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[DF] Mark Cerny talks Dolby Atmos support for PlayStation 5

Thick Thighs Save Lives

NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
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In the wake of our reporting on PlayStation 5's new Dolby Atmos support in last week's DF Direct Weekly, Sony's marketing team got in touch with a response from PS5 lead system architect, Mark Cerny, on how the new surround sound set-up actually works. In the Direct, we speculated that the PS5's existing, very impressive Tempest 3D audio data was most likely being recalculated and injected into the Dolby Atmos 'container'.

If you think about it, this is an innovative solution but it's also the only way that the PS5's existing library of titles can actually work with Atmos set-ups as until now, developers would not have mastered audio to support the 7.1.4 speaker system.

In his statement, Mark Cerny takes us through the entire audio pipeline in PlayStation 5 and how support has been extended to accommodate the extra speakers that an Atmos set-up supplies. The nature of Sony's solution means that the Atmos support is entirely lag-free, in contrast to some issues we've had with Xbox and Windows PCs. Is this solution actually an Atmos mix though? It's 'as good as' from a mathematical perspective, but with full support now added, sound engineers can master their audio mixes on full Atmos-spec equipment, meaning there's scope for further improvement.

Here's the complete breakdown:

It's probably easiest to talk about Tempest-based 3D Audio and the Dolby device support in terms of Ambisonic audio, which is increasingly popular these days (note there are other strategies for 3D Audio, including ones that use discrete 3D audio objects, but situation is rather similar).

Ambisonic audio can be viewed as a pretty radical extension of stereo audio. With stereo audio, the game's audio engine (or the middleware being used) will add a sound source into one or both channels based on its location - if the source is to the right of the listener it's primarily added into the right channel, and so on. With Ambisonic audio, there are a lot more channels - fifth order is very common and uses 36 channels, so it allows pretty good locality to the audio. A sound source is then added into those 36 channels based on location; the math is a bit more complex than when using stereo but not overwhelmingly so. Because the audio processing is channel based (albeit at 36 channels rather than 2 channels), the audio designer keeps very good control of mixing, filters, etc., and strategies like dynamic range compression (where audibility of certain important audio such as player character voice is ensured) can be used as usual.

The Ambisonic audio channels are then handed off to the Tempest 3D AudioTech engine for rendering, which is to say that the Tempest engine uses the player's HRTF and the speaker locations to create an appropriate audio stream for each speaker. The Ambisonic audio channels encode all directions, including above the player; even if rendering for headphones, this is very important, because it allows a sound "above" the player to be processed in such a way to sound as if it is truly coming from above - this is of course where the HRTF with its encoding of head and ear shape comes in.

Up until the most recent update, the Tempest engine would render the information in the Ambisonic channels into headphones, stereo TV speakers, and 5.1 and 7.1 audio setups. Now 7.1.4 has been introduced, with its four overhead speakers, but really nothing changes in the overall Tempest rendering strategy - the 36 Ambisonic channels already include audio coming from all directions, including above the player. To put that differently, the support of the four overhead speakers is "first class" support, they are handled just like any other speakers. Also note the rendering latency for these new speaker setups is identical to what it has been in the past for stereo, 5.1 and 7.1.

As a result, the 7.1.4 experience for existing games should be quite good. It is true that the game teams could not test with these speaker setups but support should be pretty automatic, the necessary game audio data is already there in Ambisonic form. Going forward, there's an opportunity for improvement as the sound designers can verify the highest quality of audio on 7.1.4 speaker setups as well.

- Mark Cerny, Lead System Architect of the PS5


This statement made its way into the upcoming DF Direct Weekly #124, going public tomorrow, where John Linneman and myself discuss Mark's comments and also our 'crowd-sourced' testing on surround sound latency. That's on top of a range of other news topics that have combined to deliver what may be the longest Direct we've ever done, so look out for that tomorrow at 16:00 BST.

 
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Heimdall_Xtreme

Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
I like cerny, because he support Gravity Rush and that detail is appreciated. Now which headphones support Double atmos?
 

Magic Carpet

Gold Member
I spent a lot of money on my Atmos surround system. Glad I can use it for a few more years.

Now if only GM would go back to supporting Apple Carplay. :messenger_angry:
Why GM, Why?
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
I spent a lot of money on my Atmos surround system. Glad I can use it for a few more years.

Now if only GM would go back to supporting Apple Carplay. :messenger_angry:
Why GM, Why?
I rented a brand new GMC Terrain a couple of weeks ago that had wireless CarPlay. Was pretty nice.
 
Never had lag ever with Atmos on XBO, XSX, or PS5. People usually don’t know how to setup their system and then come on the internet and blame the tech and not themselves. eARC must be set to pass through to avoid latency.
That maybe true for you but nobody has a root to the issue because a lot of people have reported lag issues it could be the tv/receiver manufacturers 🤷‍♂️ I just wanted to clear up the "sony marketing" bit because it was actually DF complaining about lag and they've talked about it throughout the years..
 

Pedro Motta

Gold Member
Never had lag ever with Atmos on XBO, XSX, or PS5. People usually don’t know how to setup their system and then come on the internet and blame the tech and not themselves. eARC must be set to pass through to avoid latency.
Dude, there ARE issues with the Dolby Atmos on XSX and Windows PC. I've spent days on forums and researching possible solutions to no avail, Internet is filled with people with the same issues with systems that are properly configured. Even John from DF said that there is an issue, you think he doesn't have it properly set up?
 
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Kings Field

Member
cool, now when are their ear buds releasing and will I be able to utilize this sound on them? Im oblivious when it comes to sound
 
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TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
This is probably an answer to the wonderful work John did in his last Direct Weekly.

Nice to see John works get appreciated even by Mark Cerny.
Yes and no, John made assumptions and believed the PS5's Dolby Atmos reverted back to Dolby Digital + if you didn't have the height speakers, also believing that the Object based surround was Height Speakers dependent.
This is not the case and any AV can output Object Based Surround with the minimum of two speakers, obviously the more speakers the better
But Dolby Atmos as we know it only engages when a speaker set-up that's required is detected and when its not it reverts back to DD+.
This is what John thought was happening with the PS5's Dolby Atmos.
But it doesn't, the PS5 Still outputs Dolby Atmos with Object Based Surround with 7.1 or 5.1 set-ups and phantom's the heights like it does the others channels.
So telling people they don't gain anything is wrong on his part, the difference is massive and the height sounds are present.
He obviously didn't test it and just assumed.
This is something Sony has been pushing in AV world with the TA-AN100 "making speakers appear from nowhere" to quote What Hi-fi.
But then I didn't really expect DF to been experts in Audio technology too.

Edit also no dynamic track is gonna be better then a pre engineered track you get in films unless it's a cutscene.
This has always been the case even with 5.1 in the early 2000's
 
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VulcanRaven

Member
The headphones I bought for Xbox came with a code to redeem to enable the Atmos license. I used them without Atmos for months then found the code and redeemed it. The difference was incredible. Definitely worth ten bucks. I'd pay extra for Atmos on headphones on PS5, too.
I have the Xbox Wireless Headset with Atmos and I'm not completely sold on it. I tried Cyberpunk and wasn't impressed but Forza 5 sounded great.
 

Lone Wolf

Member
I have the Xbox Wireless Headset with Atmos and I'm not completely sold on it. I tried Cyberpunk and wasn't impressed but Forza 5 sounded great.
I’m not telling you to spend more money, but some games sound better with the DTS headphone codec, which you have to pay for like the Atmos one.
 

Fake

Member
Yes and no, John made assumptions and believed the PS5's Dolby Atmos reverted back to Dolby Digital + if you didn't have the height speakers, also believing that the Object based surround was Height Speakers dependent.
This is not the case and any AV can output Object Based Surround with the minimum of two speakers, obviously the more speakers the better
But Dolby Atmos as we know it only engages when a speaker set-up that's required is detected and when its not it reverts back to DD+.
This is what John thought was happening with the PS5's Dolby Atmos.
But it doesn't, the PS5 Still outputs Dolby Atmos with Object Based Surround with 7.1 or 5.1 set-ups and phantom's the heights like it does the others channels.
So telling people they don't gain anything is wrong on his part, the difference is massive and the height sounds are present.
He obviously didn't test it and just assumed.
This is something Sony has been pushing in AV world with the TA-AN100 "making speakers appear from nowhere" to quote What Hi-fi.
But then I didn't really expect DF to been experts in Audio technology too.

Edit also no dynamic track is gonna be better then a pre engineered track you get in films unless it's a cutscene.
This has always been the case even with 5.1 in the early 2000's

John said Sony used the Tempest as a base to the Dolby Atmos. More like an injection to an already inbuild Tempest Engine. He made this very clear and this is probably the key to get Mark Cerny attention.

Is not an easy task to spot this on. You need to have a good pair of ears and knowledge.

 
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The headphones I bought for Xbox came with a code to redeem to enable the Atmos license. I used them without Atmos for months then found the code and redeemed it. The difference was incredible. Definitely worth ten bucks. I'd pay extra for Atmos on headphones on PS5, too.

Man, the 17 euros I spent on DA for headphones on the One X (which carried to the XSX) were the best 17 euros I ever spent 😁

I mean, sure, not every game supports it but just the fact that the DA app features various presets and a customisable equalizer was worth it for that alone since you can basically amp the audio output through the Xbox joypad...

PS5's 3D audio is no slouch either, the games I tried it with (Returnal, Demon's souls etc) sounded really nice.
The fact that it's kind of customizable is also nice but, to be able to use the equalizer...you have to buy the Pulse 3D headset, fucking/typical "good ol' Sony" and all that...

Tried DA on the PS5 and, I don't know, it sounded worse that Sony's own 3D audio solution ?
Bass was less boomy and highs were also lower for some reason.

Anyway, DA for headphones is indeed nice
 

Haint

Member
Yes and no, John made assumptions and believed the PS5's Dolby Atmos reverted back to Dolby Digital + if you didn't have the height speakers, also believing that the Object based surround was Height Speakers dependent.
This is not the case and any AV can output Object Based Surround with the minimum of two speakers, obviously the more speakers the better
But Dolby Atmos as we know it only engages when a speaker set-up that's required is detected and when its not it reverts back to DD+.
This is what John thought was happening with the PS5's Dolby Atmos.
But it doesn't, the PS5 Still outputs Dolby Atmos with Object Based Surround with 7.1 or 5.1 set-ups and phantom's the heights like it does the others channels.
So telling people they don't gain anything is wrong on his part, the difference is massive and the height sounds are present.
He obviously didn't test it and just assumed.
This is something Sony has been pushing in AV world with the TA-AN100 "making speakers appear from nowhere" to quote What Hi-fi.
But then I didn't really expect DF to been experts in Audio technology too.

Edit also no dynamic track is gonna be better then a pre engineered track you get in films unless it's a cutscene.
This has always been the case even with 5.1 in the early 2000's

It was bad advice even without Cerney's clarification as most Atmos AVR's and soundbars support Atmos Virtualization, which is a feature that uses processing trickery to simulate height effects with the regular bedlayer speakers. In other words even if it worked the way John assumed, most users would likely still prefer to set it to "Atmos" with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 setup (assuming their processor supports Atmos Virtualization).
 
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Killer8

Gold Member
The nature of Sony's solution means that the Atmos support is entirely lag-free, in contrast to some issues we've had with Xbox and Windows PCs :pie_thinking:

Yeah the Xbox implementation is unusable for me due to the half second delay. Tried all the solutions like enabling pass-through and running directly to the soundbar to no avail. It's one of those annoying issues that's been there for years, and there is a huge thread on their support site but Microsoft refuses to look into actually fixing it.
 

skit_data

Member
Seems like a good implementation and it's nice to hear there's some flexibility in how in the Tempest Engine can be used.
I usually only play using headphones but I have a nice (but pretty dated) 5.1 setup that hopefully might see some support at some point.

Edit: Since Road to PS5 I've started and almost earned my bachelors degree in audiology, so I really wonder:
An individuals head related transfer function and spectral filtering of the pinna are important stuff in order to accurately simulate spatial hearing so why won't you allow us to send you pictures of our ears like you promised, Cerny? I WANT TO SEND YOU PICTURES OF MY EARS, CERNY.
 
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