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China’s train wreck: High Speed system falls apart from corruption

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Ripclawe

Banned
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/chinas-train-wreck/2011/04/21/AFqjRWRE_print.html

China’s train wreck
By CHARLES LANE, Friday, April 22, 8:05 PM

For the past eight years, Liu Zhijun was one of the most influential people in China. As minister of railways, Liu ran China’s $300 billion high-speed rail project. U.S., European and Japanese contractors jostled for a piece of the business while foreign journalists gushed over China’s latest high-tech marvel.

Today, Liu Zhijun is ruined, and his high-speed rail project is in trouble. On Feb. 25, he was fired for “severe violations of discipline” — code for embezzling tens of millions of dollars. Seems his ministry has run up $271 billion in debt — roughly five times the level that bankrupted General Motors. But ticket sales can’t cover debt service that will total $27.7 billion in 2011 alone. Safety concerns also are cropping up.


Faced with a financial and public relations disaster, China put the brakes on Liu’s program. On April 13, the government cut bullet-train speeds 30 mph to improve safety, energy efficiency and affordability. The Railway Ministry’s tangled finances are being audited. Construction plans, too, are being reviewed.

Liu’s legacy, in short, is a system that could drain China’s economic resources for years. So much for the grand project that Thomas Friedman of the New York Times likened to a “moon shot” and that President Obama held up as a model for the United States.

Rather than demonstrating the advantages of centrally planned long-term investment, as its foreign admirers sometimes suggested, China’s bullet-train experience shows what can go wrong when an unelected elite, influenced by corrupt opportunists, gives orders that all must follow — without the robust public discussion we would have in the states.


The fact is that China’s train wreck was eminently foreseeable. High-speed rail is a capital-intensive undertaking that requires huge borrowing upfront to finance tracks, locomotives and cars, followed by years in which ticket revenue covers debt service — if all goes well. “Any . . . shortfall in ridership or yield, can quickly create financial stress,” warns a 2010 World Bank staff report.

Such “shortfalls” are all too common. Japan’s bullet trains needed a bailout in 1987. Taiwan’s line opened in 2007 and needed a government rescue in 2009. In France, only the Paris-Lyon high-speed line is in the black.

This history counseled caution about introducing bullet trains in China, where the typical passenger was still a migrant worker, not a businessman rushing to a meeting. To be sure, there was an economic case to be made for upgrading China’s lumbering rail system: It would free up limited rail capacity for freight trains, thus reducing truck traffic on congested roads. Beijing’s initial feasibility studies envisioned the gradual introduction of trains that would move at a maximum 125 mph, according to Caixin, the Chinese economic magazine.

But Liu Zhijun — part Cornelius Vanderbilt, part Sammy Glick — took over the rail ministry in March 2003 and urged officials to aim for speeds above 200 mph. “Seize the opportunity, build more railways, and build them fast,” he wrote.

Liu exploited the communist leadership’s fascination with bigness and national prestige. Among the benefits he promised was a chance to squeeze foreign companies for bullet-train technology so that China could build and export its own. What happened next suggests that he — and others — also saw the potential for graft in such a vast undertaking.

In 2004, the State Council signed off on Liu’s plan to build the world’s largest high-speed-rail network by 2020. The first leg, a 72-mile stretch between Beijing and Tianjin, would open in time for the 2008 Olympics.

Word went forth that state-owned banks and local governments were to give Liu all the money, land and labor he required. When Chinese journalists found that Liu’s ministry was using cheap, low-quality concrete, creating a safety hazard, the Communist Party’s propaganda department quashed the reports, according to a January piece in the South China Morning Post.

Students and other humble citizens greeted the first fast trains with complaints about high ticket prices. They crowded aboard buses instead. According to a recent report in China Daily, the government was forced to deploy 70,000 extra buses during the Chinese New Year celebrations in February.

This month, I rode the bullet train from Beijing to Tianjin in half an hour — then returned by bus, which took two hours. Next to me on the decrepit, but packed, vehicle was a 17-year-old girl migrating to Beijing to search for work. She had never heard of the high-speed train, but when informed it cost $9, as opposed to $5.40 for the bus, expressed no regret at missing it. The bus driver assured me the girl was typical of his working-class clientele; to them, even a little money is more valuable than a lot of time. Small wonder that the Beijing-Tianjin line, built at a cost of $46 million per mile, is losing more than $100 million per year.

Meanwhile, in the United States, Obama’s high-speed rail plan, originally set at $53 billion over six years, has gotten a thorough democratic vetting. Three freshly elected Republican governors spurned federal dollars for high-speed rail, fearing a long-term burden on their budgets; homeowners in liberal Northern California are fighting construction through their neighborhoods; and the president agreed with Congress to trim current-year spending as part of a budget deal.

On the whole, I’d say China should envy us.

Charles Lane is a member of the editorial page staff. Yale Law School’s China Law Center sponsored his travel to China.
 

Brannon

Member
Simpsons did it first :mad:

Seriously though, you just don't fuck with trains; it's not something that can bear much corruption compared to other transportation alternatives.
 
Rather than demonstrating the advantages of centrally planned long-term investment, as its foreign admirers sometimes suggested, China’s bullet-train experience shows what can go wrong when an unelected elite, influenced by corrupt opportunists, gives orders that all must follow — without the robust public discussion we would have in the states.
That's not too far off from what happens in the States either, except that the elected do what the elite and corporations tell them.
 

GG-Duo

Member
I'm quite sick and tired of China's corruption issues and sweep-it-under-the-rug attitude towards reporting.
 

numble

Member
They intended to run up debt to build these railways. Looking at the total debt is also misleading--because comparing China Railways to GM is comparing apples and oranges--China Railways is a much larger operation and one should look at the debt/equity ratio, and it is about 56%, which is similar to or lower than that of other countries, or other railway building outfits.

The corruption and having to lower speeds from 220 mph to 190 mph are bad things, of course.

But I don't think anyone ever expects infrastructure spending is going to pay itself off quickly in ticket sales, anywhere. The idea is to improve the climate for other business activity. And in China's case, reduce the burden on the old general railroads that are cramped during the Spring Festival, where people already have to pay exorbitant prices (similar to the price of high speed tickets) from scalpers to go on long and slow train rides home. As well as free up old passenger rails for freight service.

I think this piece by Damien Ma in The Atlantic is more objective and better than Post's US-centric analysis:
http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...nas-long-bumpy-road-to-high-speed-rail/73192/


GG-Duo said:
I'm quite sick and tired of China's corruption issues and sweep-it-under-the-rug attitude towards reporting.
What do you think of Caixin? I think corruption reporting is on a much better footing lately than say, reporting about activists and dissidents.
 
JGS said:
The article seems to suggest that trains are a failure to implement anyway.
It's the Washingon Post :).
I think this piece by Damien Ma in The Atlantic is more objective and better than Post's US-centric analysis:
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...ed-rail/73192/
I wouldn't call the Post US-Centric as much as it is pure free market centric. It's a right wing rag if there ever was one.

edit:

Meanwhile, in the United States, Obama’s high-speed rail plan, originally set at $53 billion over six years, has gotten a thorough democratic vetting. Three freshly elected Republican governors spurned federal dollars for high-speed rail, fearing a long-term burden on their budgets; homeowners in liberal Northern California are fighting construction through their neighborhoods; and the president agreed with Congress to trim current-year spending as part of a budget deal.

On the whole, I’d say China should envy us.

Charles Lane is a member of the editorial page staff. Yale Law School’s China Law Center sponsored his travel to China.
lol.
 

m3k

Member
china does everything so big that if its not done right its a big fuck up...didnt they steal the designs from the germans?
 

numble

Member
OpinionatedCyborg said:
It's the Washingon Post :).

I wouldn't call the Post US-Centric as much as it is pure free market centric. It's a right wing rag if there ever was one.
Yeah, I should've said Republican-centric. But it is free market centric in that regards I guess, in terms of railing against government infrastructure spending. I think it's weird because some of the most free market friendly places in the world, like Hong Kong, and to some extent the business climate in China with its often lack of regulations and management unless you start doing sensitive activities, have free market business people actually welcome government investment in areas like infrastructure spending.

And I shouldn't have accredited the analysis to the Post, since it's an Op-Ed.
 

Medalion

Banned
m3k said:
china does everything so big that if its not done right its a big fuck up...didnt they steal the designs from the germans?
I've sold monorails to Brockwood, ogdenville, north haverbrook, and China
 

Zzoram

Member
Basically, if corruption wasn't an issue, this project would've been much safer and cheaper.

High speed trains aren't the problem, the people who run the projects are.
 

Gaborn

Member
Zzoram said:
Basically, if corruption wasn't an issue, this project would've been much safer and cheaper.

High speed trains aren't the problem, the people who run the projects are.

"Communism isn't the problem, it's that it's been attempted by humans!"
 

Deku

Banned
This im commonplace is most command economies, and can happen in relatively free economies like the US, as all economies have elements of central control.

What's different in China of course is the scale of it all, and you essentially have a relative thin crust of elites, not even corporations, but simply party elites controlling everything. I noted a while back there will be a moment of reckoning for China in a similar fashion to Japan but many times worse given the scale of the corruption and the amount of bureaucratically motivated projects that will likely have low to negative returns on investment. Even if we assume all the projects are competently built, which is not going to be the case, the idea of negative return on investments is going to catch up eventually.

The 'bridge to nowhere' syndrome is endemic of the Japanese political experience as well, where the LDP, with a virtual monopoly on power through the boom years, brought home the bacon by shrewdly doling out projects to grease the wheel of local governments and bureaucracy. This is great when the projects are ongoing and the economy growing. Construction workers have jobs, companies have an endless stream of government stimulus money, and the government has a growing tax base to collect revenues with which to siphon back into spending more on projects.

And this can go on for a while as China, like Japan is using trade surpluses to finance growth, so even if there is negative returns on investments made last year, it can be covered up with a large current account surplus and inflow of foreign capital into the economy. Essentially 'growing the pie' to hide parts that aren't growing.

But that inevitably won't last. An outside shock, like the real estate bubble bursting, can trigger a series of events that shrinks revenue and the overall pie to the point where even increased stimulus and spending cannot extricate the economy from a downward spiral.
 
GhaleonEB said:
....without the robust public discussion we would have in the states.​
Bwahahaahahahahaha

I took that to mean discussion in the media and the like, not debate in congress. They would get skewered in the press if that happened here. In china, the media wont report it.
 

Slayven

Member
Semi-related. I was watching House Hunters International this week and they had an ep where a family was looking for a home in China. The place they ended up buying was a highrise apartment in a building less then 5 years old and already the building had severe water damage. And they payed almost 700k US for it. I thanked Mike Holmes for building codes.
 

WillyFive

Member
Trains rule.

I wish the Prez and his crew went ahead with the High Speed Rail thing.

We surely could have handled it better than China. They have corruption, all we have to worry about it are whether people would use them or not.
 

numble

Member
Zzoram said:
Basically, if corruption wasn't an issue, this project would've been much safer and cheaper.

High speed trains aren't the problem, the people who run the projects are.
The gist of the article isn't even that corruption caused this, even though the title suggests it.

The gist of the article is that China's spending too much on high speed trains that won't pay back.

The corruption is a problem, but it's already estimated to be a small portion of the overall debt. He stretches the idea of corruption to not going through the checks that NIMBYs and Republicans can provide--but that is a criticism of the debt burden, not what the ex-minister did.

The speed isn't apparently lowered because of safety concerns--other articles say it's to reduce costs because every extra 10 kph above a certain threshold requires a lot more energy, and they're reducing costs and reducing ticket prices along with that. He likens it to shutting down the ex-minister's program, but that's only because he was adamant about being above 200 mph. It's now 14 mph below 200 mph, so it technically qualifies as putting "the brakes on Liu’s program" of staying above 200 mph, and building at a very fast pace.

But it's not a scrapped program according to The Atlantic:
It said that those close to the railway ministry do not think the rail plans will be scrapped--too far along for an overhaul. But the recent episode is having something of a ripple effect internally in perhaps rethinking how to approach projects that have yet to break ground or contemplating tweaking the pace of existing projects. Given the stature of Caixin, its coverage will likely trigger more voices to come forward and lend critics some ammunition. Perhaps the "pro-gradualism" camp will even revive its pugilistic spirit.
http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...nas-long-bumpy-road-to-high-speed-rail/73192/

Finally, those anti-infrastructure continue to neglect the externalities of infrastructure investment, focused solely on return-on-investment. The subways and the bus systems all over China are other examples of losing propositions investment-wise (and the subways especially are often encounter corruption problems). Fares cost pennies and dimes for service that is much better than say, New York, but they have provided positives to businesses and the populace generally would be less happy, have less opportunities, and have lower quality of life otherwise. I think the current fares for HSR are too high, but they've already started adjusting and will adjust over time, just like how subway and bus fares have decreased over time in Beijing, especially on a value per RMB basis, while service has improved. The Spring Festival mass migration proves that there is a need for the excess capacity.
 

Deku

Banned
Referring to my post numble?

It's not anti-infrastructure, but rather the decision to spend on infrastructure is suboptimal when you have corrupted bureaucrats with no oversight running the show.

Topics like this always go any number of ways and I don't see it as a matter of being pro or anti something but simply stating well known outcomes from the experiences of the already industrialized world.

For a rural agrarian economy like China, there's plenty of infrastructure investments that even corruption can't fuck up, because when you add a road to a rural community, even if you pocket half the expenses, you're still probably improving output by a significant margin.

But bullet trains, and other infrastructure are another ball game, and to say negative ROI can simply be ignored is apologia. I sometimes have to wonder if the Chinese government is actually paying you to post on NeoGAF.
 
Deku said:
This im commonplace is most command economies, and can happen in relatively free economies like the US, as all economies have elements of central control.

What's different in China of course is the scale of it all, and you essentially have a relative thin crust of elites, not even corporations, but simply party elites controlling everything. I noted a while back there will be a moment of reckoning for China in a similar fashion to Japan but many times worse given the scale of the corruption and the amount of bureaucratically motivated projects that will likely have low to negative returns on investment. Even if we assume all the projects are competently built, which is not going to be the case, the idea of negative return on investments is going to catch up eventually.

The 'bridge to nowhere' syndrome is endemic of the Japanese political experience as well, where the LDP, with a virtual monopoly on power through the boom years, brought home the bacon by shrewdly doling out projects to grease the wheel of local governments and bureaucracy. This is great when the projects are ongoing and the economy growing. Construction workers have jobs, companies have an endless stream of government stimulus money, and the government has a growing tax base to collect revenues with which to siphon back into spending more on projects.

And this can go on for a while as China, like Japan is using trade surpluses to finance growth, so even if there is negative returns on investments made last year, it can be covered up with a large current account surplus and inflow of foreign capital into the economy. Essentially 'growing the pie' to hide parts that aren't growing.

But that inevitably won't last. An outside shock, like the real estate bubble bursting, can trigger a series of events that shrinks revenue and the overall pie to the point where even increased stimulus and spending cannot extricate the economy from a downward spiral.


Honestly, this isn't China's biggest problem. To ride out the recession they literally built "Cities to nowhere" that were built to stimulate economic activity, which is creating a pretty bad housing bubble, which in and of itself isn't insurmountable, but China is having income stratification that rivals the US where the kickback culture is letting the party and new money elites take pretty much all the economic investment from the people. We're talking Gilded Age robber barons.

You know those cities to nowhere? Only speculators buy them. The average Chinese citizen cannot afford any of the new housing.

When the bubble finally bursts, not only will these noveau elites lose a huge portion of assets, all these real estate properties will annihilate what little income the middle class has.
 

numble

Member
Deku said:
Referring to my post numble?

It's not anti-infrastructure, but rather the decision to spend on infrastructure is suboptimal when you have corrupted bureaucrats with no oversight running the show.

Topics like this always go any number of ways and I don't see it as a matter of being pro or anti something but simply stating well known outcomes from the experiences of the already industrialized world.

For a rural agrarian economy like China, there's plenty of infrastructure investments that even corruption can't fuck up, because when you add a road to a rural community, even if you pocket half the expenses, you're still probably improving output by a significant margin.

But bullet trains, and other infrastructure are another ball game, and to say negative ROI can simply be ignored is apologia. I sometimes have to wonder if the Chinese government is actually paying you to post on NeoGAF.
I was referring to Lane. Why would I be referring to your post, when Zzoram was clearly referring to Lane?
Did you read Lane's piece? Did you read Ma's piece?
He brought up corruption, and then shifted quickly to the problems of debt-driven infrastructure investment.
I'll ignore your ad hominem attacks. Nothing in what I said was positive about the Chinese government, but about the idea of infrastructure investment. I never said ROI was to be ignored either, another strawman attack. Saying that the focus should not be solely on ROI does not mean that I'm saying you should ignore ROI--otherwise why would I bring up the point of decreasing costs (which improves ROI) via decreasing speed?
 
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Natetan

Member
lots of big projects in capitalist economies had difficulties initially.

Odaiba seemed like a white elephant initially, but the yurikamome line and rinkai line are set to pay back ahead of schedule and odaiba is now very popular.

canary wharf was seen as a disaster initially too, and now its an important part of london.

i say give this five ten years, and then let's talk. this article is a perfect example of wanting short term payback on things.

of course the corruption is retarded, but building the trains was a good idea. that girl on the bus will be riding the train once she actually has a job and is making a bit more money
 

thefro

Member
So how much money would have China made had they spent all those billions on new roads?

The idea that rail has to break even when we already subidize oil production and maintain/build roads without the government getting money in return is BS.
 

Takuan

Member
China's corruption is a terminal cancer that will inevitably doom the entire country. Those responsible will get away scott free, of course, spending the rest of their lives bathing in liquid money.
 

Pastry

Banned
ElectricBlue187 said:
The corruption will ruin China. Foreign companies are already sick of it and now that China's low wage advantage is in decline...
In addition to their low wages becoming more unattractive I believe transportation costs are also on the rise, especially within China itself. China will not become the monster economy people make it out to be because of the ineptitude of the government to fix things like corruption among a couple of other things.
 
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