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[heavenly]

I mean no disrespect. I don't understand all of the teachings of the Catholic church, and this one excerpt kind of confounded me. Anyone, really, care to explain about the two miracles needed for 'saintifying' pope John Paul II?

It will take years for the Vatican to gather all of the writings of Polish-born John Paul and to hear from witnesses testifying about his virtues. It must then certify a miracle attributed to his intercession after his death for him to be beatified. A second miracle is needed for him to be made a saint following beatification.

Link

 

[Mr. E. Yis]

Basically, they have to find 2 'miracles' (usually ailment cures from visitors who touched JP2). This should be the most rigorous and scientific "evidence"-search for miracles in Vatican history. But that means absolutely nothing when you look at the Church's 2000 year history of lying, and manipulating facts and evidence to suit its purposes.

Most likely they'll find a few overzealous believers who had some small health problem, visited the vatican, and came back hyped up on placebos and adrenaline. Somehow they got better, screamed bloody miracle, and get a similarly overzealous believer who's also a doctor to 'verify' their cure.

 

[heavenly]

Thanks. I didn't know that. Why are these miracles important for saintfying though?

 

[Instigator]

There are so many saints already, does it really matter? Besides, it's just a title.

 

[King Jippo]

Haha, some pretty jaded Catholics here.

 

[Mr. E. Yis]

Thanks. I didn't know that. Why are these miracles important for saintfying though?

You needs saints to help in your praying. The more saints the better. You sometimes pray to the saints to 'put in a good word' to Jesus, on their behalf. It's sort of like the mafia in a way.

 

[heavenly]

You needs saints to help in your praying. The more saints the better. You sometimes pray to the saints to 'put in a good word' to Jesus, on their behalf. It's sort of like the mafia in a way.

Wow. I didn't know that either. But, what I don't understand is, what's the purpose of the miracles? How do they correlate with the saintifying process? What do the miracles prove? Or why are they use to validate or begin the saintifying procedure? Wasn't JP2's life of righteous servitude good enough?

 

[Archaix]

Wow. I didn't know that either. But, what I don't understand is, what's the purpose of the miracles? How do they correlate with the saintifying process? What do the miracles prove? Or why are they use to validate or begin the saintifying procedure? Wasn't JP2's life of righteous servitude good enough?

Warning-I'm not a catholic.

The Miracles have to be in the name of the person up for sainthood. So somebody has to have prayed to Pope John Paul II since he died(not just praying in general, but asking for his help) and have had a miracle occur. It proves that he's more than just a dead guy, that he's special and has clout with god I guess.

 

[heavenly]

Warning-I'm not a catholic.

The Miracles have to be in the name of the person up for sainthood. So somebody has to have prayed to Pope John Paul II since he died(not just praying in general, but asking for his help) and have had a miracle occur. It proves that he's more than just a dead guy, that he's special and has clout with god I guess.

Oh! Now, I understand it. The miracles have to occur post-death, not prior, right? That's kind of silly. I mean, if JP2 can already communicate with Jesus (I'm assuming in Heaven)on behalf of the living people on Earth that prays in his (JP2) name, then isn't he "technically" a saint already?

I don't trust miracles either...as using it as the sole validation of proving something. I do believe they can occur and exist, but like everything else good in this world...it has a corrupted counterpart. I believe miracles can be wrought by evil agencies as well. So, who is to be trusted: A source that might be fabricated or a source that could be genuine? What I'm saying is, how do you prove the miracles to be true and certain? Bible? Catholic Bible? Life of the miracle performer? What?

 

[Macam]

What I'm saying is, how do you prove the miracles to be true and certain?

That's a contradiction in itself by the definition of a miracle.

 

[DDayton]

First of all, Catholics consider all those in Heaven with God to be saints. However, the Catholic Church can't presume to know who made it -- after all, you could live an outwardly good life but secretly stalk the streets at night and kill orphans. Therefore, the official title of "saint" is only conferred when the Church believes, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that someone did make it to Heaven.

Traditionally, the Church believes that if someone is in Heaven, they are in full communion and communication with God. This also means that they are much better able to ask God for a favor / help than anyone down here on earth is. If folks on earth can pray and ask God for help, so can folks in Heaven. The tradition of the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church is that folks on earth can ask dead folks in Heaven to ask God for help... sort of like if you wanted to ask the boss for a raise, but asked your uncle (the vice president) to ask for you.

The "two miracle" rule is set in place to determine whether someone actually made it to Heaven or not. If two miraculous events occur, in response to a personal prayer request made via the dead person, then it is assumed that the dead person is in Heaven.

...and the miracles -do- undergo a fairly healthy amount of scrutiny. If any medical doctor can come up with any natural reason why a sickness would have been reversed or cured, then it is deemed not to be a miracle. The events have to be completely lacking in natural (or "by modern medical and scientific understanding") explanation.