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Amazon argues that consumer doesn't own purchased content

Woman sues amazon for their wording on how they can at any time delete her content that she purchased like movies.

I'm not anti-digital at all, but I do roll my eyes whenever someone says something like "oh yea man I'm going all digital this gen."

Sure, go all digital and then 30 years from now let's see what happens to that stuff you bought.

 

mango drank

Member
I used to go through a painful process of removing the DRM from any Kindle books I'd buy, and save the backed up files just in case. Nowadays I can't be arsed.

I wonder if you can do the same thing for movies and TV show episodes you buy digitally from Amazon.
 

The Pleasure

Gold Member
Physical media, baby. I have vinyls record that are 70 years old and still play.

This is why Game Pass is a solid no from me.
Hey guys. Look at everything I DON'T OWN!
ld7pg4wu14d51.jpg
 

SafeOrAlone

Banned
Digital services are still awesome. I utilise them to check things out and for convenience.
I keep my prized physical media safe and sound in it's "break in case of emergency" packaging. I don't need to own everything, just my favorites.

You just have to know what you are getting into. Don't think you own digital media. Use it for convenience.

People using this as a reason to dump on Game Pass are laughable. They might as well dump on every other digital service while they're at it. And while a small, childish part of me would cheer them on, they'd just be an "old man yelling at cloud."
 
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GeorgPrime

Banned
They are just saying out loud what everyone else does.

Gaming is no different. Aside from GOG it's all just glorified long term renting.

Thats what i say for a long time.

You are not buying the movie only the right to watch it on amazon.

Same goes for games. They are not yours even if you paid for them digitally.

Dpnt even know why people are surprised yet and sue them xD
 
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godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
I don’t really have a problem with this stance because at the end of the day, I prefer the convenience.
Moreover, this “limited usage license” is pushed by the content creators.
Also, I only rent from digital platforms for this reason. If I want to OWN something, I buy a physical copy of it; never on a digital platform.
 
Not trying to be a bootlicker here, but the person bringing this suit still has access to everything they purchased. I can understand a judge asking why their time is being wasted for a hypothetical offense that has not occurred.

All that being said, preserve everything from the 00's and prior from the Woke Theocrats who want to cancel everything from before whatever woke fad is popular in the zeitgeist.
 
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S

slugbahr

Unconfirmed Member
It's so convenient to pay basically the same price as what a physical copy of something would cost to own, and get the equivalent of a rental.
Nice work pulling the wool over people's eyes.
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
They are just saying out loud what everyone else does.

Gaming is no different. Aside from GOG it's all just glorified long term renting.
This is why I'm the world's biggest GOG shill.

I'm vehemently anti-DRM. I'm the Antifa of DRM haters as if DRM was capitalism or Trump.

I buy physical as long as it's available or GOG.

Examples like the one in the OP are exactly why I dislike going digital (again, unless it's GOG) and people usually disagree or hate me for it.
 

Durask

Member
I do not buy movies only rent or stream. On rare occasion that I do buy a movie, it is certainly a physical copy.
As far as ebooks go, I do try to buy DRM-free ebooks for anything that I may re-read. Still buy physical copies of important books.
With junk sci-fi and junky manga I am ok with Kindle because I will never ever re-read them.

Since I rarely go back to old games I am ok with digital only. I fully realize that they may go poof one day, I doubt I will care at that point.
 
Physical media, baby. I have vinyls record that are 70 years old and still play.

This is why Game Pass is a solid no from me.

I completely agree but still find game pass to be a great deal for what I want. I play mainly on PC and use the Xbox for backwards compatibility having gamepass for a bit more than an xbox live subscription is worth it as I view it as cheap ass rentals on games I don't want to personally own.
 

GymWolf

Member
That's why i still buy physical on console.

Pc physical copies only have codes nowadays so there is no much to do...
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
That's why i still buy physical on console.

Pc physical copies only have codes nowadays so there is no much to do...
With PC the best is to use GOG whenever you can. Backup your games on physical media.
 

Soodanim

Member
I understand Spotify and Netflix. You pay your fee, and get streaming access (with download for convenience), and it's clear what you're getting.

But I guarantee if Amazon were forced to change their labels to "Rent/Buy a viewing license" they'd see drops in sales. I've never bought a stand alone license to stream something, it's a ridiculous concept to me that has no advantage over owning physical media outside of not needing storage space or for those rarer exceptions where you just can't get hold of the disc release.
 
Physical or digital, we've always just been paying for controlled access to someone else's material. That's true of games, movies, music etc.
The difference with digital is the level of enforcement of those controls.
Streaming and subscription services offer even higher levels of enforcement.
But the underlying topic of what it is the consumer is buying - what level of ownership they have - hasn't really changed.
 

GymWolf

Member
With PC the best is to use GOG whenever you can. Backup your games on physical media.
I'm not gonna pay the full price on gog when i can save between 20 to 30 euros in other key sites.

When gog is gonna start to have competitive prices maybe i would buy from them.

I feel dirty and stupid paying full price for something digital.
 
Since the time of CDs I consider the consumer-license relationship to essentially be "I am entitled to a working copy of this product". I never assumed I owned the software or the song itself, just my own copy of it.

The question should then be who do you trust to keep your copy working, yourself or the license holder? This is why I've shied away from streaming and digital services...
 
Yeah, when big corporations support far left policies and 'socialist' movements, this is what they mean. Everyone equally owns nothing, has no rights or power, and will be ostracised from society if they step out of line, all while the major corporations have all the power, money and influence.

Hey guys. Look at everything I DON'T OWN!
ld7pg4wu14d51.jpg
...and there's always short sighted hedonists, that don't care about long term consequences, who will lap it all up.

As long as there's short term pleasure, they will happily sell their rights, dignity and future down the river for an easy, immediate bit of fun.
 

Super Mario

Banned
Lots of my Nintendo stuff has a solid value. All of your digital stuff has zero value.

But I do like streaming like Netflix and such for consumable content I'll probably only watch once. I used to make the mistake of buying TV series on DVD.
 
Yeah, when big corporations support far left policies and 'socialist' movements, this is what they mean. Everyone equally owns nothing, has no rights or power, and will be ostracised from society if they step out of line, all while the major corporations have all the power, money and influence.


...and there's always short sighted hedonists, that don't care about long term consequences, who will lap it all up.

As long as there's short term pleasure, they will happily sell their rights, dignity and future down the river for an easy, immediate bit of fun.
There is a distinction between 'access' and 'ownership' and I feel that a lot of the disgruntlement expressed in conversations such as these is the conflation between the two terms.

Whilst I'm quite sympathetic to the broader argument you raise, I don't believe this episode is an accurate symptom of it.
 
Yeah, when big corporations support far left policies and 'socialist' movements, this is what they mean. Everyone equally owns nothing, has no rights or power, and will be ostracised from society if they step out of line, all while the major corporations have all the power, money and influence.


...and there's always short sighted hedonists, that don't care about long term consequences, who will lap it all up.

As long as there's short term pleasure, they will happily sell their rights, dignity and future down the river for an easy, immediate bit of fun.


Uh. I think you are confused. This is not "socialist" in fact this is as capitalist as it gets. Socialism would be saying here is the price of the product, we will tax everyone until that threshold is met so that everyone can have this product.


What Amazon is doing is essentially renting you a copy of the product and allowing itself to one day close it's servers (and thus your access) to your purchased content.
 
Tbh not even physical media is that safe, say you connect to the internet and they block you from playing it regardless. Of course most if not all of them won't do that but still the fact that they can doesn't change.
 

Soodanim

Member
Uh. I think you are confused. This is not "socialist" in fact this is as capitalist as it gets. Socialism would be saying here is the price of the product, we will tax everyone until that threshold is met so that everyone can have this product.


What Amazon is doing is essentially renting you a copy of the product and allowing itself to one day close it's servers (and thus your access) to your purchased content.
Don't forget they're doing it at full price.

Instead of owning a copy of the disc, you buy a stream rental with no fixed end point.

It's like how EA put out full priced games with microtransactions in - they get the advantages of both and consumers get none.
 
No one own's anything. The disc is the illusion of ownership as per the EULA you typically can't copy and distribute anything even if you bought because you only bought a license to use it.


That is true but it's a lot harder for Amazon to bust into ur house and take your blu ray away than it is for them to shut you out of their servers
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
The point is however that you own a license when you buy digital. And it shouldnt be legal for a company to randomly revoke a purchased license.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
I completely agree but still find game pass to be a great deal for what I want. I play mainly on PC and use the Xbox for backwards compatibility having gamepass for a bit more than an xbox live subscription is worth it as I view it as cheap ass rentals on games I don't want to personally own.
that's totally cool. im all for customer choice, that's the beauty of the free market. and certainly there is room for digital only and rental models. if a customer wants to pay for it, let them.
Physical or digital, we've always just been paying for controlled access to someone else's material. That's true of games, movies, music etc.
The difference with digital is the level of enforcement of those controls.
Streaming and subscription services offer even higher levels of enforcement.
But the underlying topic of what it is the consumer is buying - what level of ownership they have - hasn't really changed.
i agree with all this except the last part. it has changed, and the enforcement is what has changed that. GTA games have songs removed from them years after they come out. this is possible due to patching. however if you use media that does not have patching (or indeed simply play offline, using the physical disc) then this enforcement is bypassed. your ownership is secured. but that is only if you keep the physical disc. physical media cannot be controlled as easily. you have more ownership of it.

legally, i know all the bullshit about licensing and whatnot, but there is a fundamental difference between physical and digital. if i bought a music album digitally, they could remove a song whenever they want, or simply ban me for wrongthink, and i could lose my entire library. with physical media, they don't have that access. it doesn't matter if the legal language is similar between the two, the practical outcome is that physical media is more secure for the consumer.
No one own's anything. The disc is the illusion of ownership as per the EULA you typically can't copy and distribute anything even if you bought because you only bought a license to use it.
but you seem to think that "ownership" means not only owning the media, but having the right to copy and distribute it. i don't think people buy music with the idea that they are going to copy and distribute it. that concept of "ownership" is really only relevant for corporations.

so no, "you don't own anything" is false. if i buy a movie on physical media, i can play it forever, as long as i have a player. that is a markedly different version of "ownership" than subscribing to a streaming service, where that movie can one day just disappear, never to be seen again. you may say "You didn't own either of those" but in the case of physical media, yes, yes i did. you can galaxy brain all you want but you can't deny this practical, real difference.
 
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johntown

Banned
I have no issue with digital. I will never pay full price for it anywhere. The article and lawsuit are frivolous anyway. I have tons of digital content that you cannot purchase or rent anymore but I can still watch it. I think people are making a big deal over nothing.

This goes to steam games as well. I have a few unlisted games but they are never removed from my library.

I do admit that the possibility is there for that to happen but it is not something I am worried about. If it does start to happen it will kill the digital industry.
 

BluRayHiDef

Banned
I bought Watch Dogs 2 on PC via UPlay when it was released and I've recently discovered that it's no longer in my purchase history. The same goes for The Division.
 

thief183

Member
Why do you care? In 30 years noone will care about today's games except for a small fraction. I've never replayed a game I already finished and I don't plan to do It in the future. Just out a 20 dollar max ti spend and go on
 

Nymphae

Banned
No one own's anything. The disc is the illusion of ownership as per the EULA you typically can't copy and distribute anything even if you bought because you only bought a license to use it.

That's what I bought, in a physical form. I don't know why this always veers into "you don't akshually OWN the rights to the piece of content"

No shit, but it's also a strange semantic argument. Of course I own Seinfeld on disc. Do I personally have the rights to the series? No, I bought a disc which I own, and it enables me to play a thing someone else owns rights to as long as I maintain ownership of the disc. Colloquially we refer to this as owning a piece of media, no one is under the illusion that they own any more than a playable piece of media.
 
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EverydayBeast

ChatGPT 0.001
I'm rooting for digital, putting a physical game up on Ebay for a million dollars (Majora's Mask) is bullshit when you can just buy the game for $10 on the wii store.
 
i agree with all this except the last part. it has changed, and the enforcement is what has changed that. GTA games have songs removed from them years after they come out. this is possible due to patching. however if you use media that does not have patching (or indeed simply play offline, using the physical disc) then this enforcement is bypassed. your ownership is secured. but that is only if you keep the physical disc. physical media cannot be controlled as easily. you have more ownership of it.
That's fair - but it's a 2 way street and is a uniquely applicable to software over other forms of media.

The GTA example is entirely apt, but rather isolated. And this was borne of licences expiring - effectively the issue was of R*s ownership of the material they'd licenced to use in their product. They no longer could use it, their access had been revoked and they were obligated to reflect that in their product. This could be done through a patch. I would imagine if new boxed copies of GTA are put on shelves, those new editions would also have the same content removed from them for the same reasons.

So this is not quite the same as a publisher<>consumer relationship about ownership/access, but a reflection of a product <> content-licence relationship.
If you buy a ticket to watch a movie and that movie has been told to cut certain scenes for it to be allowed to be shown in your country then that would be a more apt comparison.

But the very same mechanism that allows content to be remove in this example of GTA is one that, by any reasonable measure, gives consumers far more than it takes.
GTA has used patching to add far more content to the original game than to remove it.
Patching games often allows for later bugs to be removed for example. This is also, arguably, removal of content. So we have a quandry - is removal of content still a negative if it's making the product better?
Patching games often allows for extra content to be added - such as the recent Ghost of Tsushima patch that added a new game-mode along with other things.
No Man's Sky is a high-profile example of a game where people would probably favour the patched or 'game of the year' edition version over the vanilla release.

You're absolutely correct in that if you only ever run the physical copy of something then (assuming there's no online check-in when starting it) you will always have that content.
But there are pros and cons to that - though it seems, in most cases, they are pros.

or simply ban me for wrongthink
For a content / streaming platform I would want to see example of this happening and in the context you're referring to in order for me to consider it with more weight.
I would expect that if I broke the terms of service for a platform that I had agreed to abide by, then my access to it - and its content - would be revoked. I don't think that's unreasonable.
If those terms were attempting to dictate what I am allowed to think then that is the part I'd have issue with.

As an aside, I don't want to sound dismissive of that point.
I recall Facebook wanting to start its own cryptocurrency and that genuinely concerned me - on the basis that these social media companies can (and do) lock people out of their accounts and content at a moment's notice - sometimes with very questionable reasoning. If that content included currency then I could see things getting very ugly very quickly. (Even so, I would expect something like that to be regulated to hell and back to protect users' finances).


physical media cannot be controlled as easily. you have more ownership of it.
I don't disagree with that - except the notion of "more ownership" is a misnomer. You have more control of access, not of ownership.
 
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Fbh

Member
This is why I'm the world's biggest GOG shill.

I'm vehemently anti-DRM. I'm the Antifa of DRM haters as if DRM was capitalism or Trump.

I buy physical as long as it's available or GOG.

Examples like the one in the OP are exactly why I dislike going digital (again, unless it's GOG) and people usually disagree or hate me for it.


Yeah I try to buy from GOG as much as possible. It's a shame that a lot of games aren't available so I still buy plenty of stuff from other places. But if something is available on GOG that's the platform where I'm getting it.
I'm even willing to wait if there's some certainty something will release on GOG. Like Hades should eventually come to GOG just like every other game from Supergiant, so I have no problem waiting another 6 months for it.

It doesn't hurt that they have amazing regional pricing too. I just got Metro Exodus for a bit over $5 yesterday.
 
Americans are so uptight about their "collections". In 20 years I won't care if Steam decides to remove Witcher 3 from my account or whatever. Why should I? When I'm dead I wont care about any of the games I "own" anyway.
 
Americans are so uptight about their "collections". In 20 years I won't care if Steam decides to remove Witcher 3 from my account or whatever. Why should I? When I'm dead I wont care about any of the games I "own" anyway.
I think this is as much an argument of principle as of practice. They're valid concerns.
 
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