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[Lord Morairty007]

Iraq's central government in Baghdad ordered the country's Kurdish region to hand over all border crossings and airports to federal government control late Sunday night, hours before the region is set to carry out a controversial referendum on support for independence.

The referendum is set to be held Monday in the three provinces that make up the Kurdistan region as well as dozens of towns and villages that are disputed, claimed by both Baghdad and the country's Kurds, including the oil-rich city of Kirkuk.

The Iraqi government "requests neighboring counties and the countries of the world to deal with the Iraqi federal government exclusively (with regards to) ports and oil," read a statement from the prime minister's national security council released Sunday night.

Earlier Sunday, the Kurdish region's president Masoud Barzani pledged the vote would be held despite pressure from Baghdad and the international community. He said that while the referendum will be the first step in a long process to negotiate independence, the region's "partnership" with the Iraqi central government in Baghdad is over

Link

Not unexpected but can be part of the powder keg that might lead to war with the Kurds and Shiite controlled government. Also, my opinion is that the Kurds should get northern Iraq and the central government to should have no say in it. They are the idiots that embarrassingly ran away against ISIS and leaving equipment for them to take with the capture of Mosul in 2014.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

 

[sphagnum]

Iraq's central government in Baghdad ordered the country's Kurdish region to hand over all border crossings and airports to federal government control late Sunday night, hours before the region is set to carry out a controversial referendum on support for independence.

Yeah that's not going to inflame any tensions!

Biji Kurdistan

 

[Geist-]

The US should be doing everything in their power to help the Kurds achieve a peaceful independence considering what they've done for us. But we won't because we're fucking assholes.

 

[nynt9]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

A decent amount of Turkish Kurds don't necessarily want an autonomous state. They just want more rights and better treatment or more independence under the Turkish umbrella. As of 2015, the ratio of Kurds who want to secede was about 32%, down from 68% in 2012. See page 44 (study in Turkish).

That being said there are many voices, some affiliated with political parties, some affiliated with extremist organizations, and that makes the signal very hard to determine within the noise. But secession isn't necessarily the answer, at least for a decent amount of Turkish Kurds. Can't really speak for the climate in Iraq. If they want to secede, they should be able to express that, but we shouldn't pigeonhole Kurds and assume they all want to secede. Some of them just want to preserve their current life, but with better living conditions, education in their own language, etc.

 

[RinsFury]

That doesn't sound good, never thought the Iraqis were just going to let this happen. Fuck.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

The US should be doing everything in their power to help the Kurds achieve a peaceful independence considering what they've done for us. But we won't because we're fucking assholes.

I think the US should stay out of it. they've done enough damage in the region already.
there is no way any of these countries are going to give up territory just like that.

 

[ZealousD]

The US should be doing everything in their power to help the Kurds achieve a peaceful independence considering what they've done for us. But we won't because we're fucking assholes.

More accurately, we won't because it would royally piss off Turkey, which is a strategic ally.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I feel like another Iraqi Civil War right after ISIS was finally defeated would be the nail in the coffin for unified Iraq.

"Only Nixon could go to China" was true. So was "Only Tito could keep Yugoslavia together." And soon we can add "Only Saddam could keep Iraq together" to that list of truisms which were true.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

I don't think it's that simple, it's not like every linguistic community need to have it's own nation-state. Syria used to train and arm PKK in Turkey, while not giving anything close to an autonomy to it's own independance. Iraqi kurds have very good relationship with Turkey and very bad relationship with the PKK/YPG. Iran is another story altogether.

Sykes-Picot Agreement was about dividing the region on mostly religious divide (Lebanon for the Christians, Syria for the Sunni, Iraq for the Shia) to help consolidate a western control between France and the UK. Doing the same thing around ethnical line is not a solution. An independent Greater Kurdistan can give the world 5 armed conflict, that could degenerate and produce an even greater conflict. Also, you can be sure that their will be a conflict between the different kurdish faction to lead this hypothetical state.

 

[dragonelite]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

Aren't all those Kurdish people pretty much different factions with a lot of infighting or old wounds?
At least that is what gathered from the last Caspian Report.

 

[Edris]

I feel like another Iraqi Civil War right after ISIS was finally defeated would be the nail in the coffin for unified Iraq.

"Only Nixon could go to China" was true. So was "Only Tito could keep Yugoslavia together." And soon we can add "Only Saddam could keep Iraq together" to that list of truisms which were true.

Woah,
Thats so damn true

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I feel like another Iraqi Civil War right after ISIS was finally defeated would be the nail in the coffin for unified Iraq.

"Only Nixon could go to China" was true. So was "Only Tito could keep Yugoslavia together." And soon we can add "Only Saddam could keep Iraq together" to that list of truisms which were true.

If keeping a country together need a brutal dictatorship, what is the point ?

Also, you can easily point out that Saddam is largely responsible for the divide in the iraqi society, he played the sectarian card during the iran-iraq war, adopted a salafi rhetoric in the 90's without mentioning his arab nationalism that was repressive against kurds.

A country like Iraq can be maintained by the rule of the law for everybody, regardless of sect and religion. If the state is giving a special treatment for somebody for belonging to one particular sect, people don't identify with this State and it lose legitimacy and people start to lean more toward "natural" identity, ethnical, religious or linguistic.

Tito is still somewhat popular in all ex-Yugoslavia because he was not sectarian nor biased. You were treated the same if you were Serb or Bosnian. It's very different from Saddam.

 

[EMT0]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire was a mistake, but I could make this argument for just about every colonial venture ever. Imagine a world with a unified Levant that's considered a part of the West...

 

[MisterFalcon]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

Sykes-Picot did not come into existence out of nowhere, if any one act is the root cause it's Enver Pasha pushing the Ottomans into WW1 on the side of Germany.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Newsweek: iran and turkey prepare for war in iraq

 

[mercenar1e]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

That’s not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[pa22word]

Newsweek: iran and turkey prepare for war in iraq

Not really surprising, even if it is pretty sad.

Probably new thread worthy, or this one should have it's titled edited.

 

[cryptosporidium]

As a kurd who studies Kurdish politics i have mixed feelings on this and will have to come back to it in the morning

 

[hohoXD123]

A decent amount of Turkish Kurds don't necessarily want an autonomous state. They just want more rights and better treatment or more independence under the Turkish umbrella. As of 2015, the ratio of Kurds who want to secede was about 32%, down from 68% in 2012. See page 44 (study in Turkish).

That being said there are many voices, some affiliated with political parties, some affiliated with extremist organizations, and that makes the signal very hard to determine within the noise. But secession isn't necessarily the answer, at least for a decent amount of Turkish Kurds. Can't really speak for the climate in Iraq. If they want to secede, they should be able to express that, but we shouldn't pigeonhole Kurds and assume they all want to secede. Some of them just want to preserve their current life, but with better living conditions, education in their own language, etc.

Assuming that a large part of this is due to the Turkish government doing everything it could to destroy Kurdish culture, including banning the language, no wonder a lot of these people identify more as Turks and don't feel that seceding is the right option.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Say Kurdistan becomes independent this way, they will be surrounded by countries that hate them and nowhere near the sea, not a great start.

 

[TeddyBoy]

As a kurd who studies Kurdish politics i have mixed feelings on this and will have to come back to it in the morning

I'd be very interested to hear what you had to say on the matter if you have the time.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Assuming that a large part of this is due to the Turkish government doing everything it could to destroy Kurdish culture, including banning the language, no wonder a lot of these people identify more as Turks and don't feel that seceding is the right option.

The actual Turkish government launched a public TV in Kurdish language and the language is not banned anymore. It was true under kemalism and the AKP rule is clearly a rupture of the kemalist legacy. It's why the AKP was so popular in kurdish regions of Turkey, and still is to some extent, especially among conservative kurds who don't appreciate the leftist dimension of the HDP and it's sympathy for the PKK.

Also, you're getting your logic wrong: it's cultural oppression that make people wanting to secede. If the state is allowing you to express your cultural/religious/linguistic specificities, you won't feel the need to secede. It's why violent kurdish militancy was mainly a turkish phenomenon, because it was by far the most oppressive and jacobinist state of the region. Iran give way more liberties to its cultural minorities as long as they recognize the supremacy of the leadership.

 

[SolarPowered]

The US should be doing everything in their power to help the Kurds achieve a peaceful independence considering what they've done for us. But we won't because we're fucking assholes.

I sort of agree. Better to let people in the region redraw the lines themselves instead of trying to prop up failing states. So far that has already happened with Kurds carving out pieces of ISIS dominated territory that Syrian and Iraqi governments couldn't even control. Kurds have been fighting way too long for this and are too large an ethnic group not to have their own state. Good luck getting even a clump of dirt from Turkey, though. In their defense Turkey can actually hold it's territory unlike the former two, so at least they've got that steadfastness and stability going for them.

 

[Diancecht]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

Yeah dog just take our country, sure why the fuck not.

Lmao.

Kurds never had Kurdistan as a country. You can't just take a part of the someone else's country just because you live there.

 

[davepoobond]

Here comes another war

 

[Sean C]

Greater Kurdistan needs to be its own nation, that includes the Kurdish parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

The effects of the Sykes-Picot Agreement still ripple throughout the Middle East.

While the Sykes-Picot agreement did lead to a lot of nonsensical borders, the absence of such an agreement would not have led to an independent Kurdistan.

The Allies has promised their Arab supporters wanted a single unified state based on the former Ottoman imperial possessions in Mesopotamia and Arabia, with the Hashemite dynastic ruler of Hejaz as the king.

 

[kess]

Yeah dog just take our country, sure why the fuck not.

Lmao.

Kurds never had Kurdistan as a country. You can't just take a part of the someone else's country just because you live there.

Alexandretta says hello

 

[NyMartin90]

Sykes-Picot did not come into existence out of nowhere, if any one act is the root cause it's Enver Pasha pushing the Ottomans into WW1 on the side of Germany.

Enver Pasha was not a lone actor in this decision. I wrote my thesis on the build up to the Ottoman entry and there were meetings as late as early October 1914 where people like Ahmed Djemal Pasha was meeting with the Entente and Grand Vizier Said Halim Pasha sending communiques with Entente Representatives in Crimea. An imperialist agenda on the part of the British trying to penetrate the Mesopotamian provinces with their own sphere of influence in the 1800s is proof alone that there were interests in taking Ottoman lands long before WW1.

 

[gutter_trash]

No " thank you " for helping getting rid of ISIS?

 

[cryptosporidium]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/27/over-92-of-iraqs-kurds-vote-for-independence

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-flights-irbl-cancelled-baghdad-a7971296.html

I think this is something thats too much for me to write well so Ill just put my thoughts in point form

• Though the Peshmerga have been very effective at fighting ISIS that does not mean Irbil is either good or bad
• Before the war, when Barzani assumed de facto leader there were claims of corruption which may still be the case
• Irbil and Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan) are not enemies nor are they really friends. They differ quite a lot politically but share ethnicity
• Turkey has said repeatidly they will not allow a kurdish state on their borders. Despite the warmer relations between irbil and Turkey comparatively to Turkey and other Kurdish peoples (Turkish, Syrian) they still will not allow this.
• I am aware of the pipline between irbil and Turkey, which baghdad has fought against
• Iraqs President is Kurdish as is the previous one I believe
• Iraqi kurdistan has a LOT of oil which Iraq will not want to give up
• During their time with heavy sanctions Iran smuggled a LOT of things through kurdistan region in order to stay afloat
• Iran is fighting within syria and iraq to ensure Iraq terroritorial security, they do not want irbil to secceed.

This all that im trying to come up with as of now, but theres a lot more info and Id have to reread some of my older papers to remember


I support Kurdish independence. I support the socialist Rojavan govt despite their ties to terrorism. I support Irbils decision as it is the decision of their people. I am unsure whether this was the right time to do it but i am also aware this war may be their only chance. I hope that Iran and Iraq can work through this with Irbil and Barzani ithout bloodshed.

Theres a lot Idk, and Im not sure where this will be leading to.

 

[Ogodei]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/...h-major-kirkuk-operation-171015220651177.html

Iraqi forces have entered Kirkuk. Reports of clashes with Kurdish Peshmerga, but we don't have confirmation of this.

 

[z1ggy]

If Kurdistan wants freedom, they will have to be ready for a fight. It's a shame, since its a place thats mostly doing pretty ok. But i don´t think that going into a war or civil war will help them or help their economy since they do not have sea in their territory. So they need the air space of their neighbors.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Having Chester cheeto as US president sucks. We shouldn't be hanging Kurdistan out to dry after the help they've given us in iraq

 

[Frustrated_me]

I don't understand Barzani, what a gamble, dumb or genius.

Who will befriend the kurds in the ME? Every single corner of their borders would be hostile enemies. Iran, Turkey, Iraq and Syria. How is Kurdistan a good idea? The only near-by ally would be Israel, and even at that, how is having Israel as an ally a good idea in the ME?

I just don't get the play here, this is one of those situations you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. The Kurds know very well once the IS threat is over the US will drop them ASAP, I guess this is the Kurds forcing the US hand earlier than anticipated?

Again, i don't get it.

 

[j_k_redtail]

The US should be doing everything in their power to help the Kurds achieve a peaceful independence considering what they've done for us. But we won't because we're fucking assholes.

I don't trust this administration to do anything helpful in a situation as complex as this. It's fully outside their skillset.

 

[massoluk]

Feel like Iraq should just let the region go, I don't think the baggage is worth it

 

[Fuchsdh]

I don't understand Barzani, what a gamble, dumb or genius.

Who will befriend the kurds in the ME? Every single corner of their borders would be hostile enemies. Iran, Turkey, Iraq and Syria. How is Kurdistan a good idea? The only near-by ally would be Israel, and even at that, how is having Israel as an ally a good idea in the ME?

I just don't get the play here, this is one of those situations you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. The Kurds know very well once the IS threat is over the US will drop them ASAP, I guess this is the Kurds forcing the US hand earlier than anticipated?

Again, i don't get it.

Well, in the 1700s the British colonies in North America were surrounded by the French, natives, and Spanish, and were going to be breaking away from the world's most powerful navy. Not great odds.

The Kurds don't really have the equivalent of the French aside from us, but they've also shown that they're not to be trifled with. And if it spilled into a regional war I imagine international pressure would be brought to bear.

The US should be doing everything in their power to help the Kurds achieve a peaceful independence considering what they've done for us. But we won't because we're fucking assholes.

I'd say that would only make things worse especially under the current administration. Besides, at least with the Kurds we can say that US intervention has probably on the balance been good for them, even if destabilizing for the region as a whole. I'm sure they're far happier now than under Saddam's thumb.

 

[devilhawk]

This always seemed inevitable, and it has looked that way since even before Obama was in office. As long as a common enemy existed, the Kurdistan issue was just pushed down the road. There really isn't many options here for the US.

 

[Codeblue]

Feel like Iraq should just let the region go, I don't think the baggage is worth it

There's an absurd amount of oil there. No one is letting go of anything.