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[Teknopathetic]

Yeah, but he already mentioned those already.

 

[Folder]

You adopt this semi-relativist posture but the language you use still assumes that you have access to to some absolute truth that the haters just don't get:

Other people don't get what's so great about it at all....as though you know THE FACT that it's great and others are just unable to arrive at this knowledge. Also reeks of the condescension you say you abhor.

Agrees with *der nemesis brother.

 

[Crankenstein]

:lol Folder has truly gone off his rocker.

Folder is laying some smackdown on Drinky. Drinky getting run reminds me of the old GAF. (I'm new to the new forum). Drinky usually does a good job of standing up for himself , but this time it seems Folder has Drinky back on his heels in this thread. Folder! Drinky! Fight! Let's keep it clean and no bans.

 

[AstroLad]

Yeah, but he already mentioned those already.

I wasn't referring to "awful computerized hex-world turn-based war games" but point taken. :lol

Folder is laying some smackdown on Drinky. Drinky getting run reminds me of the old GAF. (I'm new to the new forum). Drinky usually does a good job of standing up for himself , but this time it seems Folder has Drinky back on his heels in this thread. Folder! Drinky! Fight! Let's keep it clean and no bans.

Who were you on the old boards?

 

[skip]

Folder is laying some smackdown on Drinky. Drinky getting run reminds me of the old GAF. (I'm new to the new forum). Drinky usually does a good job of standing up for himself , but this time it seems Folder has Drinky back on his heels in this thread. Folder! Drinky! Fight! Let's keep it clean and no bans.

uh...what?

 

[Speevy]

You adopt this semi-relativist posture but the language you use still assumes that you have access to to some absolute truth that the haters just don't get:

Other people don't get what's so great about it at all....as though you know THE FACT that it's great and others are just unable to arrive at this knowledge. Also reeks of the condescension you say you abhor.

Not at all. I'm no better than anyone else. I just don't think the argument is going to change anyone's mind one way or the other. Anyone who's played Animal Crossing knows which side of the fence they're on, so I'm glad that Drinky's at least played it.

It's not a fact that Animal Crossing is great. If I said that previously, it was a mistake in judgement. What the game is (as a matter of fact) is a departure from what Nintendo usually creates, which is in itself bound to stir up controversy.

 

[Crankenstein]

Who were you on the old boards?

Crankenstein. I wasn't high profile.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

...a thousand awful computerized hex-world turn-based war games come to mind immediately.

Damn you! The Japanese version ships tomorrow*.


*see shameless pimping of Dai Senryaku and it's hex grid awfulness at a GAF near you.

 

[slayn]

this thread rocks if only for telling me about Umihara Kawase... please tell me more of these hard core games I wasn't aware existed.

 

[brooklyngooner]

Folder is laying some smackdown on Drinky. Drinky getting run reminds me of the old GAF. (I'm new to the new forum). Drinky usually does a good job of standing up for himself , but this time it seems Folder has Drinky back on his heels in this thread. Folder! Drinky! Fight! Let's keep it clean and no bans.

What are you on about?

 

[Teknopathetic]

I think that's some hardcore sarcasm.

 

[boutrosinit]

ICO. It’s quite boring. Not really a step forward in digital art. Puzzle-driven platformer with an interesting mechanic.
REZ. It’s quite boring, nothing much happens. A stick man shoots stuff.
Lumines. An average puzzler.

However, because all these games have been slapped with the art tag, they suddenly transcend gaming boundaries and if you criticise them, you’re too stupid to get them properly.

You know the emperor? He’s got some great new threads I hear…

Please understand, I have played all three games above thoroughly, (Lumines less than perhaps I should) and enjoyed them all, as they’re all great games. But the militant protection offered by hardcore gamers to them is ridiculous.

Imagine if REZ for instance, had been released with a different, more traditional style sheet.

Or am I wrong? Wouldn’t be the first time? I think that Gran Turismo 3 is a more important gaming achievement that either REZ or ICO.

Thoughts?

YOU LIE!

You spoke to me about this last week and nearly had a heart attack when I told you I found ICO boring. Ha HAR!

Yum. Don't those words taste GOOD.

And Rez is an ace old-school shoot em up, though it needed more levels like the fifth stage. I had great fun with it. Guess it's an acquired taste. And it's pretty fucking ace when stoned and trying to shoot things to the beat of the backing soundtrack.

You do have a good point overall. Edge is very annoying for being a great contributor in this blind and elitist worshipping of art, despite it not being that much fun.

 

[chespace]

Yeah, but he already mentioned those already.

Seems to me the Japanese are more prolific when it comes to hardcore games that require precise, almost machine-like, reaction times.

While western developers go the route of sheer number crunching, both in terms of technology and content, when it comes to hardcore games.

 

[Ristamar]

"What are some other western developers and their hardcore games?"

Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale, Age Of Shadows/Disciples, as stated earlier, Alpha Centauri, etc.? The flight sim market's pretty dead, but those as well.

Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are hardcore? That's news to me.

 

[NLB2]

Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are hardcore? That's news to me.

Why not? Hardcore is one of those words that are meaningless because everyone has their own meaning for them.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are hardcore?"

I'd say so, as far as the actual game mechanics, what with it being *heavy* in DnD geekery. Unlike KOTOR which slightly simplifies some things (partly due to it being based on 3rd ed.), THACO, etc. aren't things that are really all too easy to digest to the common folk.

 

[Ristamar]

It was more of an inquiry than a challenge. I love those games, yet I don't think they're difficult or complex (of course, I used to play D&D). I certainly never considered them hardcore, nor considered myself hardcore for playing them.

I'm obliviously hardcore! :lol

 

[Teknopathetic]

"It was more of an inquiry than a challenge. I love those games, yet I don't think they're difficult or complex (of course, I used to play D&D)."


Well there you go .

 

[slayn]

It was more of an inquiry than a challenge. I love those games, yet I don't think they're difficult or complex (of course, I used to play D&D). I certainly never considered them hardcore, nor considered myself hardcore for playing them.

I'm obliviously hardcore! :lol

the veyr point of it being 'hardcore' is that BG2 and such are difficult to understand at their deepest levels unless you have prior experiance in the subject matter to be ready yourself. I suppose the better way to say it, is hardcore games have pre-requesites that you must fit in order to enjoy them while non-hard-core games are pick up and play.

 

[MoxManiac]

The DnD-based RPGs can be a little daunting to those that are unfamiliar with DnD rulesets; I think i'd classify them hardcore.

 

[Ristamar]

Interesting point. I may have to get a friend that has not had any exposure to D&D or P&P RPGs to play BG or BGII... see how he handles it.

 

[Shompola]

Are people still playing MUD's hardcore?

 

[Ristamar]

Are people still playing MUD's hardcore?

More like hopeless addicts. Then again, I suppose that's pretty much the same thing.

I'm glad the MUD scene is still enduring in the face of all the MMORPGs on the market.

 

[Folder]

YOU LIE!

You spoke to me about this last week and nearly had a heart attack when I told you I found ICO boring. Ha HAR!

That's becuase I think it's amazing. Thanks boutros, for blowing my secret.
*makes note never to tell boutros anything. For the tenth time* ;-)

Yum. Don't those words taste GOOD.

In your dreams!

And Rez is an ace old-school shoot em up, though it needed more levels like the fifth stage. I had great fun with it. Guess it's an acquired taste. And it's pretty fucking ace when stoned and trying to shoot things to the beat of the backing soundtrack.

That's what everyone says. Not as good as most decent shooters. Fucking bottom line mate, you know it.

You do have a good point overall. Edge is very annoying for being a great contributor in this blind and elitist worshipping of art, despite it not being that much fun.

Obv

 

[Drinky Crow]

Folder: So you knew what the games were about, and yet you whine about fucking name dropping when we're on a "hardcore" gaming forum? I typed that shit up solely because you appeared to be utterly fucking clueless about games I figured were largely common knowledge around here -- and I was RIGHT. Thanks for wasting my time.

skip: Crankenstein's an old-world nutswinger from about 2-3 years ago. He used to pull the same shit back in the day where he'd rah-rah whoever was getting that week's whipping.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Reflexes and number crunching aren't necessarily the ONLY barriers to entry. Language, visual style, and theme can be just as impenetrable as any database or reflex mechanic.

And, as ever, "hardcore" isn't always good.

 

[AssMan]

Well thanks to GAF, art is the most important thing to me on the technical side. I won't buy a game unless the art is very appealing. =\

 

[Folder]

Folder: So you knew what the games were about, and yet you whine about fucking name dropping when we're on a "hardcore" gaming forum? I typed that shit up solely because you appeared to be utterly fucking clueless about games I figured were largely common knowledge around here -- and I was RIGHT. Thanks for wasting my time.

Mate, calm down. As I said (twice now) you didn't explain your definition of hardcore, you just dropped names. And as hardcore as this forums is, I Doubt your efforts have gone to waste. You never actually answered the core question about sacred cow art games though...
Perhaps you need to WRITE is up as that it what we were discussing. I still assert that you sought to derail the thread to do a bit of 'look how hardcore I am' willy-waving.

Prove me wrong...














PS. Five tags within one week. A GAF record?

 

[boutrosinit]

That's becuase I think it's amazing. Thanks boutros, for blowing my secret.
*makes note never to tell boutros anything. For the tenth time* ;-)

;-)

That's what everyone says. Not as good as most decent shooters. Fucking bottom line mate, you know it.

Well I've honestly not played a decent 'face-on' shooter since the first Starfox and Rez filled that niche for me while giving me a game to show off to the stoner aussies I lived with. I wouldn't compare it to shooters like R-Type Delta or Ikaruga as the feel is entirely different, but I did enjoy it immensely and - at least when I first played it - it had the feeling of something new and something missed. Now on reflection, I enjoy it as a bare bones arcade shooter with visuals and music I can get into. Even unlocked everything including that stupid moroloean thing from SC5.

 

[JackFrost2012]

Folder, given that your intentionally flamebaiting thread has now ballooned to 5 pages of ICO and Rez bashing (as well as a smittering of ICO and Rez praising), continuing to insist they're unassailable sacred cows is somewhat disingenuous.

They're games. Games other people like and you don't. You are not a unique snowflake whose opinion matters more than everyone else's, so get over yourself and let the thread die.

 

[Endymion]

And Ico at least gets defended fiercely, particularly using Ueda's subtractive design mandate as a failsafe band-aid to counter any criticism of it's rather medicore game mechanics. Ico succeeds almost entirely due to it's aesthetic, it's style as susbstance. Which is something the Sony faithful evidently can't stomach.

Yes, what's missing is enemy targeting, double jump, jump on walls, ultra deep combo system, keys, 20 different enemy types, 40 different weapons and magic, ultra reponsive controls, some bosses here and there, a bit of stealth, coins to collect and lots of things to blow up. Here are superb game mechanics.


Not true, of course.

Till we will consider games like mere products where "the more content, the better" and where all that matters are controls, number of enemies, number of attacks, bonuses, bosses instead of a game's identity, this industry will never truly grow.

 

[Folder]

Folder, given that your intentionally flamebaiting thread has now ballooned to 5 pages of ICO and Rez bashing (as well as a smittering of ICO and Rez praising), continuing to insist they're unassailable sacred cows is somewhat disingenuous.

Games slapped with an art tag are protected by the gaming hardcore. This is a fact. It's something I've been wondering about for sometime. Behave Jack and stop your crying. Asserting that any given debat has come to it's natural conclusion, when it clearly hasn't, is disingenuous.

They're games. Games other people like and you don't. You are not a unique snowflake whose opinion matters more than everyone else's, so get over yourself and let the thread die.

Is my response to Drinky not valid?
And other than complain about the thread, which has been both enjoyable and educational you have deemed fit to contribute nothing. Not much more to say to you on this one really. Becuase other than complain about the thread you have deemed fit to contribute nothing.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Are people still playing MUD's hardcore?

Hells yeah!

Well.. not as of this current moment, but like every few months, I always get sucked back into KoBrA...

 

[Folder]

...

*tumbleweed*

 

[JackFrost2012]

*tumbleweed*

Sorry, I was busy contributing nothing to your piece-of-shit thread.

What's there to say? Your argument is that ICO and Rez are "protected" and above reproach, yet when you tyr to goad me into posting, your argument is that lots of people have been discussing the titles in your thread. Which means that your original thesis is wrong, because the games are being discussed just fine. So what do I possibly need to contribute?

This is fucking stupid.

 

[kaching]

Games slapped with an art tag are protected by the gaming hardcore.

So...you're saying the people in this very thread who aren't protecting games like Rez and Ico and who are pointing out perceived flaws/shortcomings in those games aren't part of the gaming hardcore?

 

[JackFrost2012]

So...you're saying the people in this very thread who aren't protecting games like Rez and Ico and who are pointing out perceived flaws/shortcomings in those games aren't part of the gaming hardcore?

Precicely. It's not fair to say that Rez and Ico occupy this special imaginary place in the gaming elite's mind. They're just games people like, or don't. I like both but I don't care if you don't.

 

[jarrod]

Yes, what's missing is enemy targeting, double jump, jump on walls, ultra deep combo system, keys, 20 different enemy types, 40 different weapons and magic, ultra reponsive controls, some bosses here and there, a bit of stealth, coins to collect and lots of things to blow up. Here are superb game mechanics.


Not true, of course.

Till we will consider games like mere products where "the more content, the better" and where all that matters are controls, number of enemies, number of attacks, bonuses, bosses instead of a game's identity, this industry will never truly grow.

Funny thing that I totally agree with you. And if you took a second to read my posts on the matter you'd likely understand that.

I love Ico (and Rez for that matter) but I'm not unwilling to examine deeper like some. Hell, Majora's Mask has it's faults too (too few dungeons, unforgiving learning curve, simple world design, a generally overwhelming introduction, hand me down mechanics, etc) and I think that's probably the best game Nintendo's ever made. The point was that some games simply aren't allowed to be criticized by the hardcore fanbase (which is usually platform oriented too) in any respect. That's what I take issue with, and the art/intetion angle is taken far to often for Ico in particular, citing Ueda's "we made it play bad on purpose" interpretion as a universal band-aid to absolve any game design shortfalls.

 

[Blackace]

Say you didn't like the End boss battle in MSG3 because then all every Tom, dick, and Harry. Tries to tell you, you did have fun and that is the best boss battle..
"you don't know how to have fun when you play video games I wish Kojima would bust a nut in my face so I can see where he is coming from!" -MGS fanboy, and The End battle supporter

 

[JackFrost2012]

I love Ico (and Rez for that matter) but I'm not unwilling to examine deeper like some. Hell, Majora's Mask has it's faults too (too few dungeons, unforgiving learning curve, simple world design, a generally overwhelming introduction, hand me down mechanics, etc) and I think that's probably the best game Nintendo's ever made. The point was that some games simply aren't allowed to be criticized by the hardcore fanbase (which is usually platform oriented too) in any respect. That's what I take issue with, and the art/intetion angle is taken far to often for Ico in particular, citing Ueda's "we made it play bad on purpose" interpretion as a universal band-aid to absolve any game design shortfalls.

I TOTALLY APPROVE OF NOT LIKING ICO

IF YOU DON'T LIKE ICO THAT'S A-OKAY BY ME

THERE IS NO SUCH FUCKING THING AS A GAME FOR EVERYBODY

'"!#"!#'"!$)(&"!'%()"!(%)"!

 

[Folder]

Precicely. It's not fair to say that Rez and Ico occupy this special imaginary place in the gaming elite's mind.

You're right, it's not fair. It's a statement of fact.

They're just games people like, or don't. I like both but I don't care if you don't.

You sir, are a fucking genius.

 

[JackFrost2012]

You're right, it's not fair. It's a statement of fact.

 

[Odnetnin]

jesus what a bunch of nancies, especially folder. Since when is any game "not criticizable". Its a flawed argument to begin with. There'll be people who just aren't make for certain games and vice versa. Just like movies or music.

Stupid thread.

 

[Folder]

Not to mention an eloquent literary heavyweight in a debate…

*begins The Slow Clap*

 

[Matlock]

THIS IS A THREAD DEDICATED TO A PERSONIFICATION OF THE PERSONAL FABLE

 

[JackFrost2012]

Not to mention an eloquent literary heavyweight in a debate…

*begins The Slow Clap*

It's not like you're listening to a fucking word anyone's saying in this thread, anyways. Since you're bound to mock me no matter what, I might as well save my time and typing.

 

[chespace]

It's not like you're listening to a fucking word anyone's saying in this thread, anyways. Since you're bound to mock me no matter what, I might as well save my time and typing.

I think you're just ballooning his ego now by growing his flamebait thread. The guy's a dick. Let it rest. We've all been sp0ng3d.

 

[JackFrost2012]

I think you're just ballooning his ego now by growing his flamebait thread. The guy's a dick. Let it rest. We've all been sp0ng3d.

Good idea. One last post, though:

B. Trolling

Trolling is considered to be the act of purposely being disingenuous to an active discussion. Negative commentary on given topics is by no means disallowed; however, such comments should attempt to be substantiated.

 

[Folder]

It's not like you're listening to a fucking word anyone's saying in this thread, anyways. Since you're bound to mock me no matter what, I might as well save my time and typing.

But the point is that you didn't actually say anything. You seem to have come to the conclusion that this is about the merits of ICO/REZ... It's not. It's about their status as untouchable, at least in the more pretentious (and bandwagon happy) elements of the gaming press. Of course there will be dissenting voices in forums. But any flaws they may have are consistently overlooked because they are so artsy and wonderful. Look at the coverage of Wanda for instance. It’s something of a joke. The game’s never even been seen and it’s already assured top-tier marks that I expect will overlook any flaws. Simply because it’s stabled with ICO and therefore shares its protection.

I think you're just ballooning his ego now by growing his flamebait thread. The guy's a dick. Let it rest. We've all been sp0ng3d.

It’s not a flamebait thread. Read from the beginning. As I have said many times, I like both the key games mentioned though it bothers me that they are afforded blind protection in the press and by some elements in the gaming community. This happens. All the time. I was just wondering if it’s right/healthy for the games industry as part of a valid discussion. You come in and call me a dick. Um, great…

Good idea. One last post, though:

B. Trolling

Trolling is considered to be the act of purposely being disingenuous to an active discussion. Negative commentary on given topics is by no means disallowed; however, such comments should attempt to be substantiated.

Perhaps the most desperate "I'm out of my depth, should have kept quiet as have nothing to actually contribute" thread end plea I've seen on GAF to date.

 

[kaching]

Games slapped with an art tag are protected by the gaming hardcore. This is a fact.

I'd still like a more direct response to the query I made a few posts up. There are several people on the first page of this thread alone who aren't protecting either game. Is the assumption then that they aren't part of the gaming hardcore?