Artistic games you’re not allowed to criticise

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Speevy, I've got this dancing Coke can thing you should really dig. Sold like hotcakes over Christmas 2001, too, I'm told. Nothing else out there like it in the home furnishings market, and popular as hell with a certain type of home decorator. Definitely not derivative or unoriginal like a glass coffee table or terracotta lamp.
 
jarrod said:
I'm a big Ico fan too, I've gone on about it before. But come on, it's not hard to find rather lacking gameplay components in it's game design... muddy combat and last gen push-puzzles especially. The game succeeds overall though as it's focus really lies elsewhere, it's more than just the sum of it's parts. It's elemental gaming, it transcends traditional gaming in way thanks to it's aesthetic.

To just dismiss any criticism as genre misunderstanding though (or worse, justified thanks to design), decalring there's nothing medicore about the game while covering your ears... well, that makes it sound a bit untouchable, doesn't it?



I dunno, even Mario 64 seems to get retroactively panned for it's shift to exploration over linear platforming, especially around here. Ocarina of Time gets criticized for it's bland world design and Majora's Mask was rather controversial even at release really. Sure they all have ardent defenders (I'd consider myself among Majora's) but so do most games.

Interesting though that you were so quick to declaire Nintendo the "sacred cow" when you admit to having little or no experience with their console offerings the past few years. Was your declaration Game Boy centric then? Or rooted in something else? :P


Thinking games, ala Myst, have been routinely dismissed by the "gaming elite" for a long time. So much so, that that criticism I har about Ico gets binned. I don't find the puzzles "last gen" when games of this type are rare and rarely well done. Care to elaborate? I'll agree the comabt leaves something to be desired, but that's hardly the meat of the game, is it? It's mostly there to provide a little variety, and pressure to keep going. When people call the game "boring" I wonder if they like environmental puzzle games. I haven't heard any criticism that comes from the point of view of liking hte genre but disliking the game. I would listen to such criticisms.

As far as the rest: yeah, Mario criticism may have finally come around. I wasn't aware it was widespread, I guess I am still remember a million and one fanboys declaring it "greatest game of all time" when as a Mario fan I found it to be a step backwards in a big way (and not being 3D or even exploratory, but for being needlessly bland, challenges made harder by the camera than by design, distinct lack of rewards, and multiple replay of the same freaking levels).

Quick to declare Nintendo the home of the sacred cow? Oh yes. The cannonization of the NES and SNES still runs deep, and it's only after years of being out of the dominatnt spot that the shine is wearing off the mediocrity that was the N64.

Perhaps it's that my view is longer. Not being in touch with the criticisms of the last two years is nothing compared to the 16 or so years before it where Nintendo was treated as the company that could do no wrong.
 
Hey, I've got this game that has you rolling over everything in an ever-growing mass. You've never played anything like it, I promise. It will have zero impact on game design, it won't sell millions of copies, but I think developers and gamers who have played it will call it the most innovative game of 2004. In fact, some of the same people will honor it as had honored another game two years earlier.
 
Drinky Crow said:
The only truly uncriticisable game is Diablo 2. It's impossible to hate. If you do hate it, you're not a human being and are beneath contempt. I would sooner read SPONG than associate with a mythical Diablo 2 hater.

Click, Click, Click, Click, Click!

*coming from someone that beat the game on all 3 levels of difficulty in both single and multi*
 
Or maybe Katamari Damacy is a deep, thoughtful game and Animal Crossing is simple, mindless fun. Or maybe none of these shots at the game is worth a damn. Just say "We agree Drinky." and move on.
 
As much as I wanted to enjoy Panzer Dragoon Orta, I simply couldn't. I bought it the day it came out only to realize soon after that my taste for old-school gaming had pretty much vanished. The game is really nothing more than an exercise in memorization; when/where enemies will appear, thier patterns, when to switch to a different form, etc... And as great as the art was, some levels just didn't look that great at all.
 
Damn the haters - I'm with Speevy, AC is a good time. I was insanely addicted to it for like a month after I got it. I screwed up by trading too much online, after I got everything I wanted I just stopped playing. I look forward to playing the DS offering with my GF.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
Thinking games, ala Myst, have been routinely dismissed by the "gaming elite" for a long time. So much so, that that criticism I har about Ico gets binned. I don't find the puzzles "last gen" when games of this type are rare and rarely well done. Care to elaborate? I'll agree the comabt leaves something to be desired, but that's hardly the meat of the game, is it? It's mostly there to provide a little variety, and pressure to keep going. When people call the game "boring" I wonder if they like environmental puzzle games. I haven't heard any criticism that comes from the point of view of liking hte genre but disliking the game. I would listen to such criticisms.
Well, I'd rather not go into it again... my own complaints with Ico's design (and why they ultimately don't matter much) were summed up pretty well in this thread.

Still, this sounds like suspiciously like an excuse to "dismiss any criticism as genre misunderstanding" on your part. Moo.


Ignatz Mouse said:
Quick to declare Nintendo the home of the sacred cow? Oh yes. The cannonization of the NES and SNES still runs deep, and it's only after years of being out of the dominatnt spot that the shine is wearing off the mediocrity that was the N64.
I disagree, I actually preferred their more arcadey offerings on N64 to much what had come before on SNES. In many ways it felt like a throwback to their NES software. I'd also argue it's less an issue of people finally coming around than it is Nintendo generally stumbling this generation. N64 has one of the strongest 1st party portfolios out there, GameCube is rather weak by comparison.



Ignatz Mouse said:
Perhaps it's that my view is longer. Not being in touch with the criticisms of the last two years is nothing compared to the 16 or so years before it where Nintendo was treated as the company that could do no wrong.
Well, it's really be the last 4 years or so. And various Nintendo games have buckled under heavy criticism before (Zelda II, Mario Kart 64, Yoshi Story, etc). Don't take this personally but your 'view' seems rooted more resentment going by this... no company's really untouchable.
 
ICO is fine with me. Maybe not deserving of such total worship, but not deserving of as much disdain either. I think it is useful for discussing mainly because it manages to evoke emotion without resorting to any heavy handed narratives. There's no bloated cutscenes like in Metal Gear or Final Fantasy, and no tedious reading like in an RPG or Metroid Prime.

I never understood what was so nut-bustingly awesome about Rez though. It's a very short, very easy shooter with a cool art style. PD Orta kicks my ass, but nabbing 100% shootdown in this game was a cakewalk.

Katamari Damacy has crummy tank controls, crummy camera, and takes too long to become entertaining. It's too difficult to judge whether or not you can run over something so most of the time you spend banging into shit. By the time you're large enough to really wreak havoc, the stage/game is nearly over. I think KD is probably the worst offender in the "People give too much credit because it's kooky and Japanese" category. Most people would probably feel ripped if they paid a full $50 for it.
Folder said:
You miss the point friend.
No one ever offered Animal Crossing protection because it's arty. They offered it because it's hardcore.
AC is not "hardcore". It's about as far as you can get from it, I think. No challenge whatsoever, just a bunch of rote and menial stuff that a few people get obsessed over.

The rest of the AC criticism has already been run over in this thread, I see....with the usual people defending it. "It got a letter from a virtual cat on Presidents' Day! I like decorating my house! Tee hee!"
 
jarrod said:
Well, I'd rather not go into it again... my own complaints with Ico's design (and why they ultimately don't matter much) were summed up pretty well in this thread.

Still, this sounds like suspiciously like an excuse to "dismiss any criticism as genre misunderstanding" on your part. Moo.



I disagree, I actually preferred their more arcadey offerings on N64 to much what had come before on SNES. In many ways it felt like a throwback to their NES software. I'd also argue it's less an issue of people finally coming around than it is Nintendo generally stumbling this generation. N64 has one of the strongest 1st party portfolios out there, GameCube is rather weak by comparison.




Well, it's really be the last 4 years or so. And various Nintendo games have buckled under heavy criticism before (Zelda II, Mario Kart 64, Yoshi Story, etc). Don't take this personally but your 'view' seems rooted more resentment going by this... no company's really untouchable.


Thanks for the pointer to the other thread. That is literally the first critism (other than superficial) of Ico I've read that comes from the point of view of liking the genre. I don't agree with some of it, but some I do.

To address the original poster-- it isn't criticism like yours that gets people into defense mode about games like Rez, Ico, etc.

And well, Nintendo's become "touchable" thank goodness. When I started to slack off on the forums you could still get a lot of amazed responses for dring to criticize Mario64, and I recent got some when I said I didn't like Zelda LTTP (and that was without even criticising it).

Of course, *I* would have the same reaction if somebody put down SMW, YI, or SMB3. Oh well.
 
border said:
The rest of the AC criticism has already been run over in this thread, I see....with the usual people defending it. "It got a letter from a virtual cat on Presidents' Day! I like decorating my house! Tee hee!"



Again, why the need to insult the fans? I understand not liking the game, but there's really no substance to these cheap shots.


What if I said "Tee hee. That windmill was so beautiful. I cried."? That would be just as uncalled for.
 
The fans are the ones claiming that the game is cool because they can decorate their house and have some calendar-triggered events.....I'm just repeating it back. Are they insulting themselves?
 
I've criticized Rez in the past and been told that I don't "get" it. When I ask what's to get, I don't get an answer.

Nonetheless, I love Rez. Great game.
 
border said:
The fans are the ones claiming that the game is cool because they can decorate their house and have some calendar-triggered events.....I'm just repeating it back. Are they insulting themselves?



Well, those are great features. I don't recall becoming Michael Jackson while describing them, however. And AC doesn't celebrate President's day, so you clearly weren't repeating back anything exactly like you read it, but rather mocking the game.
 
That's because picking a relatively obscure and unobserved holiday underscores the silliness of going into a videogame to celebrate any sort of holiday. In retrospect, I wish I had said "Arbor Day".
 
HOLY SHIT, YOU KNOW WHERE ELSE I CAN DECORATE AND HAVE EVENTS!?!?


LIFE.


But then I can't write fake letters to fake furry critters, now can I?

OH WAIT I CAN. YOU LOSE ANIMAL CROSSING
 
jarrod said:
I'm a big Ico fan too, I've gone on about it before. But come on, it's not hard to find rather lacking gameplay components in it's game design... muddy combat and last gen push-puzzles especially. The game succeeds overall though as it's focus really lies elsewhere, it's more than just the sum of it's parts. It's elemental gaming, it transcends traditional gaming in way thanks to it's aesthetic.
Might as well continue conversation from last week, now that it's found a more appropriate place.

I'm curious like Ignatz is about what you'd define as "this gen" puzzle design as an elevated standard clearly distinguished from "last gen push puzzles". I don't recall it being clearly identified in the last thread.

And I still take exception to calling the combat muddy. Maybe its a difference of term usage but when I use the word muddy to describe controls I do that to indicate that controls are somehow unresponsive or imprecise in an inexplicable/indefinite fashion. But when I'm presented with a game like Ico where I'm asked to play the part of an uncoordinated child who occasionally wields a weapon that isn't balanced for his stature against an enemy that lacks substance, I'm not surprised by a certain amount of clumsiness in any combat that ensues. Even so, they don't overburden the combat with Ico's awkwardness, leaving the controls hack and slash simplistic and just about as responsive. I hit the button, he swings the stick. There's a small recovery time as he brings the stick back to home state before I can swing again. But I know why the delay exists and I know the timing to account for it accurately. Its not like Ico is being portrayed as a seasonsed warrior who has more than enough experience to know how to make the most of a backswing. It's not like the game inexplicably introduces lag between one swing and the next or fails to respond for no apparent reason even when you've recovered. You might not find that particularly engaging combat, but I wouldn't call it muddy.
 
I was dissing ICO back in the day when it got you gang assaulted on the forums.

But yeah, that game was pure drek. I'm the only person alive rooting for SCEA to actually reject Wanda, I think. Oh the threads of crying GAFFERS!
 
Actually, my favorite game Winning Eleven series is getting up there. No matter what I think, there are always some defenders saying this is the best football game ever and it's okay.

For me, WE stands the by far best PS2 game for good, but there are things that nees to be fixed, and stuff konami should really put some $$$ to aquire. I do not wish spend hours edit everything just to get my teams right, and no online function for WE in north america is just pitiful. Not having world-wide launch and always keeping the best version only to JP is not fair. (such as 7 International JP and 8 LE.) Plus, there's always some sort of quirk and balance issues, not to mention sometimes their stats are just way wrong and wrong. (Morientes, Rooney and Robben comes into my mind.)

lachesis
 
lachesis said:
Actually, my favorite game Winning Eleven series is getting up there. No matter what I think, there are always some defenders saying this is the best football game ever and it's okay.

For me, WE stands the by far best PS2 game for good, but there are things that nees to be fixed, and stuff konami should really put some $$$ to aquire. I do not wish spend hours edit everything just to get my teams right, and no online function for WE in north america is just pitiful. Not having world-wide launch and always keeping the best version only to JP is not fair. (such as 7 International JP and 8 LE.) Plus, there's always some sort of quirk and balance issues, not to mention sometimes their stats are just way wrong and wrong. (Morientes, Rooney and Robben comes into my mind.)

lachesis
But I think everyone would agree with you on that...
 
I've always liked rail shooters, but where Rez definitely shines is in the music and art of the game. As a long time follower of electronic music (and one who attends clubs/raves every now and then) the game has its definite appeal to me, but if you don't really care for that "scene" then the game may seem mediocre. Plus, the boss of level 4 (the running man) is probably the craziest boss fight I've ever seen with all the stuff going on!

I really liked ICO - one of the most emotionally draining endings in a game, though I agree the puzzles weren't anything too amazing, I think they tried to make the puzzles more within the environment, rather than being too obvious. The majority of Zelda games have better and more thought provoking puzzles, for instance. The whole minimalism of the game and the fact you were basically thrown into this huge castle without any explanation (no 30 min long cut scenes - very few cut scenes, even at that) made me much more eager to explore, it evoked the same feeling I had when I was 6 and got the original Zelda as a Christmas gift (and one of the first NES games I owned)

A good art style and lots of polish makes games that much better - not every game has to be extremely "deep" to be fun.
 
People don't like Animal Crossing because it is not a traditional game. It has nothing to do with the art style or graphics. They hate the fact that there is no end, and the core of the game is fueled by your own creativity (or the people you play with). Personally, it's one of my favorite games and I can't wait for the DS version.
 
Rez and Lumines are as much about the music as the game. Stripping them down to their basics (stick man shoots stuff / average puzzle game) is pointless because both games were designed with the audio in mind.

It's not a case of the emperor having no clothes, he's dressed fine, it's just what he's wearing isn't your cup of tea.
 
0wn3d said:
People don't like Animal Crossing because it is not a traditional game. It has nothing to do with the art style or graphics.
....or inventive gameplay or fun or objectives.

Others say that it is a capitalist satire, but I think it is more like "Waiting for Godot KIDZ", where you get to play the role of Vladimir or Estragon. You sit in a drab, abstract world trying to communicate with other beings that only barely seem to comprehend or respond to you. Tasks and chores are repeated to no end -- "habit is the great deadener". You sit around waiting for something big, something of significance, but the anticipation is all for nothing. Time treads on and there's little change, and little hope of escape. "Nothing happens -- no one comes, no one goes. It's awful." Some abandon this existential nightmare, while others continue to log in....
 
I admit that the concept of people playing Animal Crossing alone everyday, decorating an imaginary room no one else will ever see and conversing with characters that dangle from rigid dialogue trees, is somewhat frightening. However, that’s no reason to discredit what the game is actually attempting to do. I picked up Animal Crossing way back when it came out and thoroughly enjoyed it for over 2 months, which is a lot longer than most games last. My girlfriend and roommate played the entire time as well, and we got at least four or five other people significantly involved in the game during that period of time. To me Animal Crossing is about the fun I had playing with other people. It’s a multiplayer game, and it was clearly designed that way. The game became a source of artistic expression, light competition, and most importantly an arena for jokes with no consequences. Towards the end, the game deteriorated into a pure abuse of the system for laughs, as we were signing on as one another, jumping the time counter by dozens of years, etc… but we were still having a blast. The game’s been packed away for about 2 years now, but it still stands out as one of the highlights for me this gen. It’s really just a tool set for having fun, and you will enjoy it as much as your imagination allows you to.

People who describe animal Crossing as a series of menial tasks with no reward are really way off base. First off, do any games reward you for the work you are doing? Is getting a plus 6 sword to replace your plus five sword really that mind blowing, particularly when the sword doesn’t actually exist? If you want to talk about menial tasks with no reward, look at games like Diablo. I’m exploring a maze, I’m clicking on enemies, I’m rewarded with a numerically more powerful character that still controls exactly the same…

Why pay money for this when you can play a better one for free?[/QUOTE]

It’s worth noting that Animal Crossing doesn’t force you to do anything; there are no menial tasks in the game. If you don’t pay Tom Nook a dime, no one cares. You are completely free to do what ever you want, with absolutely no objective, and you’re rewarded no matter how you decide tom play. For me that is part of what made the game enjoyable. Animal Crossing is often compared to the Sims, but the two games couldn’t be more different. Among the main differences, The Sims does indeed force a player to complete menial tasks, Sims can even die if those tasks aren’t completed. The worst thing Animal Crossing will throw at you is a couple of cockroaches for not playing often.

Most people in this thread seem to think the only reason people were playing Animal Crossing was to unlock the NES emulators. When I played the game, I never touched the things. I thought they played terribly on the cube controller, and found the world outside the games much more enjoyable. But Animal Crossing as a game allows people who enjoy unlockables such as NES games to be just involved as people who want nothing to do with them.

I’d be the last person to say Animal Crossing is above criticism. If you ask me to write a list of what I enjoyed in the game, followed by a list of complaints the complaint list would be far longer. I see Animal Crossing as an experiment gone right, an indication of things that aren’t quite here yet, but will one day be perfected. And yes I realize there are other games like it, and based on current trends I don’t see Nintendo being the ones to bring this idea to fruition. But one day someone will expand upon this idea in full and make a game that appeals to people who aren’t just looking for reflex tests or experience calculators; A game that focuses on your relationship with other players and the environment in a fun and accessible manner.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
I recent got some when I said I didn't like Zelda LTTP (and that was without even criticising it).

uh... LttP gets attacked all the time. I personally hold it as one of my favorite games and the best of the zelda series and I've had many arguments on here because of it. Drinky alone generates massive amounts of LttP hate that radiates throughout the forum.
 
to be honest, I don't normally sell my games but you know what, I've been debating pawning off my ICO (with art cards) on ebay. The only reason why I haven't is cause its meant to be this SUPERB AAA+ game that is so great. Some folks have said that on return to the title, they've fallen for it. I don't know. I know i'll profit if I sell my copy.. but damn, its funny that I think that whenever I look at the game
 
Folder said:
ICO. It’s quite boring. Not really a step forward in digital art. Puzzle-driven platformer with an interesting mechanic.
REZ. It’s quite boring, nothing much happens. A stick man shoots stuff.
Lumines. An average puzzler.

<b>
Imagine if REZ for instance, had been released with a different, more traditional style sheet.
</b>

:)


You might as well say:

"Basement Jaxx live - ehh, just some flashy lights and bunch of sweaty people. Quite boring!"


Games like ICO, REZ, and Lumines are much more about the experience than the nuts and bolts 'gameplay'.

Infact, you seem to have missed the glaring point in all your examples - that all these games feature *such* simplistic 'gameplay', and that's because the aesthetic of the game world is all important. I think the ICO directors even coined a term for it - subtractive design.

Don't think for one minute that all the thousands of people who played and loved, and revere all those games are on some high. They probably chose to lay back and accept these games are intended, i.e. as first and foremost as experiences.

Those with more traditional expectations, who try to reduce games to their nuts and bolts ingredients and define arbritrary concepts like 'gameplay' probably missed the point.
 
You can be critical of anything you like.

Hell you can shit on the work of the masters of fine art too and you'll have as little ground to stand on.


ICO is a test game to see if you're truly a feeling human.

You failed.
:D
 
0wn3d said:
People don't like Animal Crossing because it is not a game.
The obligatory 'fixed'.
PkunkFury said:
It’s worth noting that Animal Crossing doesn’t force you to do anything; there are no menial tasks in the game. ... You are completely free to do what ever you want, with absolutely no objective
and that's why it is not a game.
 
border said:
....or inventive gameplay or fun or objectives.

Others say that it is a capitalist satire, but I think it is more like "Waiting for Godot KIDZ", where you get to play the role of Vladimir or Estragon. You sit in a drab, abstract world trying to communicate with other beings that only barely seem to comprehend or respond to you. Tasks and chores are repeated to no end -- "habit is the great deadener". You sit around waiting for something big, something of significance, but the anticipation is all for nothing. Time treads on and there's little change, and little hope of escape. "Nothing happens -- no one comes, no one goes. It's awful." Some abandon this existential nightmare, while others continue to log in....

:lol

maybe the game is secretly ironic?
 
Gamers with bad taste?

ICO= A cute Love story, cool game, really good art.

Sega in general a few years back tore it up as far as art direction goes, Cosmic Smash/Rez/GunValkyrie/Orta. Too bad about Sega Rosso, UGA and Smilebit :(

Sometimes the simplest of gameplay = the best :)
 
I don't know if the original poster was ever set straight or not, but ICO most certainly offers music (including one of the best ending themes I've heard).

Regardless, I totally disagree with the original poster on all points...but I'd rather not discuss it. :P
 
Folder said:
Imagine if REZ for instance, had been released with a different, more traditional style sheet.
This sentence illustrates the poster's total misunderstanding of the games. Complaining that they are immune from criticism because they are considered art, but then saying that the games would be nothing without that art. Well, duh! Mona Lisa is just a picture of a woman looking at you. It may as well be a boring old family photo. I'm sure that would go down a treat with art lovers everywhere.

Specifically regarding Ico - if you took away this game's amazing visuals and subtle emotions, you would still have some of the best 3D interactive environments in gaming. If Castlevania could even come close to Ico in terms of control, we could have a decent 3D version on our hands.
 
dog$ said:
The obligatory 'fixed'.
and that's why it is not a game.



You are not the measuring stick by which a game is judged. Game designers and gamers who take an active interest in interpreting the boundaries which games can break down are. New generations of industry-defining moments are made with the combining, inventing, and reinventing of genres.

What was a platformer in 1996? Super Mario 64. What is it now? Jak 3. Prince of Persia. Combat, free-roaming, and various other elements.

What was an action/adventure game in 1998? The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Today it's GTA: San Andreas and Metal Gear Solid 3: The Snake Eater. Cinematic, dynamic, and completely random tailored to specific playing styles.

What was a first person shooter in 1997? 007 Goldeneye. Doom. Duke Nukem. Various others.

Now? Halo 2. Half-Life 2. Actual standards for technology and gameplay design demanded by gamers. Not just a fun grenade-throwing competition.

A console strategy game in 2000? More like a port of a PC game. Today, it's Gladius and Pikmin 2.


The more we get unique games, the more the face of gaming evolves. We need that. And yeah, half the people aren't going to get the weird games like Animal Crossing or Katamari Damacy. But what would be infinitely worse is if these games weren't released at all.
 
Vibri said:
You might as well say:

"Basement Jaxx live - ehh, just some flashy lights and bunch of sweaty people. Quite boring!"


Games like ICO, REZ, and Lumines are much more about the experience than the nuts and bolts 'gameplay'.

Infact, you seem to have missed the glaring point in all your examples - that all these games feature *such* simplistic 'gameplay', and that's because the aesthetic of the game world is all important. I think the ICO directors even coined a term for it - subtractive design.

Don't think for one minute that all the thousands of people who played and loved, and revere all those games are on some high. They probably chose to lay back and accept these games are intended, i.e. as first and foremost as experiences.

Those with more traditional expectations, who try to reduce games to their nuts and bolts ingredients and define arbritrary concepts like 'gameplay' probably missed the point.

To me someone that can't reduce something to its basics in order to examine it and find why it works simply doesn't care or wants to remain oblivious or simply can't comprehend the subject matter. There is no 'magic' or 'soul' to a video game. It is completely merely the sum of its parts. And as such for close examination those parts should both be examined on their own as well as their interactions.

But using the term, "for the experiance," is the same as saying, "I liked the game and have no fucking clue why." Sometimes being ignorant like this is a good thing. I love the ability that I can't see any of the crap dark talks about when it comes to games graphically. I pity dark in that way. But because I am ignorant I stay the hell away from graphic whore arguments because despite what I know and see with my own eyes I know he's right and I'm wrong. Giving out your opinion is perfectly fine but saying, "The art is good," or the game is good because of the 'experiance' in a meaningful argument/discussion is pretty worthless.

When artists look at something they like, they don't just say its awesome because I say so, they break it down and can explain very specifically why they like it. If they can't provide specifics, they are just acting like artsy douchebags, not artists.

I wish people would stop saying, "I like the art" as well. Though thats more of a personal pet peeve than anything else. Explain WHY you like it. In what specifics. Perhaps you think the cinemetography in Ico was a new experiance to behold. Why? What camera shots were used that you particularly liked? In what way were they being used to display a certain scene. Why was that camera angle better than any other they might have used? What were the emotions instilled because of it? What tricks do you think they used to make sure they got that emotion across? Could they have done something slightly different to make that emotion even more powerful?

Giving impressions about a game or giving your opinion where the only thing you say about the art is, "it has good art," would be akin to a review saying, "It has good gameplay. End of review."
 
Nerevar said:
:lol

maybe the game is secretly ironic?
No secrets, just people who may have missed the message. Depending on how you interpret, the game attempts to underscore the meaninglessness and futility of either capitalism or existence/communication. This is done in part by reducing everything to the level of a videogame, where everything becomes trivial. Each trinket you collect and each day you live is ultimately worthless, and it makes the player reflect on the triviality of their own habits and life. Some however, find the tedious life sim comforting (perhaps out of escapist tendencies or the desire to have the nerve-racking necessities of life reduced to triviality).

Irony is only created by the players. Thousands of people popped in today to check and see if they got a virtual Valentine from a super-deformed puppy dog or something. These obsessive tendencies are perhaps what prevents them from getting a real Valentine. Now that's ironic ;)
 
Out of all the threads on GA threads about "GAMES I DONT LIKE & Y DO STUPID OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THEm?" are by far the worst. Carry on, you don't like X game and other people do. Wow, congrats. Must mean you have discerning taste. Point proven. I don't like meta-posts either, but the rash of these kinds of threads means I can't resist (e.g. Y DOES RE4/MGS3/GTA SUX 'N EVERY1 LIKES IT? I HAVE GOOD TASTE U DO NOT).
 
The continued mocking is no more compelling than saying "Thousands of gamers got a kick out of rolling into a stupid ball for points."

I love Winning Eleven 8. Maybe I should be playing soccer instead. The only useless thing is this tired argument. I enjoy Animal Crossing. You may like a game that not everyone feels the same way about. In fact, I'm certain you do. I don't hold that against you, or any other fans of that game.

It's called an opinion, and at the very least one thing we can agree on is that Animal Crossing made an impression on both of us. Your limited interpretation is one perspective, and I have mine. Neither one is wrong. But I guarantee that you never forget playing it. And just like Majora's Mask which bitterly divides Zelda purists and PN03 which shooter fans swear is worth a try, we move on with our lives. Just gamers. No need for insults. My real life is just fine, thanks.
 
Speevy said:
The continued mocking is no more compelling than saying "Thousands of gamers got a kick out of rolling into a stupid ball for points."

I love Winning Eleven 8. Maybe I should be playing soccer instead. The only useless thing is this tired argument. I enjoy Animal Crossing. You may like a game that not everyone feels the same way about. In fact, I'm certain you do. I don't hold that against you, or any other fans of that game.

It's called an opinion, and at the very least one thing we can agree on is that Animal Crossing made an impression on both of us. Your limited interpretation is one perspective, and I have mine. Neither one is wrong. But I guarantee that you never forget playing it. And just like Majora's Mask which bitterly divides Zelda purists and PN03 which shooter fans swear is worth a try, we move on with our lives. Just gamers. No need for insults. My real life is just fine, thanks.

insults are only bad if they are of the direct, "you are a fucking moron kind." As long as the insults are creative and somehow tie in to the argument they can make a boring argument hilarious =)

don't treat them as personal insults, think of them as comic relief from the serious discussion at hand. Laugh, make your own comback, and tie it into your own arguments. Rather than try and insult and degrade your opponent, think of it as a competition. If you can insult him in a way that makes him laugh at himself, you win.
 
Duck of Death said:
Animal Crossing is awful. It is a reasonably successful simulation of capitalism, but it fails as a game.

Why pay money for a simulation when you can play a better one for free?
That game was easy. You just blow up civilians to make others terrorists, then you blow up the terrorists.

Drinky, I haven't played much Diablo 2 but I've seen friends play it. Isn't Diablo 2 the definition of OCD gameplay?
 
border said:
No secrets, just people who may have missed the message. Depending on how you interpret, the game attempts to underscore the meaninglessness and futility of either capitalism or existence/communication. This is done in part by reducing everything to the level of a videogame, where everything becomes trivial. Each trinket you collect and each day you live is ultimately worthless, and it makes the player reflect on the triviality of their own habits and life. Some however, find the tedious life sim comforting (perhaps out of escapist tendencies or the desire to have the nerve-racking necessities of life reduced to triviality).

I'd still like to know how a game with no clear objective can be considered tedious? You determine the objective for yourself in animal crossing. If you want to play a tedious game, it is there for you. But no one is forcing you to do any sort of menial work.

I think it's more likely that you just aren't creative enough to understand the game offers more than fetch quests to those playing with the right people. It wasn't my favorite game this gen by any stretch, but it certainly doesn't deserve the harsh critisism you're dealing out either.

Each trinket you collect and day you live is ultimately worthless in animal crossing just like each trinket you collect and each day you play is ultimately meaningless in Final Fantasy. If you've beaten the game, why go through the tedium of finding all of the secert weapons? Why replay the game even? You know the story now. Every game is just as "meaningless" as the one before it in that sense. The only thing I ever get out of a game is the memories of playing. With most games those memories are scripted by the designers. Square wanted me to remeber what happens to Aries well after the game is over, etc.

In animal crossing those memories were pretty well created by myself and the people I played with. Arguably, I'd say i got something more meaningful out of Animal Crossing than i do out of other games. It's cool that you can't understand this, you probably haven't played the game with other people, but it doesn't mean you need to detract from those who enjoyed it.
 
Thank you Pkunkfurry. That's exactly what I've been saying. So many people in this thread act as though I'm forcing them to like AC at gunpoint. All I said is that it's worthy of no more dissenting opinion than any other game. To some, it's brilliant. Other people don't get what's so great about it at all. But the fact that this disparity exists means that Nintendo can count their game as a success, and work to improve the next one. AC is like you said, all about creativity, which inspires a greater depth of role-playing.

Anyone ever build theme shops? Candy stores? I'm building a house for Donkey Kong soon, complete with all kinds of drums, a guitar, the DK NES game, and special wallpaper/carpet. I think I might include those fruit-themed chairs and tables too. See, this idea might sound creepy to some people. But to me, it's just part of the imagination that Animal Crossing lets you bring to life.
 
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