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AusGAF 10 - Node Country for Old Men

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Planet_JASE

Member
The way things have been going the last 12 months, that 1Up reunion podcast is becoming more and more possible...

Also, it sucks to hear about all those people losing their jobs. Horrible, horrible stuff.
 
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Deeku

Member
Whoa yeah just read about that. Really sucks for everyone involved.

I'm sure Shawn Elliot won't have trouble landing a design job elsewhere tho, guy's super passionate and seems to know what he's doing.
 
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Planet_JASE

Member
It may just be me, but the level design of Bioshock Infinite left a bit to be desired. I'm not sure if that's going to be as strong as resume builder as you'd hope, unfortunately.

"You know the fairly ambiguous multi-path level designs where it wasn't always clear which direction was the correct one and the extremely obvious killrooms? All me, baby! Hello? Hello? Gahdammit."

Then again, it seems as though many, many people loved it far more than I, so what do I know?
 
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Dead Man

Member
Planet_JASE said:
It may just be me, but the level design of Bioshock Infinite left a bit to be desired. I'm not sure if that's going to be as strong as resume builder as you'd hope, unfortunately.

"You know the fairly ambiguous multi-path level designs where it wasn't always clear which direction was the correct one and the extremely obvious killrooms? All me, baby! Hello? Hello? Gahdammit."

Then again, it seems as though many, many people loved it far more than I, so what do I know?
Click to expand...

I've not played the game, but are you saying that lack of signposted directions is a negative?
 
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Gazunta

Member
Jase it's not like anyone who hires for game companies actually plays games.

They basically just look at the Metacritic average and base your "hirability" on that.

/cynical
 
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Poimandres

Member
reptilescorpio said:
It was a major complaint with Killzone Shadow Fall too.

I still enjoy the maze like layouts of Doom et al damnit!
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I didn't really think there was anything "maze like" about Bioshock Infinite at all. It was mostly very straight forward, with a common complaint being that the game was too linear. I loved it personally.

I agree with the criticism about clearly signposted battle arenas though... it was very obvious where the big battles were going to take place.
 
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Planet_JASE

Member
Dead Man said:
I've not played the game, but are you saying that lack of signposted directions is a negative?
Click to expand...
Not signposted direction but a lack of defined destination at times. When you spend ten to fifteen minutes going down a wrong path to be met with a dead end, then having to go back to the fork and take the other branch to reach the next marker... eh... I don't like it.

And then being told your next destination is the previous, wrong path that you took.

I've got nothing against a game that doesn't hold you hand but the amount of ambiguity that I felt during that game, regarding what was your next destination just lead to frustration.

At times I would switch the "BIG STONKIN' ARROW FOR IDJITS" on just to see if I were going where the game wanted.

There are many ways that you can lead a player without the use of sign posts, overlay arrows, etc. Valve are extremely good at that. The use of colour, camera angle and light/shadow can help facilitate the path of the player without being obnoxious or making the player feel like a idiot for having to turn on the arrow overlay.

Gazunta said:
Jase it's not like anyone who hires for game companies actually plays games.

They basically just look at the Metacritic average and base your "hirability" on that.

/cynical
Click to expand...
Then Shawn is fine. It is my understanding that, for a time, the internet ran out of "10/10"s and "Game of the Year"s when Infinite was released and had to make an emergency order.
 
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Quasar

Member
ClivePwned said:
Publishers and developers cut people because they're going to be sitting around for way too long or they're losing money and need to trim costs to keep afloat, etc that sucks and is way too common.

Ken saying, "I'm done, you're all fired apart from 15 of you. Here's a pool cue" is sucky.

Put it this way. What if Gaben decided he'd had enough of looking up your browser history and retired, shuttering Valve in the process.

Of course Ken can quit and start anther company. Its this narrative that its his choice to cut all of these jobs that is so objectionable.
Click to expand...

I do wonder why he's taking the blame for it. The event (not the narrative) just says to me that 2k didn't think much of anyone aside from Ken. They could have restructured Irrational as Activision did Infinity ward for instance. Its like closing Apple because Jobs isn't there.
 
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reptilescorpio

Member
Quasar said:
I do wonder why he's taking the blame for it. The event (not the narrative) just says to me that 2k didn't think much of anyone aside from Ken. They could have restructured Irrational as Activision did Infinity ward for instance. Its like closing Apple because Jobs isn't there.
Click to expand...

See also: 2K Marin and 2K Bay Area.

Seems like something changed in the last few months at 2K.
First Rod moves on super quick after jumping over. Now Irrational is strip back to basically nothing.
Very curious to see what's going on in the upper levels of 2K management right now.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Has anywhere broken the street date for Tropical Freeze :/ I want my DK.
 
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Shaneus

Member
On Irrational: Wasn't Infinite big enough to be considered successful, despite the number of complaints? I mean, sure it OD'd on 10/10 etc., but it would hardly have been a "failure", I would've thought.

Kritz said:
Antichamber was one of the best games released last year.
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Did you get a chance to see the stall for it at PAX? I was disappointed I didn't have to walk up a flight of stairs, back down them, then back up but while looking backwards just to get there.

Third time I've used that joke on GAF. But different thread, so it doesn't count.

That reminds me... last year was a fucking good year for indie games that weren't created using pixel art. Antichamber, Gone Home, Stanley Parable... all solid stuff. Indies and dem production values.
 
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Gazunta

Member
I think the closure had less to do with the scores Infinite got and more to do with the costs of making an Infinite-size game 5 years from now far outweigh projected sales.

In other words, Infinite-size games aren't selling enough to make the prospect of making MORE of them profitable no matter how well you cook the books.
 
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Quasar

Member
Gazunta said:
I think the closure had less to do with the scores Infinite got and more to do with the costs of making an Infinite-size game 5 years from now far outweigh projected sales.

In other words, Infinite-size games aren't selling enough to make the prospect of making MORE of them profitable no matter how well you cook the books.
Click to expand...

I just don't buy that. Why that might be true, thats in part a failure of project management. And Irrational could quite happily make more financially reasonable games (even go the Double Fine route) that I have trouble seeing the reasons behind the closure.
 
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reptilescorpio

Member
Quasar said:
I just don't buy that. Why that might be true, thats in part a failure of project management. And Irrational could quite happily make more financially reasonable games (even go the Double Fine route) that I have trouble seeing the reasons behind the closure.
Click to expand...

2K pay the bills. They saw how long Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite took and decided it was most cost effective to cut them loose.

A small 16 person team will have a much smaller scope, especially going digital only, so it would be micromanaged easier.
 
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ClivePwned

Member
Quasar said:
I just don't buy that. Why that might be true, thats in part a failure of project management. And Irrational could quite happily make more financially reasonable games (even go the Double Fine route) that I have trouble seeing the reasons behind the closure.
Click to expand...

Irrational was fairly rare in that the creative person trumped in terms of power whoever the senior producer was before Fergusson was parachuted in. In nerd terms, He was a strong Kaiju without a Mecha-Godzilla Producer to counter him. In games, if you don't have people with enough power to say no and get things done, things drag on. I would guess Valve would suffer somewhat from this to some extent. It seems that this was part of why Duke Nukem dragged on for so many years. It's not necessarily perfectionism, but fear of failure. "What if I'm not as good as people think I am?"

The opposite is when you have producers who only say no. Nothing good ever comes from only saying no. Fuck those useless philistines.

I wouldn't use Double Fine as an example of a well-run studio. I'd say DF have been incredibly lucky (as well as immensely talented).

Like everything, it's getting the balance right. Naughty Dog are probably the best example of it being done properly right now (in terms of a studio owned by a publisher).

the thought also occurs that since 2K studios are almost down to a skeleton crew outside of Firaxis and the sports teams that some form of major company re-org is in the works.
 
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reptilescorpio

Member
Yeah Double Fine have been on the verge of collapse pretty much every game they have made. Without Kickstarter they would have started the lay off process.

Even the Kickstarter doco has shown this, running out of money and needing more time (and splitting the game into two).
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'll copy/paste my 2c on the Irrational situation from here:

While it might seem odd that a studio behind critically acclaimed titles from the last generation would suddenly shut up shop, and a little odd that Levine would welcome the loss of many, many talented staff, there’s probably a bit more going on if you read between the lines. In short: Levine is acting somewhat as a fall guy for what has been an ongoing financial mess.

Irrational Games’ early days had them release titles once every two or three years, putting the studio behind classics such as System Shock 2 and Freedom Force. The last few years, however, haven’t been quite as favourable. While the time between SWAT 4 and BioShock seems to be only two years on paper, the game was in development for quite awhile beforehand, going through a scrapped concept before it’s revised announcement in 2004. BioShock Infinite was even more troublesome, the development cycle taking at least six years (more considering pre-production), going through a number of iterations and visions, costing a small fortune in the long run.

While it’s easy to say “But these games reviewed well, and sold well!”, this has not necessarily been the case for Take-Two, a company that has been posting fiscal losses every year that didn’t include the release of a Grand Theft Auto title, or Red Dead Redemption. Success on the small scale for Irrational’s work is damaged by Take-Two’s losses as a whole, as the parent company promised shareholders twice that they’d stop reporting losses in these non-Rockstar years, failing to follow through.

In the long run, it is quite likely Take-Two viewed Irrational’s games for what they are: very expensive projects with very long development cycles. Critically revered, but not good business for a publisher that wants to ensure they’re reporting positive fiscal growth, something very difficult to do when years pass by with money being funnelled off to Irrational to finish a scrapped then rebuilt project that may be years away.

Take-Two probably gave Levine the ultimatum: either everyone goes, or you can stay with us with a small team. The digital boom and Levine’s pedigree ensures that whatever he’s working on will likely be affordable to make and have a high return of investment. Much more profitable and shareholder appeasing than a six year multi-million dollar blockbuster. And that means the rest of Irrational Games, those that aren’t part of Levine’s fifteen person crew, must lay down on the chopping block.

Sad, but also perhaps a warning for how troubled this industry has become, one that may be heard too late. Developers have been dropping like flies over the last generation. It started with the small and insignificant, but over the last few years it has moved up. Once upon a time low tier studios you’ve probably never heard of were the ones taking the bullet. Then it was Silicon Knights and Pandemic Studios, mid-to-high tier studios well established in the industry. Cing, Hudson, and the climax of THQ’s implosion that took with them Blue Tongue and Vigil Games, among others. And now Irrational Games, a studio arguably considered one of the most acclaimed and definitively “AAA” production studios of the last generation.

The safety net of blockbuster studios loved and adored by gamers is a myth, and years old arguments that the AAA production model, wherein tens if not hundreds of millions are funnelled into a single game’s development is simply not sustainable, is perhaps more evident here than anywhere else. The public’s insatiable desire for ‘blockbusters’ and unfair critique of games that do not meet a ludicrous production standard is part of the problem, and though it started at the bottom, we’re now seeing the damage hit the very top. Ultimately the real question is: who’ll be next to fall, and who is trying to salvage the mess?

Rocket Chainsaw would like to wish those let go at Irrational Games the best of luck finding work elsewhere.
Click to expand...
 
G

Gazunta

Member
Well put.

And I'm starting to question the theory that there's this never-ending ravenous demand for 'bigger and better'. I think a lot of this can be pinned on game reviewers who are taking the easy route and saying how amazing and better than everything [insert upcoming game they've just been shown here] is than what's out now. Why not use the power and influence you have as taste-makers and spend your coverage on something that isn't going to send everyone broke?

Heck, Giant Bomb. If I went just there I'd swear that the hottest games in the industry was Dark Souls, Spelunky and DOTA 2. They're at least not following the trend.

I think it also helps DF that their offices and drinking establishments are right in the middle of where all the game journalists in San Fran are. Nothing suss about that, hell I think there'd be a LOT of former Australian game dev teams still in work if they lived and worked in Sydney. Out of sight, out of mind.
 
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codswallop

Member
I'm all for smaller scale games, the ones I've most enjoyed in the past year almost all been those sorts. BioShock Infinite and GTAV were fun too, definitely, but whatever, I'm cool with either.

Also, I wasn't a big fan of Antichamber.

Also also, I want another Pirates! game too.
 
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Shaneus

Member
Nice summation/write-up, EC. Hopefully it's copypasta'd/linked to wherever the thread is on this forum.

I hope this is a massive fucking wake-up call to all the "AAA" devs out there following the whole "bigger is better" mantra. But I know exactly who'll be right in their wake to pick up all the flotsam left in their wake... devs like CD Projekt Red, living proof that you don't need to be a "AAA" dev to make a AAA game on a AAA budget.
 
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reptilescorpio

Member
Shaneus said:
What happened with them? As in, people left them? Or people left another dev to join them?
Click to expand...

They have had one or two leave pretty constantly since the first game (11bit is full of ex-CD devs). Tomasz Gop was a surprising one after The Witcher 2 too.

Tons of talent there though. Expecting TW3 to be amazeballs.
 
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BananaArnie

Member
i think im going to try and grow a strawberry plant
anyone here big into gardening?
anyone know what other fruits i can grow in smallish areas or pots
 
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Danoss

Member
BananaArnie said:
i think im going to try and grow a strawberry plant
anyone here big into gardening?
anyone know what other fruits i can grow in smallish areas or pots
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Strawberries can be a pain in the arse to grow, as can raspberries. I'd say go for chilies. Bird's eye chilies are readily available, easy to grow and quite spicy.
 
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bodyboarder

Member
Gazunta said:
Last night I made a comic about The Simpsons Arcade Game. So that was a good reason to stay up too late and FUCK I COULD USE A HOT CHOCOLATE RIGHT NOW.

5000 Club Nintendo points gets you a Luigi's Mansion 2 Diorama. That looks fucking cool! However, HOW THE FUCKING FUCK COULD ANYONE EVER AMASS 5000 CLUB NINTENDO POINTS?!

Man now I really wish I could play some Luigi's Mansion 2.
Click to expand...

I'd never realised how many ads are on your site, not meaning to pry but do they make you much money? Also I liked the comic.

I have like 2800 at the moment, I went on a registering spree the other week. Pity there's nothing decent to buy for that many.
 
M

ManeKast

Member
Gazunta said:
Last night I made a comic about The Simpsons Arcade Game. So that was a good reason to stay up too late and FUCK I COULD USE A HOT CHOCOLATE RIGHT NOW.

5000 Club Nintendo points gets you a Luigi's Mansion 2 Diorama. That looks fucking cool! However, HOW THE FUCKING FUCK COULD ANYONE EVER AMASS 5000 CLUB NINTENDO POINTS?!

Man now I really wish I could play some Luigi's Mansion 2.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I have 6500 points and just claimed that amazing Luigi Diorama!
 
Q

Quasar

Member
Danoss said:
Strawberries can be a pain in the arse to grow, as can raspberries. I'd say go for chilies. Bird's eye chilies are readily available, easy to grow and quite spicy.
Click to expand...

I find strawberries dead easy to grow. Raspberries and other berries like that are a pain. In part because of what you need to get lots of fruit. I find it much easier to get lots of strawberries.
 
G

Gazunta

Member
bodyboarder said:
I'd never realised how many ads are on your site, not meaning to pry but do they make you much money? Also I liked the comic.
Click to expand...

Well I'm not quitting my day job
yet
but the ads make enough money to make having them on the site worthwhile. The basic webcomic business model (give away the comic for free, make money on advertising, book / merchandise sales and convention appearances) kind of requires them :/
 
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reptilescorpio

Member
Don't forget!

Tomorrow!

26_26wolflsk6s.jpg


Yay beer!
 
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