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[Zushin]

Hey GAF,

So after playing guitar for 12ish years I've finally decided to delve into some deeper theory stuff. First I just wanted to check what I *think* I know about the Circle of Fifths is correct after some research and then a question.

1. My understanding is each segment going clock wise around the circle represents the fifth note in a particular scale eg. In C major scale G is the fifth note in the scale thus it goes to the right of the C in the circle?

2. The relative minor on the inside of the circle represents the minor scale that shares the same notes as the corresponding major scale on the outside so again using C major, it's relative minor scale is A minor and they share the same notes?

3. You can track the number of sharps and flats in a key by adding one sharp to each segment after C going clockwise or a flat to each segment counter clockwise? So B major has 5 sharps?

4. You can build major or minor chords by using a root note on the circle, adding a fifth and a Major third for major chords or minor third for minor chords. A major third is the diagonal clockwise note on the circle and a minor third is the corresponding major note on the circle. So to make a C major chord you would start with a root (C), a fifth (G) and a Major third (E) and to make an A minor chord you'd have Root (A), fifth (e) and a minor third (C). Is this right?

5. You can use the circle to identify chord progressions. Using I-V-IV progression for example using C as your I chord you can identify the Five chord to the right of the I chord (G) and the IV chord to the left (F)?

If that is correct my question would be how to identify chord progressions for minor scales? When would you use a minor chord or when to use a major chord?

I still haven't gotten into understanding diminished and augemenred chords, how to build them and when they are used so that's my next port of call.

Sorry for the long post!

Thanks.

 

[Risible]

In case you didn't know: Guitar Gaf. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1318447

I know this question isn't solely about guitars, just thought I'd mention it .

 

[Zushin]

In case you didn't know: Guitar Gaf. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1318447

I know this question isn't solely about guitars, just thought I'd mention it .

Oh cheers!

 

[Simon Belmont]

If that is correct my question would be how to identify chord progressions for minor scales? When would you use a minor chord or when to use a major chord?

Chord composition is a different question. A major chord is made up of R, 3, 5 and the minor chord has a flat third. The major or minor chord either 'fits' into the scale or it doesn't.

The key of G has a G major, because it's R ,3, 5 are G, B, and D. The key of G also has E minor in it because it's R, 3, 5 are E, B, and G. If it was an E major the G would be sharp and therefore it wouldn't 'fit' in the key of G. Does that make sense?


Edit: To clarify major / minor scales, the minor scale is just a 'mode' of the major scale. Go E to E in a G major scale and you have the E minor scale. Every key has a relative minor. An easy way to figure it out is just go three frets back from the major if you're looking at a guitar.

Further edit: What the next poster said

 

[greenhadoken]

The circle is C - G - D - A - E - B/Cb - F#/Gb - C#/Db - Ab - Eb - Bb - F - C
If you move through that from left to right, it's moving in fifths, meaning that G is the fifth note of the C major scale, D is the fifth note of the G major scale, etc. If you go from right to left, we call that the circle of fourths for the same reason. B/Cb - F#/Gb - C#/Db are the same pitch (or enharmonic notes). If you raise a pitch by a half-step (the smallest increment in music), you call it sharp, and when lower a pitch by a half-step, you call it a flat note.

The order of the sharps is F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#
The order of the flats is Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb
These are the opposite of each other

C has no sharps or flats
G has one sharp (so F#)
D has two sharps (F#, C#)
A has three sharps (F#, C#, G#)

F has one flat (so Bb)
Bb has two flats (Bb, Eb)
Eb has three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab)
etc.

The relative minor is the inner circle typically on a circle of fifths chart. The relative minor to each major scale is based off of the 6th note in the major scale.

The relative minor of C major is A minor, because A is the 6th scale degree in a C major scale. The minor of Bb major is G minor, because G is the 6th scale degree of Bb major.

Yes a major chord (triad) is a root, major third, and perfect 5th above that (or minor 3rd above the third)
A minor triad is a root, minor third, and perfect 5th (or major 3rd above the third)
An augmented triad is a root, major third, and an augmented 5th above that (or major 3rd above the third)
A diminished triad is a root, minor third, and a diminished 5th above that (or a minor 3rd above the third)

You're sort of right about using the circle to find common progressions, most songs from older eras of music conform to progressions that move in fifths.

Music theory is my favorite thing ever, I could do this all day haha

 

[Simon Belmont]

Hey greenhadoken - Had this argument with a piano player. If there is no 7th, can you have a 9th chord? I say no!

 

[Rock And Roll]

If that is correct my question would be how to identify chord progressions for minor scales? When would you use a minor chord or when to use a major chord?

It works the same way as how the minor is relative to the major scale.

Your chords in a major scale are as follows:

I MA - II mi - III mi - IV MA - V Ma - VI mi - VII dim

So when we switch over to minor, it looks like this:

I mi - II dim - III MA - IV mi - V mi - VI MA - VII MA

Edit: @Simon I'm with you. If there is no 7th, there can't be a 9th. At that point it's more of an add2 theoretically.

 

[ghst]

sharps and flats are for those diatonic heathens my chromatic brethern.

i recommend fretboard mastery by troy stetina if you want a book about applying theory to your meathead guitar brain. i'm going through a similar process and just about getting ahold of identifying indivdual chord voicing by ear.

he's an old school shredder who's grown sage in his middle age and has a nice mellow vibe to his writing which doesn't make you feel like a loser dweeb doing homework.

 

[greenhadoken]

Hey greenhadoken - Had this argument with a piano player. If there is no 7th, can you have a 9th chord? I say no!

Well that's tricky...it depends on how the chord is named. If the chord is called Cadd9, then yes, you can have a chord without a 7 and a 9th. But if the chord is C9, you have to have that 7 in there, otherwise you're playing a different chord. There's a reason we specify between Cadd9 and C9

C9 would technically contain C, E, G, Bb, D
Cadd9 would be C, D, E, G

 

[Zushin]

An augmented triad is a root, major third, and an augmented 5th above that (or major 3rd above the third)
A diminished triad is a root, minor third, and a diminished 5th above that (or a minor 3rd above the third)

So if we had a C augmented chord it would have C, E and G#? (major thirds have 4 intervals between root and itself?)
And a C diminished would be C, D# and F#? (minor thirds have 3 intervals between root and itself?)

It works the same way as how the minor is relative to the major scale.

Your chords in a major scale are as follows:

I MA - II mi - III mi - IV MA - V Ma - VI mi - VII dim

So when we switch over to minor, it looks like this:

I mi - II dim - III MA - IV mi - V mi - VI MA - VII MA

Edit: @Simon I'm with you. If there is no 7th, there can't be a 9th. At that point it's more of an add2 theoretically.

So say a D minor I-V-IV would use Dm - Am - Gm?

 

[Affeinvasion]

The circle of fifths won't help you as much when you start venturing into modes other than major and minor. You can build a scale on any scale degree within a key like D Dorian with no sharps and flats.

Once I had a basic handle of the circle of fifths and could reproduce it, I found it very helpful to learn both the standard nature of chords (MAJ, min, or dim) but also the whole and half step relations of scales. It makes it way easier to learn scales on guitar if you have those memorized.

Like major is WWHWWWH

Dorian is: WHWWWHW

Phyrgian is: HWWWHWW

You can probably see where that's going.

 

[Affeinvasion]

So if we had a C augmented chord it would have C, E and G#? (major thirds have 4 intervals between root and itself?)
And a C diminished would be C, D# and F#? (minor thirds have 3 intervals between root and itself?)


So say a D minor I-V-IV would use Dm - Am - Gm?

You would spell a Cdim chord as C-Eb-Gb to keep the standard triad lettering.

As for minor progressions you almost always use mixture (borrowing the chord from the parallel major key--in this case the key of D major) to make a major V. Minor Vs are pretty uncommon in most common practice music.

 

[greenhadoken]

So if we had a C augmented chord it would have C, E and G#? (major thirds have 4 intervals between root and itself?)
And a C diminished would be C, D# and F#? (minir thirds have 3 intervals between root and itself?)

Yes, C augmented would be C E and G#

C diminished would be C, Eb, and Gb, which is basically what you wrote. The difference is the lettering. When spelling triads, we never use two letters of the alphabet right next to each other, so instead of spelling the chord C, D#, and F# (where C and D are next to each other), we go every other and say C, Eb, and Gb. Also think about all the triads as modifications to a major triad.

C major is C E G
C minor is C Eb G (notice how I lowered the E, so I used a flat sign instead of calling it D#)
C augmented is C E G# (again, I call it G# because when we augment something we are making it bigger, thus raising the note instead of calling it Ab. It was never A to begin with)
C diminished is C Eb and Gb (when we diminish something we are lowering, thus the flat signs)


So say a D minor I-V-IV would use Dm - Am - Gm?

No, the typical diatonic triads in the minor scale are:

i - iidim - III - iv - V - VI - viidim

In western harmony we almost always use the major V chord. Actually, the V chord is major in both the major scale and minor scale because it functions as the dominant to tonic. The other names for the scale degrees are:

1- Tonic
2- Supertonic
3- Mediant
4- Subdominant
5- Dominant
6- Submediant
7- Leading tone

If the V chord is minor (v) it wouldn't contain the most important note, the leading tone, which aurally diminishes the significance of the V-I relationship, which is perhaps the most powerful resolution in music (some might argue that the V-I (G-C) is equally as powerful as the four minor 6 to one (Fm6-C) as they are negative harmonies)

 

[greenhadoken]

You would spell a Cdim chord as C-Eb-Gb to keep the standard triad lettering.

As for minor progressions you almost always use mixture (borrowing the chord from the parallel major key--in this case the key of D major) to make a major V. Minor Vs are pretty uncommon in most common practice music.

Actually, the major V chord is borrowed from the harmonic minor mode, not the parallel major. In harmonic minor, the 7th is raised. Which is bizarre, because in the major III chord, the 7th is lowered and taken from the natural minor mode, and the 7th is again raised for the diminished vii chord. Weird shit!

 

[Spladam]

I highly recommend getting a keyboard and looking at this chromatically on the keys, they conveniently make your sharps and flats stand out

Seriously though, it's a good visual tool for intervals, and how they group and relate between modes. As guitarist this helped me out greatly, is still helping me out.

 

[Rock And Roll]

So say a D minor I-V-IV would use Dm - Am - Gm?

That is correct.

Greenhadoken and affeinvasion, since the major scale and minor scale are relative, I'm fairly certain the chords are the same, just in different order. It's been a long time since I've done theory in college, but making the V chord major in a minor scale would imply changing the notes, which mean you would no longer be in minor (or aeolian if you want to get fancy )

Mr. Spladam is right about getting a cheap keyboard. It's way easier to visualize chords and see how they relate on the piano. If you are flat broke, you can literally just draw a keyboard on a piece of paper and do it that way, but actually hearing the chords helps a lot.

 

[greenhadoken]

That is correct.

Greenhadoken and affeinvasion, since the major scale and minor scale are relative, I'm fairly certain the chords are the same, just in different order. It's been a long time since I've done theory in college, but making the V chord major in a minor scale would imply changing the notes, which mean you would no longer be in minor (or aeolian if you want to get fancy )

Mr. Spladam is right about getting a cheap keyboard. It's way easier to visualize chords and see how they relate on the piano. If you are flat broke, you can literally just draw a keyboard on a piece of paper and do it that way, but actually hearing the chords helps a lot.

Nope, they are different. They are not based on the relative minor, they are based on the relative harmonic minor. Trust me

 

[Zushin]

C major is C E G
C minor is C Eb G (notice how I lowered the E, so I used a flat sign instead of calling it D#)
C augmented is C E G# (again, I call it G# because when we augment something we are making it bigger, thus raising the note instead of calling it Ab. It was never A to begin with)
C diminished is C Eb and Gb (when we diminish something we are lowering, thus the flat signs)

Ah that's a good way to think of it. So a sort of formula you could use would be:

Major (M) = Root (R) , Third (T), Fifth (F)
Minor = M with flattened T
Aug = M with sharpened F
Dim: M with flattened T and flattened F

For myself that definitely makes it easier think about that way.

 

[Rock And Roll]

Nope, they are different. They are not based on the relative minor, they are based on the relative harmonic minor. Trust me

Yes but that's the key, you are in the harmonic minor. We're talking about the chords in the minor.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Music learners, would you have any interest in a Tetris type game that helps you learn chord spellings (C is CEG, Gmaj7 is GBDF#, etc.)? I'm working on an idea.

 

[Zushin]

Music learners, would you have any interest in a Tetris type game that helps you learn chord spellings (C is CEG, Gmaj7 is GBDF#, etc.)? I'm working on an idea.

Definitely! I think visual cues are super helpful to learning for myself so something like that would be awesome.

 

[greenhadoken]

Yes but that's the key, you are in the harmonic minor. We're talking about the chords in the minor.

??? It's not as simple as borrowing the chords from the parallel major. When we shift to parallel minor, the 7th note of the minor scale is raised by a half-step. It is done because the resolution of 7-1 by half step is much stronger than 7-1 by whole step. This is why the V chord is always major, even in the minor scale. Trust me, I have my masters in this

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

Thanks for the insights, Greenhadoken. I wondered why the i7 - V7 change in a minor blues (e.g. The Thrill is Gone) sounded good.

 

[Fugu]

OP, don't get too hung up on trying to understand all of the implications of the cycle of fifths, because there are a lot of them and it will pop up in a lot of places. For example, when you're changing to a different key, more proximate scales on the cycle of fifths will sound closer than less proximate scales, regardless of the distance of the roots.

The most important things to know about the cycle of fifths are probably:
- How it relates to key signatures
- The fact that it is also a cycle of fourths
- How it relates to the content of a scale

The last one is a bit heavy but the first two should be easy enough.

I'm a big theory guy, by the way. I love it.

That is correct.

Greenhadoken and affeinvasion, since the major scale and minor scale are relative, I'm fairly certain the chords are the same, just in different order. It's been a long time since I've done theory in college, but making the V chord major in a minor scale would imply changing the notes, which mean you would no longer be in minor (or aeolian if you want to get fancy )

Mr. Spladam is right about getting a cheap keyboard. It's way easier to visualize chords and see how they relate on the piano. If you are flat broke, you can literally just draw a keyboard on a piece of paper and do it that way, but actually hearing the chords helps a lot.

This is technically correct but misleading. It is somewhat difficult to adequatly explain why without going down the rabbit hole, but I'll try.

The natural minor scale - the one that is a mode of the major scale - has suboptimal characteristics for diatonic harmony. The V7-I major cadence works so well because of the leading tone being a semitone from the tonic. Scales that get used in diatonic harmony either tend to have this relationship in a good part of the scale (major, dorian) or have it shoehorned in by changing the scale pattern (harmonic/melodic minor).

The natural minor has the tritone in a weird place. It makes the ii half-diminished (good) and the V minor (bad); the harmonic minor is so named because of its vastly more useful harmonic language than the natural minor. iv-V7-i conforms well to subdominant-dominant-tonic, but iv-v-i doesn't. Again, it is rather difficult to explain cleanly why this is the case, but there's plenty of evidence to support it. Music written in the natural minor is actually relatively rare and a contemporary phenomenon. It isn't well-suited to functional or modal harmony.

There are some other scales that are just alterations of others with more favorable/natural tritone placements.

The lydian mode is great for modal composing but has very strange functional relationships (I-#ivdim-V never stops being weird and changing it to V7 displaces the tonic). The lydian dominant mode, however, works a fair bit better in a functional context. C Lydian Dominant looks like this: CDEF#GABb. You might also note that that's the fifth mode of G melodic minor. There's also a phrygian dominant (CDbEFGAbBb, fifth mode of F harmonic minor).

It is much more accurate for most purposes to view the natural minor scale as a teaching tool and a logical stopgap that makes digesting the non-diatonic minor scales a lot easier as opposed to a compositional tool with the usefulness on par with the major scale. Many relationships that aren't analogous between the major and natural minor scales - I-IV-V, ii-V-I, and, indeed, the entite division of chords into tonic, subdominant and dominant - actually are analogous when they are applied to the harmonic minor scale.

Anyway, like I said, it's complicated.