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Jonnyboy117
Member
I think the recent direction of the Zelda series (in terms of gameplay, not graphics) has so far escaped criticism because it's not quite stale yet. They've explored the OoT style about as much as it can be explored, but even in Wind Waker, a lot of it felt very fresh or at least still exciting. However, I think the series needs a new direction for the next game. If mature Zelda plays just like Wind Waker, you'll hear the first major criticisms of the series in a long time.
Folder said:
The only thing hardcore about AC is the fact that you can play games like Punch-Out on it. The actual AC game is anything but.
Anyway, I agree a lot with the original post.
I like what I've played of ICO, and it's a Japanese-Tomb Raider with neat art direction. But that's not a bad thing at all. I think it's a cool adventure game through and through.
Rez and Lumines on the other hand are pretty mediocre. And although both have cool music, and Rez definitely has its moments, and both forms of gameplay while functional, could definitely be a lot better than their mediocre state.
I view it very differently from the Rez/Lumines lovers. If those games excelled in their particular genres (ie being an awesome rails shooter and puzzle game respectively), while layering on top of that an integrative sight/sound effort, they would go down as some of the coolest games of all time. As they are, it just doesn't seem as if Mizuguchi has high enough aspirations. He stops at workable, when he could be delivering TEH KILLER AP like SC5pt2 was
And Ico at least gets defended fiercely, particularly using Ueda's subtractive design mandate as a failsafe band-aid to counter any criticism of it's rather medicore game mechanics. Ico succeeds almost entirely due to it's aesthetic, it's style as susbstance. Which is something the Sony faithful evidently can't stomach.Ignatz Mouse said:
That may have been true a generation or two ago, but Nintendo games these games are looked at under a microscope. Deservedly so, they're generally not as good anymore. Pokemon gets unfairly knocked more than any other game probably.Ignatz Mouse said:
Sega's fall from grace was far more public, though I'd argue their game quality took a dive earlier than most admit (post Saturn/Model 3, on Dreamcast/Naomi, mid 1999-ish).
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Shig said:
Their early games I'm not that critical of. But still just about anything they released on the N64 is untouchable, and SMS is probably the first Mario game to have garnered much criticism. Zelda, other than the look of Celda, seems to be still above reproach.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Bah, Ico gets blasted because environmental platformer/puzzlers have only ever had a niche following. Nothing mediocre about it, expect the length, perhaps.
Ignatz Mouse said:
I think most of the complaints about the look of Wind Waker went away after it was shown at E3 and we got an idea of what the finished game would look like. I've seen complaints about the game itself pretty frequently, however. In any case, it's hardly a small number of people who were dissatisfied with TWW.
I suggest you look a little harder. The Wind Waker was a gorgeous game with almost unparalleled presentation. It's downfall in critical circles was most definitely the core design, not it's visuals.Ignatz Mouse said:
I'd personally say, it's the worst Zelda since Zelda II. A 'B grade' game at best really.
Pedigree Chum
Banned
ICO: Brilliant
REZ: Sucky, but cool
Lumines: Awesome (when you start apply advanced strategies)
REZ: Sucky, but cool
Lumines: Awesome (when you start apply advanced strategies)
Drinky Crow
Banned
One word: SPONG.
Animal Crossing isn't even approaching hardcore. Dodonpachi Daioujou is hardcore. Alpha Centauri is hardcore. Umihara Kawase is hardcore. Animal Crossing is, at best, chickcore, and at worst an utter exercise in non-gaming. Rez is orders of magnitude more "hardcore".
Animal Crossing isn't even approaching hardcore. Dodonpachi Daioujou is hardcore. Alpha Centauri is hardcore. Umihara Kawase is hardcore. Animal Crossing is, at best, chickcore, and at worst an utter exercise in non-gaming. Rez is orders of magnitude more "hardcore".
I dunno, Majora has a lot of detractors, and many people dislike WW for more than it's art. Personally, I put it down at the Triforce hunt and haven't touched the game since, and the art style is the least of factors, in fact it's probably what kept me going for as long as I did.Ignatz Mouse said:
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
jarrod said:
I am a big fan of the type of game. I like the first Tomb Raider a lot, too. I like Mario Vs Donkey Kong, too.
Not enough games of this type, IMHO, where thinking is more important than co-ordination.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
jarrod said:
Perhaps I should look harder. I just know that whenever *I* make a critical comment about some of Nintendo's sacred cows, I get all these "*boggle*" and sarcastic comments for it. I don't follow a lot of the Nin-game threads closely, since I havn't owned a Gamecube. But Mario 64 and pre-current-gen Zeldas still seem to be untouchable.
Even without its visual splendor, I don't think you could call Wind Waker a B game. I am not even a huge fan of the series (I much prefer 2d Zelda games...), but it's one of the few touchstones for this generation from pretty much any perspective.
That it might not be as good as TooT was on N64 is almost beside the point.
That it might not be as good as TooT was on N64 is almost beside the point.
deadhorse32
Bad Art
Strangely i never finished ICO. I couldn't immerse myself and wasn't in the right state of mind.
I liked REZ
I liked REZ
Drinky Crow
Banned
Mario 64 is eminently criticisable, as is Ocarina of Time. The latter is still one of my favorite games, but the designs of the Water Dungeon (menu-swapping madness) and Hyrule Field are pretty easy targets.
The only truly uncriticisable game is Diablo 2. It's impossible to hate. If you do hate it, you're not a human being and are beneath contempt. I would sooner read SPONG than associate with a mythical Diablo 2 hater.
The only truly uncriticisable game is Diablo 2. It's impossible to hate. If you do hate it, you're not a human being and are beneath contempt. I would sooner read SPONG than associate with a mythical Diablo 2 hater.
Mr_Furious
Member
What's the point of this thread again? Oh yeah, it's yet another opportunity for people to criticize games. Haven't there been enough specific game threads to permit people to voice their opinions? For the two games that aren't "allowed" to be criticized, there seems to an abundance of it on GAF. So I say again, what's the point of this thread?
Drinky Crow
Banned
Which means WHAT, exactly? Some folks collect Beanie Babies, too, despite there being nothing like them on the market. Market originality doesn't excuse SUCKING.
I'm a big Ico fan too, I've gone on about it before. But come on, it's not hard to find rather lacking gameplay components in it's game design... muddy combat and last gen push-puzzles especially. The game succeeds overall though as it's focus really lies elsewhere, it's more than just the sum of it's parts. It's elemental gaming, it transcends traditional gaming in way thanks to it's aesthetic.Ignatz Mouse said:
To just dismiss any criticism as genre misunderstanding though (or worse, justified thanks to design), decalring there's nothing medicore about the game while covering your ears... well, that makes it sound a bit untouchable, doesn't it?
I dunno, even Mario 64 seems to get retroactively panned for it's shift to exploration over linear platforming, especially around here. Ocarina of Time gets criticized for it's bland world design and Majora's Mask was rather controversial even at release really. Sure they all have ardent defenders (I'd consider myself among Majora's) but so do most games.Ignatz Mouse said:
Interesting though that you were so quick to declaire Nintendo the "sacred cow" when you admit to having little or no experience with their console offerings the past few years. Was your declaration Game Boy centric then? Or rooted in something else?
Drinky Crow said:
But Animal Crossing doesn't suck. However, the fact that you felt the need to call it a non-game once again shows how unmoving and unsuccessful that whole idea is.
We can have our opinions, and mine is that Animal Crossing takes originality and runs with it to create a highly enjoyable and entertaining experience. I've run across plenty of proponents and opponents of the game, but the title still stands as a staple to the Cube library. (which you'll now tell me is sad because the Cube library sucks, and round and round we go)
Folder said:
Not it shouldn't have been made but if it's more from a creation will than for money i still accept/respect the game. As i said, it would be in a "perfect world" without money that only creation will would motive the making of a game.(read "it's impossible now").
By the way i think that GTA is those kind of games that goes in both categories and deserve respect. Sam and Dan are 2 guys that had a vision and made into a game for themselve, not in the only goal to make money. It's because GTA happen to be what mainstream gamers like too.
It's not about being "as good as" Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker falls flat thanks to it's own shortcomings. World design, pacing, length, enemy AI, challenge... there's just far too many flaws, it brings the overall packing down several notches. The moments of brilliance (Savage Labyrinth, later wind/light puzzles) are just to few and far between. Despite all the advances in technology it just felt like a by the numbers Zelda on water. What a dissapointment, especially after the daring Major's Mask.Unison said:
I've gotta side with Drinky here, Animal Crossing is horrible. A glorified capitalism simulation, it's more of a non-game than anything. I really think it's good candiate for worst thing to ever come out of Nintendo.Speevy said:
Jonnyboy117
Member
Drinky Crow said:
CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK
IM HAVING FUN
(Since you asked for it.)
Drinky Crow
Banned
But it DOES suck, in which the term "suck" means simple, shallow, homely, stupid, and generally lacking in any good design for its relative media experience -- edge cases of idiot fanboys notwithstanding. Plenty of things people like en masse suck. Britney Spears sucks. The Ford Explorer sucks. Animal Crossing sucks because it takes a sort of OCD possessed by the tragically geeky and/or female and RUNS WITH IT. It's the game of collectoritis, without any of the GAMEPLAY or CHALLENGE that comes with other games that feature a collection hook, like, say DIABLO 2 or even The Sims 2. When it *is* loved, it's loved because it DOESN'T have any real mechanics or challenge -- y'know, the way some folks dig Britney Spears' music for being shallow and easily digestable non-content.
Congratulations: what you like SUCKS. Welcome to America!
Congratulations: what you like SUCKS. Welcome to America!
Drinky Crow
Banned
You only hafta click ONCE (and then hold) on a monster in Diablo 2. Yer talkin' about Diablo 1, buddy.
Red Scarlet
Member
No, it doesn't. The fact that those three words set you back to square one in your argument is the most telling thing of all.
But don't argue with me. I'm just the guy who's willing to concede that everyone has a different opinion. I think GunValkyrie SUCKS. But it's so challenging that the Xbox hardcore find it to be brilliant. Forget challenging. It's entertaining. It's fun. I like it. So do a lot of people. Your snowglobe theory is no closer to becoming law. But, unlike you, I don't angrily insult those who disagree with me.
But don't argue with me. I'm just the guy who's willing to concede that everyone has a different opinion. I think GunValkyrie SUCKS. But it's so challenging that the Xbox hardcore find it to be brilliant. Forget challenging. It's entertaining. It's fun. I like it. So do a lot of people. Your snowglobe theory is no closer to becoming law. But, unlike you, I don't angrily insult those who disagree with me.
Jonnyboy117
Member
Regarding so many people not finishing Wind Waker: if you got the Triforce scavenger hunt, you were 90% through the main quest. There are a ton of side-quests too, but many of them are independent of your progress through the game, and you probably did some of them if you got the Master Sword.
It's a shame that the game has this annoying, mandatory task that stops so many people from seeing the final area and the ending, but considering that it's placed so late in the game, I don't think it detracts terribly from the overall experience. It takes an hour or two to get all the maps and pieces, or less with a guide. There are some good points to it, like the fact that it leads you to islands that you would never notice otherwise, but mostly it was a mistake and should have been rectified in the English version.
It's a shame that the game has this annoying, mandatory task that stops so many people from seeing the final area and the ending, but considering that it's placed so late in the game, I don't think it detracts terribly from the overall experience. It takes an hour or two to get all the maps and pieces, or less with a guide. There are some good points to it, like the fact that it leads you to islands that you would never notice otherwise, but mostly it was a mistake and should have been rectified in the English version.
Jonnyboy117
Member
Drinky Crow said:
Touche. I never played 2 because I hated 1 so much.
Drinky Crow
Banned
It's still a snowglobe, and yer still a retard mesmerized by it. Hey, that's cool: for some people, a ball of tin foil's all that's needed to amuse 'em, even if the tin foil is ugly, repetitive, and completely without any sort of design merit. Like I said, lotsa folks bought a singing plastic trout onna board. You're in good company.
OH MY, STARRY-EYED SURPRISE
Speevy said:
Speevy said:
OH MY, STARRY-EYED SURPRISE
I don't like Animal Crossing, but that isn't some conclusion I've come to blindly. I've played it extensively and I just find the actual mechanics insultingly rudimentary, the central design fundamentally unappealing and no actual payoff in the game. When the highlight to something is emulated NES software, you know you're in trouble.Speevy said:
The only thing pathetic here is how some disregard any notion of criticism against their favorites. At least that seems to be somewhat universal so far though, every camp has their fair share of 'sacred cows'. PC snobs included it seems.
I'm not going to defend AC, but I'm not a fan of Diablo 2 either. It's a glorified scavenger hunt with subpar graphics (cinematics aside) driven by the basic desire to twink out your character.
Admittedly, I'm being overly harsh, mostly because Blizzard's constant nerfs, tweaks, and patches killed my interest. I did enjoy it for a good 30+ hours before I put it down for good once I realized I didn't enjoy the gameplay so much as I enjoyed finding rare shit. It's solid, but definitely not untouchable.
Admittedly, I'm being overly harsh, mostly because Blizzard's constant nerfs, tweaks, and patches killed my interest. I did enjoy it for a good 30+ hours before I put it down for good once I realized I didn't enjoy the gameplay so much as I enjoyed finding rare shit. It's solid, but definitely not untouchable.
jarrod said:
I am sympathetic to this POV, since I certainly feel Wind Waker has its shortcomings, but I still don't feel they're enough to make the game inferior to the average game put out by anyone else. At all. I mean those visuals are incredible, the controls are pretty much perfect, the world is fully realized, and some of the puzzle designs are ingenius.
I am more than willing to put up with an easier game and a few irksome sailing sequences to get to the meat of the game in this case. I can't really think of more than a few games this gen with fewer flaws.
This is something that's kinda been on my mind.
Ico, Katamari Damacy, and Rez all have gameplay that isn't spectacular in any way, shape, or form. Rez is the greatest offender here, though Ico is a decent, short POP platformer and Katamari Damacy has some time/score chasing appeal.
The thing is, these games are proof that gameplay isn't the alpha and the omega. The style of them is what makes them so enjoyable.
I love all three of these games, but I will not be playing them very often.
Ico, Katamari Damacy, and Rez all have gameplay that isn't spectacular in any way, shape, or form. Rez is the greatest offender here, though Ico is a decent, short POP platformer and Katamari Damacy has some time/score chasing appeal.
The thing is, these games are proof that gameplay isn't the alpha and the omega. The style of them is what makes them so enjoyable.
I love all three of these games, but I will not be playing them very often.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
jarrod said:
You're the first person I've ever seen who feels this way.
And I agree.
Drinky Crow
Banned
I think Katamari's mechanically brilliant, and Rez is good old-fashioned pure sensory stimulation -- I play both of them a great deal even to this day.
I'm not an ICO fan, myself, although it did have some evocative scenes. The obnoxious stickfights with the shadows were enough to knock it WAY down in my book, and the puzzles weren't THAT clever.
I'm not an ICO fan, myself, although it did have some evocative scenes. The obnoxious stickfights with the shadows were enough to knock it WAY down in my book, and the puzzles weren't THAT clever.
Red Scarlet
Member
I like both genres, but when they were combined, the final product didn't feel like either one, or have the appeal of either, to me.
Well, you pretty much nailed it right there. The fact that the devs tried to do something different, stylistically, is what makes these games stand apart from the crowd. A succinct and enjoyable meshing of solid gameplay with a unique aesthetic is the reason why these games are heralded as more artistic than others.
Naw, I'd imagine more "real" Saturn fans probably feel the same way than not. Criticizing Azel just gets you crucified in too many circles, while the first 2 games are totally underappreciated by the general public.SonicMegaDrive said:
Saturn fans need a support group or something.
Console games this generation I consider above any serious criticism:
Soul Calibur
Resident Evil 4
Ninja Gaiden
Outrun 2
Zelda: Four Swords Adventures
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Project Gotham Racing 2
Zelda: Wind Waker
Virtua Fighter 4
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Jet Grind Radio
edit: forgot Gradius V!
I don't think any of these are especially arty... They each have superb gameplay and top-notch presentation. Although I've enjoyed just about every game mentioned in this thread to some degree, I can't say they represent the best of the best. It's frustrating to see games like Rez or Ico hailed as the best game on a platform, time and again, when it seems they have gaping gameplay flaws. I realize everyone has their own tastes, and I'm cool with that, but sometimes it gets to be a bit much.
Soul Calibur
Resident Evil 4
Ninja Gaiden
Outrun 2
Zelda: Four Swords Adventures
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Project Gotham Racing 2
Zelda: Wind Waker
Virtua Fighter 4
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Jet Grind Radio
edit: forgot Gradius V!
I don't think any of these are especially arty... They each have superb gameplay and top-notch presentation. Although I've enjoyed just about every game mentioned in this thread to some degree, I can't say they represent the best of the best. It's frustrating to see games like Rez or Ico hailed as the best game on a platform, time and again, when it seems they have gaping gameplay flaws. I realize everyone has their own tastes, and I'm cool with that, but sometimes it gets to be a bit much.
Drinky Crow said:
:lol
Does that make you feel better? Calling me a retard? It simply must.
I'm much more intelligent than you give me credit for Drinky, but I'm not prepared to defend a game while a moderator calls me an idiot. You can win nothing here. My reasons for liking Animal Crossing are still many.
In the game, I have an awesome-looking house which suits my tastes. Today, I received presents in the mail because it's Valentine's Day. If the design decisions that went into those two components of Animal Crossing are without merit to you, I'm sorry. I've caught quite a few bass during the course of the game as well. They don't sing, but I can display them in my house, or sell them, or donate them to the museum. Customize, collect, or profit. There's three more design decisions.
I don't disregard anything. In fact I embrace our differences. I acknowledge them. Talk to Drinky. He's the one calling me a retard for liking a damn video game, and a well-reviewed one at that.
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