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Destiny |OT8| Whine and Cheese

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T

Twilight Gap

Member
post from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheG...e_atheon_timestream_fix_is_flawed_design_and/

Normally I don't like these sort of posts, but this week's weekly update contains a very important line that the community needs to speak up about:

The encounter goal for Atheon is to act as a climax and the culmination of learning for a given Raid group. Part of that is making sure that each player in your group can perform every job as required. A change will take effect next week which fixes a bug with Atheon's target selection. When using its Timestream ability, Atheon will select 3 players at random, instead of choosing the three players furthest from it.

This is a horrible design decision for the game. The purpose of organising a team to do content is that you can assign people to particular roles and make sure you cover everyone's strengths appropriately. Not only does this "fix" make the encounter much more frustrating for groups to complete, but it creates situations where you simply can't afford to raid with people that can't do 100% of the encounter - this is incredibly alienating for new raiders and pickup groups alike.

Got a guy with Atheon's Epilogue and the increased oracle damage upgrade? Great, stick him on the portal team, that will make the run a bit smoother. Got a guy that's having trouble dealing with the Supplicants? That's alright, give him a chance in the portals - we don't have to replace him just because he's having trouble with one aspect.

Giving players the ability to strategise and find the most efficient people to complete a given task is a good thing. There is a reason groups select a particular person to be the relic holder - it's because they're good at it, and it makes the experience more enjoyable when they know they can rely on that person to perform their job correctly.

Now, when you're doing Vault of Glass with a few people you don't know, the following is going to be something you'll commonly hear:

Okay, Atheon is about to port. Okay, it's done. Who got sent? Crap, I'm not there. Oh, uh, crap, who can take the relic. Uh.. can you guys work that out? Guys quick you need to kill the.. yep, that's a wipe.

This is not good encounter design. This takes control out of the players' hands, and adds a frustrating level of RNG that will only make the encounter more difficult for people that aren't already mopping the floor with Atheon with their existing clans.

As a raid leader, I am more than happy to bring inexperienced people into Vault of Glass. I like being able to teach people how the fights work, and learning together - because I know that once we get to Atheon, I can assign them to a role appropriate to their skill, and they should be able to pick it up and enjoy their experience. Now, if there is one player that, for whatever reason, struggles with one aspect of the fight, I have to make the decision as raid leader to remove them from the group. I should not have to make this decision just to complete a boss encounter.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
Korosenai said:
Do it. Ive got the heart of praxic fire, and its why im making an alt.

And besides, you need an alt anyways.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the question is do I make another hunter to get to 30 faster by running raids, or do I make a Warlock?

--

Also, I am listening to the linked podcast in the weekly and they are talking about how they don't want there to be a grind. And progression to be natural. Interesting.
 
K

Korosenai

Member
figadapaura said:
Decided to buy Cryptic Dragon instead. Already got one ages ago from an engram, but I dismantled it because I never use Scout Rifles. Gonna fix that.
Click to expand...

BananasWithGuns said:
Just bought mine the other day. It puts in some serious work in the Crucible. Haven't gotten it fully upgraded yet though.
Click to expand...
The Cryptic Dragon was the first legendary I ever purchased, and ive had it since the third or fourth week of the game...... I dismantled it last night since I have the Vision of Confluence. The Dragon is a great gun, but that auto fire on Vision just cant be beat.
 
N

Navy Bean

Member
Speaking of Raids, anyone on XboxOne want to run through on normal in about an hour?

So far we have 2 with plenty of experience:

dmh33
Iceman829
 
S

SharkJAW

Member
Zoba said:
post from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheG...e_atheon_timestream_fix_is_flawed_design_and/

Normally I don't like these sort of posts, but this week's weekly update contains a very important line that the community needs to speak up about:

The encounter goal for Atheon is to act as a climax and the culmination of learning for a given Raid group. Part of that is making sure that each player in your group can perform every job as required. A change will take effect next week which fixes a bug with Atheon's target selection. When using its Timestream ability, Atheon will select 3 players at random, instead of choosing the three players furthest from it.

This is a horrible design decision for the game. The purpose of organising a team to do content is that you can assign people to particular roles and make sure you cover everyone's strengths appropriately. Not only does this "fix" make the encounter much more frustrating for groups to complete, but it creates situations where you simply can't afford to raid with people that can't do 100% of the encounter - this is incredibly alienating for new raiders and pickup groups alike.

Got a guy with Atheon's Epilogue and the increased oracle damage upgrade? Great, stick him on the portal team, that will make the run a bit smoother. Got a guy that's having trouble dealing with the Supplicants? That's alright, give him a chance in the portals - we don't have to replace him just because he's having trouble with one aspect.

Giving players the ability to strategise and find the most efficient people to complete a given task is a good thing. There is a reason groups select a particular person to be the relic holder - it's because they're good at it, and it makes the experience more enjoyable when they know they can rely on that person to perform their job correctly.

Now, when you're doing Vault of Glass with a few people you don't know, the following is going to be something you'll commonly hear:

Okay, Atheon is about to port. Okay, it's done. Who got sent? Crap, I'm not there. Oh, uh, crap, who can take the relic. Uh.. can you guys work that out? Guys quick you need to kill the.. yep, that's a wipe.

This is not good encounter design. This takes control out of the players' hands, and adds a frustrating level of RNG that will only make the encounter more difficult for people that aren't already mopping the floor with Atheon with their existing clans.

As a raid leader, I am more than happy to bring inexperienced people into Vault of Glass. I like being able to teach people how the fights work, and learning together - because I know that once we get to Atheon, I can assign them to a role appropriate to their skill, and they should be able to pick it up and enjoy their experience. Now, if there is one player that, for whatever reason, struggles with one aspect of the fight, I have to make the decision as raid leader to remove them from the group. I should not have to make this decision just to complete a boss encounter.
Click to expand...
Zoba, I wish I had an eternal agreement gif because I pretty much never find myself disagreeing with your posts.
 
F

figadapaura

Member
Korosenai said:
The Cryptic Dragon was the first legendary I ever purchased, and ive had it since the third or fourth week of the game...... I dismantled it last night since I have the Vision of Confluence. The Dragon is a great gun, but that auto fire on Vision just cant be beat.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it still hasn't dropped for me. :(
 
jadedm17

jadedm17

Member
Special C said:
So I feel like Im stuck at Level 23. All I can find are blues with a little bit of light. My vanguard Level is going so slowly. Is that the only way I'm going to break the glass ceiling? By ranking up and buying purples?
Click to expand...
Thats the most reliable way - after you can keep buying to pull apart for shards. I see a lot of complaining of leveling vanguard but just do bounties its not too bad. I dont even focus on it anymore and im nearing 4 in both vanguard and crucible.
 
B

BraXzy

Member
Lmao. That feel when you get half of your 6 man teams total score. Yet grt nothing while everyone else is rewarded. Cmon game I still have greens on this lock for gods sake!
 
K

Key2001

Member
The encounter goal for Atheon is to act as a climax and the culmination of learning for a given Raid group.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this. Are this saying that the raid is suppose to take everything you have learned so far and put it to use in the raid? If so, at what point was someone suppose to learn to handle the relic outside of the raid?

I also don't understand how they basically talk about nerfing auto-rifles because it became the weapon of choice, then turn around and create a situation where this will have to be done to complete the raid.
 
P

postcyberpunk

Banned
That reddit guy nails it... reflects the ideas in my previous post perfectly. I am not doing the VoG again, which means I will probably play the game 2-3 hours a week. Down from 15-20. What shall I do with my free time? Oh, right. GTAV, bitches.

I'll be back for the DLC because I already bought it, but damn, the game finally feels "done" for me.


Overdoziz said:
I like the random teleport. Makes the fight a bit more challenging and it means people can't be carried as easily.
Click to expand...

Carried? You mean finding a role and doing it well?
 
T

Twilight Gap

Member
SharkJAW said:
lol, I agreed with your super balance opinion, too, if that's any consolation.
Click to expand...

eh, i read a post about that immediately after i posted that so there are some changes i'd make as well.

my opinion of the supers is that they should be trump cards, but you shouldn't need other supers or other teammates to counter them. they should require as much skill from the person using them as they do from those fighting against them. bungie may not necessarily have the same idea in mind though.
 
Z

ZangBa

Member
Jest Chillin said:
How does it give them more freedom when everyone is DPS? Aside from making a mechanic that requires a Titan Bubble or Lock Revive, the classes largely do slightly different flavors of the same things. So there's nothing like trading aggro, cleansing, buffing/debuffing, etc... Without class role defining differences, there's plainly less options. In fact, that's the whole reason why The Relic exists. To give a player or players a new, unique set of skills that has a very specific role in the fight, adding to the complexity.

And the odds aren't that low when you consider that you need consecutive rolls to work out with only 1 of the 3 predetermined Relic holders in a single run.

Don't get me wrong. Good players will adapt. Average players will face a harder learning curve that will result in a lot of wipes.
Click to expand...

No tanking or healing frees people up to more possibilities. People aren't going to be forced into those role every encounter, they don't have design mechanics that create situations where the same thing is necessary every single time. Things like cleansing and buffing are just boring busy-work skills that no one actually likes doing during a boss fight. As for the relic, it's not a mechanic exclusive to Destiny, it's actually pretty common. We could argue about this all night but we are just on completely different wavelengths here, I don't think either one of us are going to be convinced otherwise.

It doesn't need to port just 1 of the 3, it could be all 3, we just set up priorities. A simple "I got the relic" is enough, if multiple people say it they will know amongst themselves who is top priority.
 
X

X-Frame

Member
As someone who's only completed the raid once so far, I don't like this new upcoming change.

I'll try and get in a few runs this weekend though and maybe I can try to do all jobs, except the relic holder, during the final encounter. The first time I just stayed outside and shot things.
 
D

Deku Tree

Member
Zoba said:
post from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheG...e_atheon_timestream_fix_is_flawed_design_and/

Normally I don't like these sort of posts, but this week's weekly update contains a very important line that the community needs to speak up about:

The encounter goal for Atheon is to act as a climax and the culmination of learning for a given Raid group. Part of that is making sure that each player in your group can perform every job as required. A change will take effect next week which fixes a bug with Atheon's target selection. When using its Timestream ability, Atheon will select 3 players at random, instead of choosing the three players furthest from it.

This is a horrible design decision for the game. The purpose of organising a team to do content is that you can assign people to particular roles and make sure you cover everyone's strengths appropriately. Not only does this "fix" make the encounter much more frustrating for groups to complete, but it creates situations where you simply can't afford to raid with people that can't do 100% of the encounter - this is incredibly alienating for new raiders and pickup groups alike.

Got a guy with Atheon's Epilogue and the increased oracle damage upgrade? Great, stick him on the portal team, that will make the run a bit smoother. Got a guy that's having trouble dealing with the Supplicants? That's alright, give him a chance in the portals - we don't have to replace him just because he's having trouble with one aspect.

Giving players the ability to strategise and find the most efficient people to complete a given task is a good thing. There is a reason groups select a particular person to be the relic holder - it's because they're good at it, and it makes the experience more enjoyable when they know they can rely on that person to perform their job correctly.

Now, when you're doing Vault of Glass with a few people you don't know, the following is going to be something you'll commonly hear:

Okay, Atheon is about to port. Okay, it's done. Who got sent? Crap, I'm not there. Oh, uh, crap, who can take the relic. Uh.. can you guys work that out? Guys quick you need to kill the.. yep, that's a wipe.

This is not good encounter design. This takes control out of the players' hands, and adds a frustrating level of RNG that will only make the encounter more difficult for people that aren't already mopping the floor with Atheon with their existing clans.

As a raid leader, I am more than happy to bring inexperienced people into Vault of Glass. I like being able to teach people how the fights work, and learning together - because I know that once we get to Atheon, I can assign them to a role appropriate to their skill, and they should be able to pick it up and enjoy their experience. Now, if there is one player that, for whatever reason, struggles with one aspect of the fight, I have to make the decision as raid leader to remove them from the group. I should not have to make this decision just to complete a boss encounter.
Click to expand...

Nailed it. Nobody is going to want to fight Atheon anymore with inexperienced raiders who keep dying. Bungie seems too reactionary. They are making me feel like a beta tester. The game is out. Fine fix the exploits. But changing the whole dynamic of a boss encounter is lame in a finished game.
 
E

everyday math

Banned
Deku Tree said:
Nailed it. Nobody is going to want to fight Atheon anymore with inexperienced raiders who keep dying. Bungie seems too reactionary. They are making me feel like a beta tester. The game is out. Fine fix the exploits. But changing the whole dynamic of a boss encounter is lame in a finished game.
Click to expand...
This is how I feel.
Hell stuff people pointed out in the actual "Beta" was never fixed.
 
K

Key2001

Member
postcyberpunk said:
That reddit guy nails it... reflects the ideas in my previous post perfectly. I am not doing the VoG again, which means I will probably play the game 2-3 hours a week. Down from 15-20. What shall I do with my free time? Oh, right. GTAV, bitches.

I'll be back for the DLC because I already bought it, but damn, the game finally feels "done" for me.
Click to expand...

Basically what I am leaning towards doing. I will probably log-in for the Heroic Weekly, Nightfall and Xur, and hope things change when the DLC is released (since I already bought it).
 
S

Subtervotion

Member
Deku Tree said:
Nailed it. Nobody is going to want to fight Atheon anymore with inexperienced raiders who keep dying. Bungie seems too reactionary. They are making me feel like a beta tester. The game is out. Fine fix the exploits. But changing the whole dynamic of a boss encounter is lame in a finished game.
Click to expand...

This is the key problem here. Bungie made their bed. Just sleep in it, Bungie. Bungie coded the game to take the three farthest people away from Atheon. If they legitimately thought the internet wouldn't figure that out eventually they are naive. Code the game the way you want it the first time around and think your Raid through properly next time. I know its easy to point fingers and I don't claim to know anything about developing a game, but its pretty easy to take a deep breath and ask yourself if the player base will exploit something.
 
D

darkistheway

Member
If they are going to randomize the Atheon encounter, they might as well just have random matchmaking for the raid.

I played the raid for the first time last night. We finally succeeded after everybody got their roles right. That took three hours (probably 1.5 hours on Atheon).

Randomizing those roles is just plain stupid. I'm getting tired of Bungie telling me how to play this game.
 
I

Iceman829

Member
Navy Bean said:
Speaking of Raids, anyone on XboxOne want to run through on normal in about an hour?

So far we have 2 with plenty of experience:

dmh33
Iceman829
Click to expand...

We can also put the gaf raiders clan tag on for the achievement for completing a raid with all clan members.

Just finishing up the daily mission on my alternate and i'll be ready to shoot dudes in the face
 
N

Navy Bean

Member
Deku Tree said:
Nailed it. Nobody is going to want to fight Atheon anymore with inexperienced raiders who keep dying. Bungie seems too reactionary. They are making me feel like a beta tester. The game is out. Fine fix the exploits. But changing the whole dynamic of a boss encounter is lame in a finished game.
Click to expand...
It's just a stupid change. Period. I've never been in a raid without a few newer players and this would kill it.

Hey, why not randomize everything? Remove all strategy. Teleport people to different rings in the first phase. Give a random person a relic at the Templar. Silly bungie.
 
E

EroticSushi

Member
Mythoclast
In this week's Hotfix, we reduced the efficacy of the Vex Mythoclast, the drop players who beat Atheon on Hard have a chance to earn for their achievement. Our nerf was intended to target PVP play - where we felt and heard that Mythoclast was over-performing - but it also reduced its effectiveness in PVE.

Our PVE nerf was stronger than we intended and we are going to fix Mythoclast in PVE.
Click to expand...

m9eQ9Rh.jpg


NeOak said:
Wait, wasn't the sparrow upgrade 10 coins?

Why is it 23 coins now?
Click to expand...

It's always been 23.
 
O

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Church RvB said:
This is the key problem here. Bungie made their bed. Just sleep in it, Bungie. Bungie coded the game to take the three farthest people away from Atheon. If they legitimately thought the internet wouldn't figure that out eventually they are naive. Code the game the way you want it the first time around and think your Raid through properly next time. I know its easy to point fingers and I don't claim to know anything about developing a game, but its pretty easy to take a deep breath and ask yourself if the player base will exploit something.
Click to expand...

just wow. i think you are simplifying game development, design, and coding just a wee bit there.

i for one am all for changes to remove the cheese factor from the game. hell, any game.
 
A

Atilac

Member
I have the last check point for the raid on hard, any warlocks wanna help push him off? I can take 5 gaffers with me on this. My PSN is Atilac
 
ElRenoRaven

ElRenoRaven

Member
Deku Tree said:
Nailed it. Nobody is going to want to fight Atheon anymore with inexperienced raiders who keep dying. Bungie seems too reactionary. They are making me feel like a beta tester. The game is out. Fine fix the exploits. But changing the whole dynamic of a boss encounter is lame in a finished game.
Click to expand...

Yup. There went my desire to raid anymore. I like it but I am better at doing certain things hence I do those to help the team. With this I'm stuck being a burden to the team if I get left doing a job I am not good at in the raid.
 
B

BraXzy

Member
Is there a quick way to acquire trash greens and blues? I'm getting sick of constantly running out of upgrade mats on my warlock and titan while my hunter sits there with 1500 sapphire wire just chillin.
 
S

Subtervotion

Member
op_ivy said:
just wow. i think you are simplifying game development, design, and coding just a wee bit there.

i for one am all for changes to remove the cheese factor from the game. hell, any game.
Click to expand...

This is exactly way I said "I know its easy to point fingers and I don't claim to know anything about developing a game".

I know its not an easy job. But if you wanted the people to get teleported to be random, why not code it to be RANDOM. Bungie didn't have enough foresight to realize the internet would figure these things out. Hindsight is 20/20.
 
D

Deku Tree

Member
Doing today's bounty I just glitched into the end of a story mission on Mars... I understand that happens in a strike, but when you're loading a story mission solo it's kind of weird.
 
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