their "gamers are dead" narrative.

Unfortunately for them it doesn't exist, people hate the games that came out of this mindset and games like Chuds of the Fallen get a new life when they spurn it.
 
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diffusionx said:
It is something video game journalists constructed after GG, with their "gamers are dead" narrative.

Unfortunately for them it doesn't exist, people hate the games that came out of this mindset and games like Chuds of the Fallen get a new life when they spurn it.
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Yup, I still remember articles saying stuff like 'the world is diverse and it's time that games and gamers caught up'.
 
Killjoy-NL said:
What does "modern audiences" even mean?

I don't even think there is a concensus and it's just a vague idea with a stigma.
Click to expand...
Don't bark at the anti-woke about the term "modern audiences" we didn't invent that shit. we just use it to mock them. "Modern audiences" is a woke term and there is a definition, it means not us, unless you're a wokie.

How it started:

www.gamedeveloper.com

'Gamers' don't have to be your audience. 'Gamers' are over.

'Game culture' as we know it is kind of embarrassing -- it’s not even culture. It’s buying things, spackling over memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet.
www.gamedeveloper.com www.gamedeveloper.com

So sick of getting blamed for standing up for myself against these people who obviously hate anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Lords of the Fallen is awesome and I'm doing a run right now with my brother.
 
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Zacfoldor said:
Don't bark at the anti-woke about the term "modern audiences" we didn't invent that shit. we just us it to mock them. "Modern audiences" is a woke term and there is a fucking definition, it means not us.
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I was legit asking though.

Wasn't even talking about anti-woke.
 
Not sure if I'm a modern audience or not but KCD2 is like 100 times better game than Lords of the Fallen. It's not even close. Maybe the Lords team should focus more on making better games and less on the culture wars.
 
diffusionx said:
Read what I wrote - during GG they proclaimed "gamers are dead" and there was a "modern audience" of people that agreed with them politically and wanted their games to reflect that.

They were wrong.
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Yes, their reasoning was something like "dudebros don't need to be catered to anymore. they will begrudgingly buy anything we put out."
 
diffusionx said:
Read what I wrote - during GG they proclaimed "gamers are dead" and there was a "modern audience" of people that agreed with them politically and wanted their games to reflect that.

They were wrong.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I don't even get who you mean by "we" when saying "we didn't invent that shit".

I think I was still a lurker at the time of GG and never even bothered really paying attention to it, because I thought it was some cyber-battle between nerds. 🤷🏾‍♂️

I always took 'modern audiences' as the younger generation, as in the ones that grew up with internet and online gaming, rather than the older millenials and gen X, who prefer old skool/retro gaming.
 
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GymWolf said:
Meh, dude is just pandering at this point.

Any well-adjusted dude would know that male female is the way to go without opening a fucking poll to change it after you launched the game with type a-b.

He should have know that modern audience doesn't really exist or has money to pay for games, he should not have pandered to the crazies to begin with.
Click to expand...
It's obvious he's just doing it for publicity at this point.

Still love to see it though. He's saying things that would've got him cancelled 2-3 years ago. It's good for the rest of the industry to see that they will be handsomely rewarded for rejecting the "modern audience" nonsense.
 
Killjoy-NL said:
I was legit asking though.

Wasn't even talking about anti-woke.
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Sorry, may be a bit defensive. It is a woke term though. Corpo speak and it just shows up a lot in mockery and is often in quotations. Shows in in marketing for a lot of games. Shows up in quotations a lot when our youtubers mock games. Truth is it doesn't exist.

The idea is there is some large audience of woke people who would game if only gaming itself was more woke, and that developers should design their games around this modern audience rather than their traditional audience in order to maximize profit. Time and again it has proven to not exist. People that just want the games to be woke like to pretend it exists in order to trick large publishers and devs who drink a similar type of cool-aid to make them in the first place. When the games come out they go broke but also wokies get a cool new game to tout and take from normal gamers via opportunity costs.
 
did wishlist it just now.

The next time its on sale im gonna buy it just beacuse i want to support the guys ( and girls )
 
Killjoy-NL said:
Yeah, but I don't even get who you mean by "we" when saying "we didn't invent that shit".

I think I was still a lurker at the time of GG and never even bothered really paying attention to it, because I thought it was some cyber-battle between nerds. 🤷🏾‍♂️

I always took 'modern audiences' as the younger generation, as in the ones that grew up with internet and online gaming, rather than the older millenials and gen X, who prefer old skool/retro gaming.
Click to expand...

The term has its origins in Gamergate and it was tied to a particularly hateful way of looking at people who enjoy gaming. The premise, though, as we see it today goes something like this: gamers are predominantly made up men/boys (some throw white and straight in there too). This is not okay. Games have traditionally been made for and marketed to this demographic. This is bad. In order to bring in more people to buy and play games, marketing and games have to represent everyone who is not part of the traditional demographic. This potential broader audience is the "modern audience" who won't be interested in games unless they're represented, included, etc. - basically, DEI.

It's this idea that if DEI is put into games, it will attract all those people who don't game - they'll see themselves in a video game and will want to play that game. That's the mythical modern audience as it's defined today, imo. Definitely not those nasty gamers who have been the core of this industry since its inception.

Essentially, it's a concept steeped in extreme idealogy and its basic premise is and always has been inaccurate too. Gamers are a diverse group and games have always been diverse too. Some developers have chosen to alientate their core audience because they really believe they're being progressive and sales will be made up by new customers. However, as it turns out, changing games to chase this imaginary audience is not profitable or sustainable. That's the point being made by Tyminski in the OP.
 
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