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[Kleegamefan]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5535099#post5535099

More details on the surrender:

Toshiba's Yoshihide Fujii (their lead negotiator) is sucking up to his Sony Cell peeps...HD-DVD hardliner Hisashi Yamada has been shut out of the talks.

Kazuhiro Tsuga is MEI's pointman (he worked with Toshiba in the past on SD) and he's 110% behind 0.1mm, since MEI has invested big bucks in making 0.1mm work.

Fujii is expected to cave on the 0.1mm issue, meaning that 0.6mm HD-DVD is dead as a doornail. I don't know what facesaving concession could be made (it appears as if Fujii is going to agree to the entire BD physical format)...maybe there's some royalty value in the HD-DVD name

It's from today's CED. No links (it's not available online), but here's the article...I'm sure I'm going to jail for this...

Hawks vs. Doves

Format Unification Outcome Could Hinge on Tug-Of-War Within Toshiba

Whether Blu-ray and HD DVD ultimately strike agreement on a unified next-generation optical disc format may hinge on the outcome of a tug-of-war that has emerged within Toshiba between the company’s dovish elements and its more hawkish factions, Consumer Electronics Daily has learned.

The doves within Toshiba are reportedly less opposed than the hawks toward capitulating to Blu-ray on that disc’s unique new form factor if they can win face-saving concessions from Blu-ray in return. The doves are led by Yoshihide Fujii, CEO of Toshiba’s Digital Media Network Co., who has close relations with his peers within Sony through those companies’ cooperative work with IBM on the Cell microprocessor for the next-generation PlayStation.

We’ve learned that Fujii has emerged as Toshiba’s point person in its unification talks with Sony and Panasonic. That’s at the expense of HD DVD point man Hisashi Yamada, among the most hawkish of the Toshiba hawks and who at all costs strongly opposes capitulating to Blu-ray. But Yamada is depicted as being on the outside looking in. Sony’s main delegate in the negotiations is Kyoshi Nishitani, the company’s Blu-ray point man in Japan; although incoming Sony Electronics CEO Ryoji Chubachi is key among a handful of decision-makers, he’s monitoring the talks but isn’t involved day-to-day.

Meanwhile, Kazuhiro Tsuga has emerged as a Panasonic’s lead representative in the talks. Tsuga is Matsushita’s exec. officer for digital network and software technology, and is well known to his counterparts at Toshiba through the companies’ past cooperation on the Super Density disc format in 1995 and more recently on the SD Memory Card. Tsuga is a Blu-ray hard liner; although Panasonic is in the loop on the talks, sources insisted that company -- and Sony -- won't budge on 0.1-mm technology, and Tsuga is a key reason why. To Panasonic and Sony, unification “means 0.1-mm only," a source told us, pointing out that Panasonic has invested heavily in the 0.1-mm system, as has Pioneer and other Blu-ray supporters. All believe there’s no turning back.

One possible rationale for Toshiba capitulating on Blu-ray’s thin cover layer in a unified format might well be the realization within the company that thinner and thinner substrates will be the migration path of future optical media. Similar thinking motivated Sony and Philips in 1995 to abandon their idea of a single-molded 1.2-mm-thick disc in favor of the bonded disc fashioned by 0.6-mm-thick halves.

*** This doesn't make sense to me...both formats are bonded, albeit BD is 1.1+0.1 vs. DVD/HD-DVD's 0.6+0.6. That 1.1 layer takes longer to cure, increasing practicle cycle time, decreasing yield. Whatever... ***

If unification talks progress along the lines of embracing the Blu-ray disc’s form factor, it's likely the DVD Forum will need to become a quick study in 0.1-mm disc technology. In June 2002, the DVD Forum's Technical Coordination Group (TCG) set up 2 sub-groups in its Working Group 11 “to study and promote the best technical approach based on” 0.6-mm and 0.1-mm technologies, respectively, for blue laser optical disc applications. It's not known what progress, if any, was made by sub-group TG 11-2 on the 0.1 mm technology with 0.85 numerical-aperture (NA) blue laser espoused by Blu-ray. On Nov. 27, 2002, in response to reports of a total schism between 0.6-mm and 0.1-mm adversaries, the DVD Forum reported “to date, no 0.1mm technology has been proposed,” and no decision has been made to adopt either technology. Blu-ray all along has stated it would make no attempt to work within the DVD Forum to achieve standardization.

Meanwhile, sub-group TG 11-1 under Toshiba's Yamada kept developing that company's 0.6mm/0.65-NA technology, then known as Advanced Optical Disc and subsequently approved as the DVD Forum standard, now called HD DVD. In addition to the 2 subgroups, the DVD Forum's Steering Committee established a TCG ad-hoc subcommittee (AH-08) under Yamada “to work with the Blu-ray Disc Founders toward reaching an agreement to work together on a common format.” It's also not clear what, if anything, became of that gambit.

-- Stephen A. Booth, Paul Gluckman

The thick plottens

 

[AB 101]

Getting very intersting.

Keep us posted on all the latest Klee.

 

[Elios83]

So the possibilities within Toshiba at the moment are:

1)R.I.P HD-DVD
2)No negoziation

??

 

[gofreak]

1)R.I.P HD-DVD
2)No negoziation

That seems to be the viewpoint from the Bluray side of things anyway.

Cheers for the article, KLee!

 

[AB 101]

What do you think Klee?

Whats going to happen in your opinion?

 

[The End]

This is good news for everyone, as BRD is really the technically superior format.

 

[Culex]

I hope Blu-Ray reemerges as the sole victor. Better tech should always win!

 

[soundwave05]

Basically what I think will happen is the inevitable ...

The Blu-Ray format will be chosen, but it'll be renamed to the more marketable "HD-DVD" or "DVD HD".

Aside from that HD-DVD is basically inferior in every way (its cheaper for now, but eventually the cost differences will be negligable), and getting people to switch to a new format after DVD is going to be a tough sell to begin with, why on earth would you chose the format with the lesser storage space?

 

[HokieJoe]

A lot of the MPAA members have been the major proponents of HD-DVD from the start. The studios want as little cost up front as possible in any kind of transistion to a new format. Really it makes good economic sense for them to continue using basically the same fabs to press out HD-DVD's as opposed to a whole new format .

That said, eff em'. Ride that Blu-Ray tide Hollyweird- ride it!

The only bad part is, content may be slower in coming, and the prices will remain elevated for a longer period of time relative to a HD-DVD transistion.

 

[Panajev2001a]

A lot of the MPAA members have been the major proponents of HD-DVD from the start. The studios want as little cost up front as possible in any kind of transistion to a new format. Really it makes good economic sense for them to continue using basically the same fabs to press out HD-DVD's as opposed to a whole new format .

That said, eff em'. Ride that Blu-Ray tide Hollyweird- ride it!

The only bad part is, content may be slower in coming, and the prices will remain elevated for a longer period of time relative to a HD-DVD transistion.

I do not know about the content thing: for a while Sony Pictures/Columbia/MGM has been mastering all their movies in Hi-Definition and they are not the only studio .

 

[The End]

Expect a large push from sony-owned studios next fall around the time of the PS3 launch. They want plenty of hi-def movies for you to play on your PS3.

 

[Fuzzy]

Basically what I think will happen is the inevitable ...

The Blu-Ray format will be chosen, but it'll be renamed to the more marketable "HD-DVD" or "DVD HD".

I agree completely.

 

[AB 101]

^^^^ I agree. Go with the Blu-ray format and keep the HD-DVD name.

Sounds like a good compromise to me.

 

[Midas]

HD-DVD is the better name from a consumer point of view. I would be satisfied with a name change if they keep the Blu-ray specs.

 

[Culex]

Am I the only one who thinks that Blu-Ray sounds better? It comes off the tongue so much more easily.

 

[Suikoguy]

^^^^ I agree. Go with the Blu-ray format and keep the HD-DVD name.

Sounds like a good compromise to me.

Yep, I agree
I seriously hope that happens

Blue ray to me sounds cool, but HD DVD or DVD HD just will work better for marketing

 

[Mugen]

Yep, I agree
I seriously hope that happens

Blue ray to me sounds cool, but HD DVD or DVD HD just will work better for marketing

Eh? Calling it HD DVD is a big mistake IMO. To warrant an upgrade, you should call it totally different instead of a measly "HD" DVD which sounds like "barely" an upgrade in the name and in literal storage capacity also. Go with BluRay and stick with the name also. A real step in the technology instead of an 'upgrade' which HD DVD sounds like.

 

[Midas]

Yep, I agree
I seriously hope that happens

Blue ray to me sounds cool, but HD DVD or DVD HD just will work better for marketing

Yeah, that's what I think too. I really like the Blu-ray name, but the mass market will probably take a new format better if it's backed by the DVD "name".

 

[HokieJoe]

I do not know about the content thing: for a while Sony Pictures/Columbia/MGM has been mastering all their movies in Hi-Definition and they are not the only studio .

Yes a lot of studios have been mastering in full D5. They have their eye towards the future of course; but that doesn't mean they want the transition to go any faster than it has to. They want to milk the 480p DVD standard for all it's worth before they switch.

 

[SteveMeister]

"Blu-ray" may sound cool, but it has no meaning to the consumer. HD-DVD makes sense -- consumers know what DVD's are, and they know what High Definition is. It's the better name.

 

[Kleegamefan]

The Blu-Ray format will be chosen, but it'll be renamed to the more marketable "HD-DVD" or "DVD HD".

I hate to sound like a broken record but I agree with everybody here in that if a unified format comes to pass, it will probably be called HD-DVD in name but will be Blu-ray in technology (mostly)...

From what we know, "HD-DVD" will have the BRD physical spec plus the HD-DVD software/OS......

Although I would rather BRD in its entirety be used (especially if they are using the BRD physical spec. which would nullify the "old" HD-DVD's one advantage; its close physical relation to regular red laser DVD and its ease of transferring manufacturing assets back and forth) it is better than nothing and we should still see the size and physical advantages of BRD(no dual-sided crap and up to 8 layers and 200GBs of storage space)....

Alas, we probably won't see any of the kewl Java aps in the application layer of new unified format, but you cant win them all.....particularly if you are throwing Toshiba a bone for all the headaches they caused everybody

So....most likely:

Physical Layer=BRD

Application Layer=AOD/the old HD-DVD


So that just leaves us with decisions of what Logistical Layer will be used and the submission and (hopefully) selection of the new HD-DVD to the DVD Forum Selection Commitee...

Thankfully, this shoud be a fairly quick process IMO, since the biggest diffrences between the 2 formats was the Physical Layers so whatever is left is trivial in comparison....Best of all, both format already chose AACS encryption so they can't use that excuse for a delay

All in all, this is good news and a I think we have a good chance at realizing a quick solution to the unification

 

[Kleegamefan]

This just in....seems that having HD-DVD as the ROM format and BRD as the recordable format is a possible option:

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=161501129

Rivals roll up sleeves to unify next-gen DVD


Yoshiko Hara , Junko Yoshida
EE Times
(04/25/2005 9:00 AM EDT)


Paris — Unification of the HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc optical formats is being discussed in earnest, sources on both sides have confirmed. With a compromise perhaps only months away, the rival camps must now confront the difficulty of reconciling schemes that have little in common beyond their basis in blue lasers.

The negotiations remain fluid, but at least two proposals are on the table for merging aspects of the two high-definition formats, sources said last week at the National Association of Broadcasters convention in Las Vegas (see www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=160901475).


One is a hybrid solution that would support Blu-ray for recording and HD DVD for ROM disks. The other seeks commonality on the higher-level protocol and the disks' interactive layers, if not on the full physical format.


The Blu-ray group had held marathon meetings at Disney studios in the week preceding the NAB convention, and the DVD Forum is meeting at Warner Bros. this week. Sources close to the forums noted that the Blu-ray group has been evolving its own format as it explores convergence with HD DVD.


Clearly, the two sides hope to avoid a format war. New Sony Corp. president Ryoji Chubachi has stated that bringing two formats to market would be counterproductive, and others echoed his comments at a recent meeting in Tokyo.


"For healthy industry development, it is of course desirable to avoid a useless fight," said Shinichi Tanaka, the director of the Storage Media System Development Center at Matsushita.


And not a day does by, said Hiroharu Satoh, general manager of Toshiba's HD DVD Promotion Division, that he does not think about "a way to come to an agreement on a single format."


The technical differences between the formats are not trivial. Both use a blue laser and support similar video compression formats. They may implement the same copy protection mechanism, sources speculated, although Blu-ray has not announced its choice.


But the Blu-ray framers, shooting for higher storage capacity and future expandability, adopted a disk structure in which the recording layer sits on a 1.1-mm thick substrate and a 0.1-mm cover layer protects the recording surface. To focus on the recording layer, Blu-ray uses an objective lens with a numerical aperture of 0.85. That establishes it as a new format, with little continuity from current DVDs.


For HD DVD, by contrast, such continuity is a selling point. The disk is similar in structure to DVDs, with two 0.6-mm-thick platters bonded together. The lens aperture is 0.65, slightly higher than DVD's 0.6. The similarities make it easier to develop a single lens-pickup head that can drive all CDs, DVDs and HD DVDs; it also facilitates disk replication. Disk replication company Memory-Tech Corp., an HD DVD supporter, has been able to demonstrate the quick conversion of disk-processing lines from DVD to HD DVD.

Comeback proposal
The idea of partitioning usage, with HD DVD applied for ROM disks and Blu-ray for recording, was tabled by the DVD Forum before Blu-ray's proponents broke away from the forum to pursue their own spec. But the HD DVD camp has resubmitted that proposal, sources said at NAB.


A hybrid solution might be a good fit for the studios, which have diverging interests for the next-generation spec, sources said. Warner Bros. is reportedly seeking the lowest-cost medium, whereas capacity is said to be the priority for The Walt Disney Co.


But the hybrid proposal poses unanswered questions, such as how to design the laser pickup to accommodate lenses of different numerical apertures, and whether a device that supports two lenses can be made compact enough for mobile gear.


The other proposal seeks consensus on unifying the logical layer of next-generation disks, if not the physical disks themselves. That approach is attractive to studios because it would allow them to author a title and compile it for either platform with a minimum of effort.


It's a scenario that seems destined to confuse consumers and double sellers inventories. From an electronics industry standpoint, however, a unified logical layer for next-generation disks is a pragmatic approach that would lessen the software and hardware development burden. Player manufacturers could depend on a common set of application programming interfaces to handle interactivity. The approach, while less than perfect, could speed next-generation DVDs to market.

The gorillas
As the two sides negotiate to prevent a format war, two 800-pound gorillas loom over the proceedings.


One is the question of intellectual-property rights. "I do not see how you would compromise here to take parts of one technology and combine it with technology of the others," said Stuart Lipoff, partner at IP Action Partners (Newton, Mass.). In his view, successful negotiations to unify formats don't happen without all parties first "agreeing to pool all the patents on a royalty-free basis. . . . Toshiba and NEC throw into the pot their HD DVD patents, and Sony, Hitachi, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp and Thomson throw in their Blu-ray patents."


Second, Lipoff said, the players must "all meet together and agree on a product introduction road map that starts with HD DVD and has a future migration to Blu-ray." That second step is needed, he said, because "HD DVD has the advantage that existing manufacturing facilities can be used, so it can support a wider range of HD titles faster. But [its storage] capacity is lower than Blu-ray's, and there is concern about delivering the quality consumers will demand for long HD movies."


That will dictate a transition to Blu-ray over time, Lipoff said, even though that format will require manufacturing changes that will be "expensive to do."


During the first DVD format battle, 10 years ago, negotiations between the camps didn't get off the ground until Sony and Philips, in a surprise move, abandoned their proposed format but succeeded in forging an understanding that their IP would be included in the converged DVD format along with that of the competing camp, comprising Toshiba, Time Warner, Matsushita, Pioneer, Thomson and others.


Although the DVD Forum failed to create a one-stop patent pool for all intellectual property related to DVD, the spirit of IP sharing created the impetus for development of a unified format.


The other behemoth looming over the discussions is Microsoft Corp. Sources confirmed that the Blu-ray camp is developing its interactive software on the Java-based Multimedia Home Platform/Globally Executable Multimedia (MHP/GEM) platform. The HD DVD group has based all of its advanced software on a derivative of Microsoft's MSTV.


"On the software front, it is hard to imagine picking anything other than MHP," said IP Action's Lipoff. He called MHP the clear winner in the TV world, noting that it's widely used in Europe and is the underlying platform in the United States for the OpenCable Application Platform, developed by CableLabs, and the Advanced Common Application Platform for future interactive digital-TV broadcast services.


"For MHP, you already have development tools, experience and an installed base that will grow regardless of any DVD decision," Lipoff said. "I cannot imagine picking another software platform."


But another industry source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said he "can't imagine Microsoft giving up on interactive HD DVD. It's their heart and soul."


Both the Blu-ray and HD DVD disk formats can stand on their own, without using the advanced content APIs. But reportedly the studios have made it clear that the next-generation DVD format has to be more than just a movie player; advanced interactive and Internet capabilities will be requisite.


— Additional reporting by Rick Merritt

 

[sonycowboy]

The "BD-J" mode damn well better be in there. It will take Blu-Ray to some pretty fucking amazing places. Read more at the link I have below (the AV software BTW, was just ratified last month ) Seriously, it could make a Blu-Ray player take the place of the computer for many (assuming some players come with mass storage)

So Possible Approved Specs are:
-------------------------------------------
Storage capacity 25GB, 50GB (up to 200GB potentially)
Number of layers single-layer, dual-layer (up to 8 lasers potentially)
Laser wavelength 405nm
Numerical aperture 0.85
Protection layer 0.1mm
Data transfer rate 54.0Mbps - Single Speed (2x will be at product launch, 4x may be in PS3)
Video compression MPEG-2, MPEG-4, AVC VC-1
Audio compression Dolby Digital Plus, MLP Lossless
Video Resolution1920 x 1080 HD (50i, 60i and 24p), 1280 x 720 HD (50p, 60p and 24p), 720 x 576/480 SD (50i or 60i)
Software Exceed DVD feature set
The Blu-ray Disc movie distribution format was designed to offer all features and the familiar user interface model of DVD-Video. However, content producers have a wide array of new and extended features to be included in a Blu-ray Disc title. For this, two profiles are available:

"HDMV" mode
Offers all features of DVD-Video and more. The authoring process in line with DVD-Video creation.

"BD-J" mode
Offers unparalleled flexibility and features, because it is based on Java runtime environment. It allows for extensive interactive applications, and offers Internet connectivity.

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13628/Index.html

 

[sohka88]

To me HD DVD is a bad name.... similar to super cds.... This theore that consumers will adopt it because it sounds similar is not very well thought out.

 

[Hellraizah]

Are Blu-Ray discs supposed to come in a plastic shell, à la UMD/MiniDisc ?

If yes, go with Blu-Ray.

 

[sonycowboy]

Are Blu-Ray discs supposed to come in a plastic shell, à la UMD/MiniDisc ?

If yes, go with Blu-Ray.

No. Welcome to 2003.

 

[teh_pwn]

The more like BR in tech, the better. I want this format to last at least 10 years.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Hellraizah, the BRD format has been a true evolution and unless you follow BRD news (almost weekly) it is hard to know all the details...

When the Blu-ray format was first released, it was a write many recordable format (now called BRD-RE) used caddies and only used MPEG2 encode and decode...

Since 2003 there has been a SEA of upgrade/changes to the BRD format...

For example, since the development of a disk treatment process pioneered by TDK called "Durabis", there is no longer any need for caddies with Blu-ray and indeed Durabis coated BRD disks are less error prone and are more robust, physically that DVDs...

BRD is no longer just a write many format as there is now BRD-R (write once) and BRD-ROM for movies and games...

MPEG2 is still there but it will mostly be used just for recording movies, you also now have advanced video codecs like VC-1 and MPEG4 AVC HP for movies and you also have the best audio codecs available too (Dolby Digital Lossless, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD)

The format also has some kewl application features too (no layer changes, Multiple High Def GUI planes, Java UI and graphics framework and much more)



You can read about the BRD application layer here:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/bdj_gem_application_definition_050307-12959.pdf

And here is the Blu-ray whitepaper page with a metric ton of info:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13628/Index.html