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CIA, Bush Admin knew of Venezuela coup in 2002

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Triumph

Banned
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/03/news/venez.html

Aside from the nonsense about the Castro hugging and "left-leaning politician", this is a veeeeeeeeeeeery interesting article. Our government knew about a potential coup against a democratically elected President in a foreign country and did nothing to inform him of it. Could it have anything to do with Chavez' refusal to suckle at the IMF/World Bank/WTO teat?

I wonder!
 

Triumph

Banned
Saturnman said:
Latin America doesn't need democracy.
But they do! Provided it's the kind of democracy in which you are forced to sell off everything to foreign investors to receive aid.
 
I'm not fan of Chavez, but

Bush administration blamed Chávez, a left-leaning populist, for his own downfall and denied knowing about the threats.

.. this administration doesn't take responsibility, does it?
 

Socreges

Banned
To be forward, democracy only matters when states potentially threaten the security of the USA. It doesn't matter if South America is ravished by poverty and irresponsible governments, so long as they don't have oil or nuclear facilities.
 

Triumph

Banned
Socreges said:
To be forward, democracy only matters when states potentially threaten the security of the USA. It doesn't matter if South America is ravished by poverty and irresponsible governments, so long as they don't have oil or nuclear facilities.
Ah... but Venezuela DOES have oil. A lot of it, too.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Raoul Duke said:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/03/news/venez.html

Aside from the nonsense about the Castro hugging and "left-leaning politician", this is a veeeeeeeeeeeery interesting article. Our government knew about a potential coup against a democratically elected President in a foreign country and did nothing to inform him of it. Could it have anything to do with Chavez' refusal to suckle at the IMF/World Bank/WTO teat?

I wonder!

But Wait! There is more! laughable that Chavez did not know about any plots against him

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/international/americas/03venezuela.html


In a senior intelligence executive brief dated April 6 - one of several documents obtained by Jeremy Bigwood, a freelance investigative reporter in Washington and posted on at www.venezuelafoia.info/, Öcq keep the slash a pro- Chávez Web site - the C.I.A. said that "disgruntled senior officers and a group of radical junior officers are stepping up efforts to organize a coup against President Chávez, possibly as early as this month." Those intelligence briefs are typically read by as many as 200 officials in the Bush administration.

The same brief said the plot would single out Mr. Chávez and 10 senior officials for arrest. It went on to say that the plotters would try to "exploit unrest stemming from opposition demonstrations slated for later this month" or from strikes staged by white-collar workers at the state oil company. Two days later, another brief stated flatly: "Disgruntled officers are planning a coup."

The documents do not show that the United States backed the coup, as Mr. Chávez has charged. Instead, the documents show that American officials issued "repeated warnings that the United States will not support any extraconstitutional moves to oust Chávez."

In interviews with The New York Times and other news organizations in the days after the coup, administration officials vigorously denied having had advance knowledge of plans to oust Mr. Chávez, whom they blamed for the uprising.

Hours after Mr. Chávez was overthrown, Ari Fleischer, then the White House spokesman, said, "the Chávez government provoked the crisis," while Philip Reeker, a State Department spokesman, said that "undemocratic actions committed or encouraged by the Chávez administration provoked yesterday's crisis."

State Department officials interviewed Wednesday stressed that the United States repeatedly warned opposition leaders against trying to remove Mr. Chávez through unconstitutional means. They also said that a senior American diplomat met with Mr. Chávez a week before the coup and warned him of the plot.

"I did say to him, there are all these rumors of coup plotting, which we were very concerned about, and he almost dismissed them," the diplomat, who asked not to be named, said in an interview from Washington. "He was dismissive of that, as if it were no big thing."

But questions remain over how much the United States told Mr. Chávez. A 95-page report produced after the coup by the State Department's inspector general on the American role during the Venezuelan crisis devoted only one sentence to warnings the United States made to Mr. Chávez about a possible plot.

The C.I.A. said that its role was not to provide information to the Venezuelans. Speaking by phone from Washington, a spokeswoman said the agency's responsibility was to ascertain what was transpiring in Venezuela, make an educated prediction on what could happen and then pass the information to the State Department.

The possibility of a coup in the weeks before it actually happened was no secret, with dissident military officers openly talking about the need to remove Mr. Chávez.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Raoul Duke said:
Ah... but Venezuela DOES have oil. A lot of it, too.

and Chavez continues to sell it to us, he can make himself out to be the next Castro of South America, but he knows where the money lies. Nice job of him turning Venezuela into a bigger mess than it was before though, that takes talent.


Aside from the nonsense about the Castro hugging and "left-leaning politician",

They forgot the Mugabe love!!!
2004022707201327-mugsy.jpg


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez praised Zimbabwe's embattled President Robert Mugabe as a "freedom fighter," bestowing the visiting African leader with a replica of South American independence hero Simon Bolivar's sword.

"I give you a replica of liberator Simon Bolivar's sword," Chavez said Thursday after the two leaders signed an energy co-operation agreement.

"For you, who like Bolivar, took up arms to liberate your people. For you, who like Bolivar, are and will always be a true freedom fighter," Chavez said. "He continues, alongside his people, to confront the pretensions of new imperialists."
 
The issue here isn't whether Chavez knew or not, but whether or not the Bush administration did. This part of the article bothered me : " [the Bush administration] denied knowing about the threats." Is this a trend in the adminstration? To not know what is going on? Or is there something else going on?

Chavez apparently has the support of his people. He did survive an internationally-watched referendum. He's not going to annoy me because progress for equal rights here in the US isn't blocked by him.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Hammy said:
The issue here isn't whether Chavez knew or not, but whether or not the Bush administration did. This part of the article bothered me : " [the Bush administration] denied knowing about the threats." Is this a trend in the adminstration? To not know what is going on? Or is there something else going on?

Chavez apparently has the support of his people. He did survive an internationally-watched referendum. He's not going to annoy me because progress for equal rights here in the US isn't blocked by him.

Probably someone knew in the White House, it was expected to happen. Chavez has support of those who buy into his lies about wishing to help them with middling social programs to show he cares, in reality they are just for show and nothing else.

HE has managed to chase off the middle class and above from the country, he is working hard to make himself a dictator for life. As for that election, Carter endorsed it which is good enough for me to say they were not legit.
 
Ripclawe said:
Probably someone knew in the White House, it was expected to happen.
then why didn't the White House say so?

Chavez has support of those who buy into his lies about wishing to help them with middling social programs to show he cares, in reality they are just for show and nothing else.

HE has managed to chase off the middle class and above from the country, he is working hard to make himself a dictator for life.
omg yet another sucky world leader. How scary. Living under one makes me numb to that fact.

As for that election, Carter endorsed it which is good enough for me to say they were not legit.

I'm not too familiar with the criticisms of Carter and other international observers. Please explain.
 

Triumph

Banned
Ripclawe said:
Probably someone knew in the White House, it was expected to happen. Chavez has support of those who buy into his lies about wishing to help them with middling social programs to show he cares, in reality they are just for show and nothing else.

HE has managed to chase off the middle class and above from the country, he is working hard to make himself a dictator for life. As for that election, Carter endorsed it which is good enough for me to say they were not legit.
Hahaha.

Well at least I know where you stand on that one! Yeah, the election wasn't legit. Sure. So why did the coup leaders put him back in power when they had him locked up? Peasants with pitchforks, I'm thinking.

Don't worry, tho. One day down the road some peasants with pitchforks will come for US Corporate Overlords, too. I don't think they'll be dissuaded with promises to do better, either.
 

Dilbert

Member
If the Bush Administration knew about the coup and didn't warn him...that means that they tacitly approved of it.

I'm sick of the damn doubletalk and doublethink from this administration.
 
-jinx- said:
If the Bush Administration knew about the coup and didn't warn him...that means that they tacitly approved of it.

I'm sick of the damn doubletalk and doublethink from this administration.

Apparently the State department sent somebody, but the Bush adminstration claims to have to have no clue.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
-jinx- said:
If the Bush Administration knew about the coup and didn't warn him...that means that they tacitly approved of it.

I'm sick of the damn doubletalk and doublethink from this administration.




God damn it don't make me take sides with Ripclaw. If the US knew a coup was coming and did nothing so fucking what? It's not the USs job to look after everyone elses back, be it a democraticly elected president in Venezuela, or the freedom starved Iraqis. The US is under no obligation to another country it is in danger, that's that countries problem. Whether the US approved or not is irrelevent. If I know my next door neighbor is getting set up to be killed I don't owe it to him to tell it's coming. Nor does that imply that I'm for or against him being bumped off.
 

Socreges

Banned
ShadowRed said:
It's not the USs job to look after everyone elses back, be it a democraticly elected president in Venezuela, or the freedom starved Iraqis.
That's his point. "Doubletalk". That the Bush administration appeals to "spreading freedom" and all that after any legitimiate excuse for the Iraqi war was erased, and now here's a pretty obvious indication that they couldn't care less.

That happened to be the point of my post, too, though maybe I should have investigated a little more before throwing in the traditional oil slam. :)
 

Triumph

Banned
ShadowRed said:
God damn it don't make me take sides with Ripclaw. If the US knew a coup was coming and did nothing so fucking what? It's not the USs job to look after everyone elses back, be it a democraticly elected president in Venezuela, or the freedom starved Iraqis. The US is under no obligation to another country it is in danger, that's that countries problem. Whether the US approved or not is irrelevent. If I know my next door neighbor is getting set up to be killed I don't owe it to him to tell it's coming. Nor does that imply that I'm for or against him being bumped off.
Wow, you'd make about as great a neighbor as our country does global policeman.
 

Dilbert

Member
ShadowRed said:
If the US knew a coup was coming and did nothing so fucking what? It's not the USs job to look after everyone elses back, be it a democraticly elected president in Venezuela, or the freedom starved Iraqis. The US is under no obligation to another country it is in danger, that's that countries problem. Whether the US approved or not is irrelevent. If I know my next door neighbor is getting set up to be killed I don't owe it to him to tell it's coming. Nor does that imply that I'm for or against him being bumped off.
Two things:

1) First, aren't we supposed to be defending the little flowering sprigs of democracy and freedom around the world? Or is that just convenient rhetoric to cover our real goals in Iraq?

2) The Bush Administration denied supporting the coup. However, by knowing about plans for a coup and NOT telling the target, doesn't that equal "support?" If I see you about to shoot someone, have the power to stop you, but choose not to...then I'm supporting your action by my inaction, and I'm responsible.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Is this a trend in the adminstration? To not know what is going on? Or is there something else going on?
Never take responsibility, and make sure that nobody makes you, yes.

I always wanted America to have its own state-run media, you know.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
then why didn't the White House say so?

He was told, and from the White House POV, if he is gone, good riddance. The charge was the White House knew about this particular plot and also was behind hit with US helicopters in Venzuela waiting to take chavez.

omg yet another sucky world leader. How scary. Living under one makes me numb to that fact.

which leader is that?

I'm not too familiar with the criticisms of Carter and other international observers. Please explain.

Well let's go thru the Summary of why Jimmy Carter sucks.

Jimmy Carter loves his dictators and sucks up to more enemies of America than any other ex-politician known to man.

Joshua Muravchik 1994 New Republic.

Kim Il-Sung: "I find him to be vigorous, intelligent, surprisingly well informed about the technical issues, and in charge of the decisions about this country”...“I don’t see that they [the North Koreans] are an outlaw nation.” Pyongyang, he observed, was a “bustling city,” where shoppers “pack the department stores,” reminding him of the “Wal-Mart in Americus, Georgia.”

Marshall Tito: a man who believes in human rights.

Nicolae Ceausescu:Our goals are the same. ... We believe in enhancing human rights. We believe that we should enhance, as independent nations, the freedom of our own people."

Also liked Assad of Syria, Mengistu of Ethiopia, meddled a lot in Haiti that even Clinton didn't care much, his admiration of Castro , his defending China human right policies, tried to sink the first Iraq War, and animosity towards Israel gets worse each year.


As for his observer status, Carter has proven more to be a rubber stamp than an active and effective observer in Venezuela

http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110005509

even the European Union declined to show up

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200408041638

The EU regrets that it cannot deploy an observation mission to the referendum in Venezuela. Unfortunately, it has not been possible to secure with the Venezuelan electoral authorities the conditions to carry out observation in line with the Union's standard methodology used in all countries where EU election observation missions are deployed. Nonetheless the EU expresses its support for international missions that will deploy observers to the forthcoming referendum, in particular the role of the Carter Centre and the OAS.



in Haiti

http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940921.html

In December 1990, Carter traveled to Haiti, where he labored to undercut Jean-Bertrand Aristide during the final days of the presidential race. According to a top Aristide aide, Carter predicted that Aristide would lose, and urged him to concede defeat. (He ended up winning 67 percent of the vote.)

Since then, Carter has developed a warm regard for Haiti's bloodthirsty armed forces. Returning from his recent mission to Port-au-Prince, Carter actually expressed doubt that the Haitian military was guilty of human rights violations.

Haiti is actually iffy as Carter has supported Aristide to the point where everyone else jumped off the bandwagon that Carter finally said Aristide was wrong.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
-jinx- said:
Two things:

1) First, aren't we supposed to be defending the little flowering sprigs of democracy and freedom around the world? Or is that just convenient rhetoric to cover our real goals in Iraq?

If Venezuela was a flowering spring of democracy, sure. But its not and Chavez is an active threat to US interest, giving indirect support to FARC next door in columbia.

2) The Bush Administration denied supporting the coup. However, by knowing about plans for a coup and NOT telling the target, doesn't that equal "support?" If I see you about to shoot someone, have the power to stop you, but choose not to...then I'm supporting your action by my inaction, and I'm responsible.

Chavez was told of the plans, officers were talking openly about the plans and Chavez dismissed it. America is not under obligation to help those we are not "friendly" with, that's global politics. No one said it was nice.
 
Ripclawe said:
He was told, and from the White House POV, if he is gone, good riddance. The charge was the White House knew about this particular plot and also was behind hit with US helicopters in Venzuela waiting to take chavez.
No, I wanted to know why they didn't tell the press but instead claimed that they didnt know.

which leader is that?
Bush


Well let's go thru the Summary of why Jimmy Carter sucks.

Jimmy Carter loves his dictators and sucks up to more enemies of America than any other ex-politician known to man.

Carter endorsed it which is good enough for me to say they were not legit.

Alright, this is why you don't like him. But why does that fact that he support something negate its value? If Carter "endorses" school reading, does it make it illegitamate?
 
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