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[DrDogg]

http://biz.gamedaily.com/features.asp?article_id=10432&section=feature

I searched and didn't see this posted. It's talking with Bethesda on the X360 with and without the HDD.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Good info.

But, all of the harp on the HDD issue is way overboard IMO. You'd think games wouldnt be developed at all without it or something the way some reactions are.

MS could have DEFINITELY done a better job of handling it on the PR end though. At least to appease the board wars.

 

[IJoel]

No new info in that article unfortunately.

But I'd bet Bethesda will have downloadable content of some type. I do wonder whether their DLC scope has changed after the 2 sku plan was revealed.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Bethesda says that it's taking full advantage of the HDD for its game Oblivion, but all they point to is faster load times. In the end, because developers have to make games with "core" 360 owners in mind, the gameplay experience may not be greatly enhanced for users of the HDD.

In what way other than cacheing did the standard Xbox1 hard drive improve the 'gameplay experience'.

 

[FiRez]

In what way other than cacheing did the standard Xbox1 hard drive improve the 'gameplay experience'.

It makes possible that the xbox can handle recent PC games, maybe that will not be the case in the x360, 512MB of RAM will be almost nothing in a few years and not having a standard HDD for cache will hurt it even more

 

[rastex]

It makes possible that the xbox can handle recent PC games.

How so?

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

In what way other than cacheing did the standard Xbox1 hard drive improve the 'gameplay experience'.

Custom soundtracks?!?

 

[IJoel]

It makes possible that the xbox can handle recent PC games, maybe that will not be the case in the x360, 512MB of RAM will be almost nothing in a few years and not having a standard HDD for cache will hurt it even more

This is not true. The worst thing we could see is longer loading times, shorter levels, and texture resolution/sizes being reduced. 512MB should be good enough for the next couple of years though (to see no memory hit in ports.)

The biggie in this whole HDD debacle is whether developers will create DLC for their games. Simply put, if the userbase with HDD isn't big enough, they won't bother, as it won't make financial sense.

Custom soundtracks were also an advantage of having a HDD with the original Xbox. Sure, you can plug in your portable music player, but what about those that do not own PCs or portable music players? At least this option is supported at an OS level, which means that it won't depend on any developer to be implemented.

The last thing is MMO games. I initially thought we were going to be seeing many MMO games go to Xbox 360, but with no HDD, I find it rather difficult any publisher will take such a risk (unless, as with DLC, there's enough userbase with HDD.) I would love to know what Square-Enix thinks about this.

 

[FiRez]

How so?

A lot of devs already praised the standard HDD in the current xbox because it makes possible to port recent PC games while keeping a good quality in the final product (ex: see the gamepro article about Doom 3 on xbox (june 2004 I think), bethesda explained how every changes in the game world could be saved because the HDD).

This is not true. The worst thing we could see is longer loading times, shorter levels, and texture resolution/sizes being reduced. 512MB should be good enough for the next couple of years though (to see no memory hit in ports.)

So try to imagine those games in the current xbox without the HDD: a DooM 3 port with even less resolution on textures, less details, more loading, less fps, etc,....heck they could even make DooM 3 on PS2 for those reasons, but I really doubt that the devs wants to spend resources in a really toned down port and I fear that would be the case for the X360 in a near future.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The biggie in this whole HDD debacle is whether developers will create DLC for their games. Simply put, if the userbase with HDD isn't big enough, they won't bother, as it won't make financial sense.

We've had a lot of DLC on X1 with only 10% online penetration, so dividing the userbase isn't likely to be much of an issue.

 

[IJoel]

We've had a lot of DLC on X1 with only 10% online penetration, so dividing the userbase isn't likely to be much of an issue.

10% of an userbase where 100% had a HDD.

 

[Open Source]

hard disc isnt nesessary. its a Crutch for lazy and unknowing Pc developers who only know direct X to avoid Understanding how to lay files out on a Disc for proper content streaming.

you have to understand how Bad most Pc game developers are. they dont like thinking about Hardware, physical mapping and optimzation strategy. they just Want to make a bunch of Api calls, fire and forget, and not think about bottle necks, streaming, physical disc lay out and profiling.

360 to them was supposed to be like xbox, Pc-like and they could keep their Lazy Pc programming styles. 360 is now a proper Console, and they are pissed.

it shows in the first Batch of games. crappy Frame rates, ugly effects from making direct x type api calls with out considering the assets or level design. whinging about no hard disc is predictable. design a good game and upgrade your Skills. anyone who survived Ps2 architectere and made a good Game like god of war will laugh at these Pc whingers.

This is exactly right, with the exception of how "whiners" is spelled.

 

[IJoel]

So try to imagine those games in the current xbox without the HDD: a DooM 3 port with even less resolution on textures, less details, more loading, less fps, etc,....heck they could even make DooM 3 on PS2 for those reasons, but I really doubt that the devs wants to spend resources in a really toned down port and I fear that would be the case for the X360 in a near future.

Obviously there's a point at which it doesn't make sense to port a game. However, that said, if a publisher deems a game, that uses caching on the PC extensively for streaming, worth porting over to the consoles, you can bet they'll get a developer to work on a way to stream the data off the dvd. It's reasonable to expect the 12X DVD drive that ships with the Xbox 360 to attain more than 10 MB/s of transfer rates as a practical average, and that should be enough to get a streaming engine going. Epic has certainly done it with their UE3 tech, as demonstrated in their demos.

 

[snatches]

The biggie in this whole HDD debacle is whether developers will create DLC for their games. Simply put, if the userbase with HDD isn't big enough, they won't bother, as it won't make financial sense.

No one should be worrying about this...Microsoft will control the allocation at launch and after. I can almost assure you that 80%(or more) of the allocation at launch for the 360 will be the HDD bundle. The core system will be bought up by big box power sellers like Walmart and will be in tight supply regardless.

 

[IJoel]

No one should be worrying about this...Microsoft will control the allocation at launch and after. I can almost assure you that 80%(or more) of the allocation at launch for the 360 will be the HDD bundle. The core system will be bought up by big box power sellers like Walmart and will be in tight supply regardless.

Suuure... MS also said the Xbox 360 would include a HDD and a wireless controller. And don't patronize us by playing their stupid "Xbox 360 System" and "Xbox 360 Core System" semantics. As a matter of fact, I feel exactly the opposite will occur. MS is most likely bleeding more money with the Premium Pack, which leads me to believe it'll be phased out in the future.

 

[border]

Why would MS piss off Wal-Mart and blow their chance at fast market penetration by artificially constricting the supply of the Core system? What's the point of making the thing in the first place if you are going to trip over yourself to make sure people can't buy it?

 

[PhatSaqs]

Why would MS piss of Wal-Mart and blow their chance at fast market penetration by artificially constricting the supply of the Core system? What's the point of making the thing in the first place if you are going to trip over yourself to make sure people can't buy it?

Yeah. Why release a Premium pack and overpriced peripherals at all???

 

[Oni Jazar]

What a worthless article. I was hoping for some actual plans on using the HD. The only interesting part is that Bethesda is apparently oblivios to how the HDD will be used for Oblivion. That's not good to hear with only a few months to go.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Why would MS piss off Wal-Mart and blow their chance at fast market penetration by artificially constricting the supply of the Core system? What's the point of making the thing in the first place if you are going to trip over yourself to make sure people can't buy it?

This is also something to consider, the Walmart factor. Would Walmart put pressure on the console manufacturers to bring their product in under a certain target cost? I mean, they buy in such huge volumes that if a system had difficulty selling at $400, that's a pretty hefty blow they'll be taking upon themselves to keep them in stock. Perhaps Walmart was one of the key deciders in MS going with multiple SKUs? PEACE.

 

[mrklaw]

Why would MS piss off Wal-Mart and blow their chance at fast market penetration by artificially constricting the supply of the Core system? What's the point of making the thing in the first place if you are going to trip over yourself to make sure people can't buy it?

so they can announced a low price and keep everyone happy.

 

[border]

so they can announced a low price and keep everyone happy.

How is everyone happy if supplies are strictly limited? Retailers can't buy a SKU they want, and neither can the "mainstream" customer that MS is trying to attract.

 

[GDJustin]

I would have thought this was commen sense, guys. If you're offering two SKUs, at launch you offer far more of the higher-end SKU because that's what gamers who buy launch systems want. They are, by definition, the hardcore and not the casual market. The $400 SKU is for the hardcore, therefor there will be far more of them.

You're not thinking about the videogame industry the right way. Consider that there as still hundreds of thousands of PS2 sold every month in the middle of 2005. Who the heck is buying all these systems? Certainly not the same group that is going to buy a 360 at launch.

 

[----]

Good info.

But, all of the harp on the HDD issue is way overboard IMO. You'd think games wouldnt be developed at all without it or something the way some reactions are.

MS could have DEFINITELY done a better job of handling it on the PR end though. At least to appease the board wars.

I don't think it's overboard especially when you hear so many developers saying that they're going to target all of their games at the Core unit and not take advantage of the HDD in designing their games or making additional content available. It's not that all games won't be possible (some games won't be possible), it's that consumers don't want to get stuck with another weak peripheral. People see the HDD as greatly improving the machine and they don't want to see it fail like most peripherals end up failing. For developers it's very frustrating because they want to be able to use the HDD to improve their games and now they have to act like it isn't there because you can remove it or not own one all together.

I think MS could have avoided this whole mess by including a large flash memory storage in the Xbox 360 Core just like the Nintendo Revolution has. Then developers could work with the assumption that the HDD was there since everyone would have a mass storage option by default. Like a lot of the developers I really question whether there was any significant need for this Core system to be available at launch. MS could have introduced this Core system a year or 2 from now as a new hardware introduction similar to GBA:SP, GBA Micro or the slim PS2 and rejuvenated sales. Very poor timing.

 

[snatches]

Suuure... MS also said the Xbox 360 would include a HDD and a wireless controller. And don't patronize us by playing their stupid "Xbox 360 System" and "Xbox 360 Core System" semantics. As a matter of fact, I feel exactly the opposite will occur. MS is most likely bleeding more money with the Premium Pack, which leads me to believe it'll be phased out in the future.

Microsoft is most definitely losing less money on the HDD bundle. Please.

 

[snatches]

How is everyone happy if supplies are strictly limited? Retailers can't buy a SKU they want, and neither can the "mainstream" customer that MS is trying to attract.

Retailers don't really want the core bundle, they just want their customers to think it will be available.

Sales 101: Perception is reality.

 

[border]

Of course retailers want the cheaper bundle. They have always wanted the cheaper bundles when systems went to multiple SKUs.

The whole "They're going to trick people into buying a premium pack!" line seems like a too big of a gamble to make....especially for retailers who have been getting stuck with "the unpopular version" of multi-SKU consoles for some time now. When this magical "mainstream consumer" can't find the cheaper package they want, they are probably more likely to walk out the door than they are likely to cough up an extra $100. I don't see the premium SKU lasting too far past the launch.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Microsoft is most definitely losing less money on the HDD bundle. Please.

Microsoft is most definitely losing less money on the Core consumer.

 

[IJoel]

Microsoft is most definitely losing less money on the HDD bundle. Please.

I really doubt it. You are getting wireless functionality, the HDD, a headset and a remote controller extra. Not only this, but you can be sure that the gamer that buys the Premium Pack won't, for the most part, buy a memory card. I think all that accounts in total for more than $100.

 

[snatches]

Of course retailers want the cheaper bundle. They have always wanted the cheaper bundles when systems went to multiple SKUs.

The whole "They're going to trick people into buying a premium pack!" line seems like a too big of a gamble to make....especially for retailers who have been getting stuck with "the unpopular version" of multi-SKU consoles for some time now. When this magical "mainstream consumer" can't find the cheaper package they want, they are probably more likely to walk out the door than they are likely to cough up an extra $100. I don't see the premium SKU lasting too far past the launch.

This would only be true if demand didn't exceed supply. This November, demand will definitely exceed supply.

 

[snatches]

I really doubt it. You are getting wireless functionality, the HDD, a headset and a remote controller extra. Not only this, but you can be sure that the gamer that buys the Premium Pack won't, for the most part, buy a memory card. I think all that accounts in total for more than $100.

Retail costs maybe, but definitely, definitely not wholesale costs.

 

[Beer Monkey]

wireless functionality, the HDD, a headset and a remote controller extra.

You left out the component cable and the AA batteries.

Seriously, like you said, you have to factor in the highly profitable $40 memory card that the core consumer will buy while the premium consumers don't. It's really a $400 bundle versus a $340 bundle, and the profit margin on the memory card is going to be very high.

 

[snatches]

Of course retailers want the cheaper bundle. They have always wanted the cheaper bundles when systems went to multiple SKUs.

The whole "They're going to trick people into buying a premium pack!" line seems like a too big of a gamble to make....especially for retailers who have been getting stuck with "the unpopular version" of multi-SKU consoles for some time now. When this magical "mainstream consumer" can't find the cheaper package they want, they are probably more likely to walk out the door than they are likely to cough up an extra $100. I don't see the premium SKU lasting too far past the launch.

Does this customer even exist at a launch? Retard Pack + $40 memory card = $340.
Who walks out of a store at launch without a headset, 20gb hard drive, wireless controller and media remote for $60?? This fool does not deserve a 360 or any next gen console. Go home and play your ps2 forever jackass.

 

[snatches]

You left out the component cable and the AA batteries.

Oh, and what he said. And true, the memory card does soften the blow for MS on the core pack.

 

[border]

Who walks out of a store at launch without a headset, 20gb hard drive, wireless controller and media remote for $60??

If they weren't charging $40 for component cables (and weren't disabling backwards compatibility with previous video cables) I'd probably do it. Large hard drive seems pointless since you can't store media, don't care about wireless controller that nearly requires an additional $20 purchase, and I will be keeping Xbox1 for media playback since X360's media features are shitty/expensive.

I think most people that are on the fence will talk themselves out of the extras when they see a $100 price difference.

 

[snatches]

If they weren't charging $40 for component cables (and weren't disabling backwards compatibility with previous video cables) I'd probably do it. Large hard drive seems pointless since you can't store media, don't care about wireless controller that nearly requires an additional $20 purchase, and I will be keeping Xbox1 for media playback since X360's media features are shitty/expensive.

I think most people that are on the fence will talk themselves out of the extras when they see a $60 price difference.

Fixed. What about game demos and such? A 64mb card won't hold squat. People really need to be more subjective about this price difference. 'Sides, I won't mind dumping my Ipod playlist into my HDD when friends come over, and plugging in my digicam to show off my buddies getting ridiculous drunk at Cultus Lake....(BC gamers recognize)

 

[border]

You just said that "Perception is reality" and like it or not people will perceive a $100 price difference, not a $60 difference. Nobody perceived the Playstation 2 as being a $330-340 system versus a $300 Xbox. Requisite accessories tend to exist only in the back of people's minds, I think.

Memory cards will be quite the cash cow for everyone, so that's another reason to think retailers will want to push the Core bundle.

 

[snatches]

Perception is reality, true, but the customer will have to pull out their wallet (purse? velocity girl?) and pay the $340. I would definitely expect them to realize the $60 price diff before they have an invoice in their hand.

 

[Zeenbor]

hard disc isnt nesessary. its a Crutch for lazy and unknowing Pc developers who only know direct X to avoid Understanding how to lay files out on a Disc for proper content streaming.

you have to understand how Bad most Pc game developers are. they dont like thinking about Hardware, physical mapping and optimzation strategy. they just Want to make a bunch of Api calls, fire and forget, and not think about bottle necks, streaming, physical disc lay out and profiling.

360 to them was supposed to be like xbox, Pc-like and they could keep their Lazy Pc programming styles. 360 is now a proper Console, and they are pissed.

it shows in the first Batch of games. crappy Frame rates, ugly effects from making direct x type api calls with out considering the assets or level design. whinging about no hard disc is predictable. design a good game and upgrade your Skills. anyone who survived Ps2 architectere and made a good Game like god of war will laugh at these Pc whingers.

Amen. Finally, someone says it like it is.

 

[border]

The person that's pulling out their wallet has already made the purchase in their head, and is probably expecting the memory card deal. The extra $60 can either go to a game or go to a bunch of accessories that they got along fine without last generation. I think most people are instant-gratification types, and will lean towards getting the game.

It will be interesting to hear what MS's take on launch allocations is, but I'd bet that they won't be able to force retailers to take the more expensive SKU for long. It seems like almost a better idea to slightly short-ship the Premium SKU, since it might force a few desperate gamers to buy the Retard Pack + HDD just to get a system at all.

 

[DarienA]

Perception is reality, true, but the customer will have to pull out their wallet (purse? velocity girl?) and pay the $340. I would definitely expect them to realize the $60 price diff before they have an invoice in their hand.

...you'd be surprised.