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Doctor Who 50th Anniversary |OT| Splendid Chap, All Of Them
- Thread starter infiniteloop
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APZonerunner
Member
I think we'll see a conclusion earlier than that, because the stipulation is 13 bodies - 12 regenerations. There's 1-11. Then there's Hurt. 12 bodies, 11 regenerations. Then there's the meta-crisis Doctor. 12 uses of Regeneration Energy and, technically, 12 bodies, even if one isn't the real deal. Matt could well be the last one, and I think it'll be resolved at Christmas, which is why he's playing it up - once the 50th is out of the way, the problem will be surfaced and used as a publicity tool.
Basing this off Moffat repeatedly saying we should go back and "count the number of regenerations" and the fact that one of the spoiler hounds for the Christmas Special says that
'The Tenth Doctor's vanity costs the Eleventh dearly' - and I take his vanity to mean his wanting to stay himself and doing what he did with the hand.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
The theory that the 11th has used up all his regenerations doesn't make sense to me. In The Impossible Astronaut we see him starting to regenerate after being shot the first time, and the 11th has never acted like he is finally a mortal man.
I will be disappointed if Moffat suddenly decides to go that route with no build up whatsoever.
I will be disappointed if Moffat suddenly decides to go that route with no build up whatsoever.
paradox121
Member
Huh. I kinda like that actually.
A nice conclusion to the whole Handy Doctor arc.
APZonerunner
Member
The Eleven that gets blasted on the beach is the Tesselecta; that isn't regeneration energy, just the machine simulating it to look realistic & convincing in front of the others, so that's largely irrelevant. The people he's intending to fool there wouldn't know about the Meta crisis anyway, except possibly the River on the beach with Amy & Rory, and she already knows what she needs to do.
JonathanEx
Member
Tesselecta Lightshow, no? And 11th may not have realised yet.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Nah, the theory isn't that Eleven is out of regenerations. It's that once Eleven regenerates into Twelve, Capaldi is left holding the bag, and has to figure out a way to get some more regenerations, because 10 was a vain little bastard who made a half-human copy of himself via regeneration.
Or at least, that's the theory as I've understood it.
Well, The Impossible Astronaut regeneration doesn't count because
Tesselecta
Then there's also in Let's Kill Hitler where regeneration was "disabled?" So they could probably get away with it.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I always interpreted that sequence as it being the actual 11th in The Impossible Astronaut where everything goes as planned and he gets his viking funeral. Then history changes when he and River both try to defy fate in The Wedding of River Song.
Regardless, I maintain that such a massive, series-changing plot point coming out of nowhere reeks of asspull.
I like the idea of the 12th being the last, but that's not possible if you count the metacrisis Doctor. If you count that one then he's used them all up.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
In The Angels Take Manhattan, Eleventh uses a bit of regeneration energy to heal River's hand.
APZonerunner
Member
I just don't know why Moffat would point us to "get our DVDs out" and recount regenerations if not to re-examine the effects of The Stolen Earth/Journey's End.
RE Series 6 - nah. They printed a timeline of this stuff in DWM. The Doctor NEVER goes to Lake Silencio without first meeting and hatching his plan with the Tesselecta. He makes the plan, he goes to the beach prepared, as shown in The Wedding of River Song's opening. River doesn't know this, though, and so when she forces her weapons to misfire and changes history, his plan is ruined and the situation is left wrecked, also pictured in that episode. He then puts it right, and resets things to how they were.
Long story short - if you imagine the camera had stayed focused on the Lake after Amy, Rory & River leave for the cafe, you'd eventually see the Tesselecta drag itself to shore, even before we've seen the events of 'Wedding' play out. It's like Blink.
acheron_xl
Member
And in Let's Kill Hitler, River uses all her regeneration energy to heal the Doctor. So... Who the fuck knows?
Moff never met a predestination paradox he didn't fall in love with.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
12 times.
He was very clearly joking. Even before the "or I'm lying" comment. Though I think it is also obvious that he is going to address the regen limit head on rather than ignore it.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
If this does play out like that I'm just going to shake my head. There are so many brilliant story possibilities that can be written with a Doctor who knows he's on his last life, who knows that he can now be killed just like any other man. Capaldi could have been the perfect actor to portray such a Doctor too. It's a waste.
Thought so. Maybe I'm being stupid but the Doctor hasn't actually regenerate twelve times, has he? We saw the First Doctor who then regenerated into the Second and so on. So he's regenerated eleven times so far. And the regeneration into the War Doctor doesn't count as that regeneration was bought on by the Sisterhood's potion.
APZonerunner
Member
It's worth pointing out a funny little side fact - a lot of outside-TV-universe Who things have addressed this already, and an 8th Doctor audio that has now basically been canonized by the mentions in the Night of the Doctor actually flat out says that the limit was one artificially imposed by the Time Lords themselves. They're no longer around now, so it no longer matters - there's nobody to enforce the limit, and/or whatever time vortex maguffin enforced it blew up with Gallifrey. That's how RTD once said he'd explain it away if it came to it, too.
It's likely Moffat will go for something more complex, mind.
There are other ways to do tell those stories anyway. I don't think it needs to be this one-time thing. We did it 4 years ago, in fact, really - the whole point of RTD slightly revising regeneration so that it's of course still the same man but "feels like dying" is so that if somebody chooses, they can evoke that sense of drama of a strong character approaching death. And lo, the scenes with the Tenth Doctor raging against the dying of the light are some of the best that incarnation has emotionally - and he has some bangers.
It's likely Moffat will go for something more complex, mind.
There are other ways to do tell those stories anyway. I don't think it needs to be this one-time thing. We did it 4 years ago, in fact, really - the whole point of RTD slightly revising regeneration so that it's of course still the same man but "feels like dying" is so that if somebody chooses, they can evoke that sense of drama of a strong character approaching death. And lo, the scenes with the Tenth Doctor raging against the dying of the light are some of the best that incarnation has emotionally - and he has some bangers.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I have no idea why anyone would think this. There is far more reason to discount the 2nd Doctor's regeneration if you want to pick nits like that.
Why wouldn't you think that? You see Eight drink the potion, he even asks the Sisterhood if it will hurt which could be referring to his death or to something else, maybe him knowing this is a regeneration bought on by the potion.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Because there is literally no reason to think that. Again, might as well discount the 2nd Doctor's death while you're at it.
APZonerunner
Member
"Our elixir can trigger your regeneration. Bring you back."
Think it's really just about triggering a regeneration after it usually would've already been too late. So it still uses the same energy. The sisterhood aren't Time Lords, after all, even if they're a planet allied to Gallifrey in the old show.
Hot Coldman
Banned
8 to War is a regeneration. The elixir is a trigger; it doesn't carry the means to make regeneration possible, only to cause and guide it.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
But then how do you explain the war doctor.
Doc 1-8 regenerates normally.
8 crash lands and dies dead. Sisterhood of Karn revive him long enough for him to trigger regen and allow him to manipulate it. War Doctor or not this is a regen.
War Doctor at some point regens into CE.
CE to DT
DT dies but his vanity and the presences of the hand allow him to manipulate the regen into staying DT but healing Regen Used.
DT to MS
1. William Hartnell
2. Patrick Troughton
3. John Pertwee
4. Tom Baker
5. Peter Davison
6. Colin Baker
7. Sylvester McCoy
8. Paul McGann
9. John Hurt
10. Christopher Eccleston
11. David Tennant
12. David Tennant (Meta Crisis, Vanity Edition)
13. Matt Smith
End of Cycle
14/1. Peter Capaldi
Hot Coldman
Banned
Also the Doctor's regeneration effect at Silencio is probably his conscious decision; he's the one piloting the Tesselecta, and if 11 truly is the end of line then that's a secret he's probably not ready to tell anyone, even River.
The Doctor lies, in more ways than just words.
The Doctor lies, in more ways than just words.
APZonerunner
Member
This is how I read it, and I think Capaldi being the start of a new cycle is one of the things Moffat will point to as being part of securing the next fifty years, etcetera. It closes the loop in a nice way. Fifty years, one cycle, then he gains another.
The fun irony is if you go back to the Series 4 DVDs and listen to the commentaries, RTD, Gardner and Tennant have a big debate about if this makes him both 10 and 11, and RTD basically says "that's for somebody else to sort out later on..!" How right he might have been.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I just hate this idea, and for that reason I have no doubt it will turn out to be true.
Capaldi should have been the end of the cycle. Meh.
APZonerunner
Member
It makes sense in my mind for a lot of reasons, like Capaldi being older again - the same age as Hartnell was when he took on the role, in fact. It's very neat & circular.
Might be wrong, though. But Moffat's go back and watch your DVDs comment must have a proper reasoning.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I get the feeling that Moffat just wants to make sure that the end of the cycle goes down on his watch. It's not the Tenth's vanity, it's Moffat's.
APZonerunner
Member
Hahaha. That I will not disagree with. I think RTD just did whatever he thought was good, lore be damned (like inserting the drums into the Master's head etc), but Moffat is a very different type of fan. Where RTD probably would've just pissed on the regen rule with a throwaway line, the type of fan Moffat is (a more pedantic one, to put it bluntly) means he cannot, he has to tackle it and explain it. I think that's the same thing that drew him to the Time War; it's a gap in the continuity and he wants to fill it, even if the danger is that showing it will remove the lustre. If we get Gatiss to ascend the throne in a few years we'll probably complete the trinity - the reckless innovation of RTD, the attention to canon and detail of Moffat and as by-the-numbers Doctor Who as humanly possible.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Hate it or not it's logical. McGann to Hurt is a regen. I don't think that is even debateable. We see the energy. The only 2 slightly confusing things about it are he is brough back from a True Death and using the sisterhoods abilities he can control it.
10 clearly takes a direct shot from the dalek weapon, this out right disintergrates people it's likely only because he is a time lord he managed to remain intact. At this point he is dying, he needs to regen. Because the hand is around he can control his regen. He uses the healing powers of the regen that normal happens but forces his appearance and DNA and by extension his personality to stay the same by using the hand as a template of sorts giving the random regen a direction to mold him into.
That is without question 2 regen's
Hot Coldman
Banned
JonathanEx
Member
With the scale of the 50th and the scale of the regeneration rumours, where it goes from here is difficult to top for Capaldi without getting ridiculous.
So we just need to go and have silly adventures in time and space too
So we just need to go and have silly adventures in time and space too
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't know if you can count Hartnell as a regeneration, can you? That's the first incarnation. Hartnell didn't regenerate into existence. He's the starting point. You don't start counting from 1, you start from zero. The first regeneration is Hartnell to Troughton. So:
Hartnell to Troughton
Troughton to Pertwee
Pertwee to Baker
Baker to Davison
Davison to Baker
Baker to McCoy
McCoy to McGann
McGann to Hurt
Hurt to Eccleston
Eccleston to Tennant
Tennant to Tennant
Tennant to Smith
Smith to Capaldi
Thirteen regenerations. Capaldi is the end of the Cycle, and will likely spend part of his series trying to figure out how to regenerate one more time, if not 13 more times.
APZonerunner
Member
To be fair, it's the story of a lifetime to tackle.
To be honest, I prefer the old explanation RTD threw out in DVD commentaries to all of this - one Big Finish adopted & used in 8th Doctor stories. The limit was applied by the Time Lords to prevent immortality, as immortality led to immorality and evil. That's also why they use taking a regeneration as a form of punishment - it's like how jailing somebody for a decade takes a significant chunk of their life away.
In the war they got a bit more dicey with the rules - they granted additional cycles/revivals to The Master and Rassilon both (and probably others) as they figured they'd be valuable war assets. But with the Time Lords & Gallifrey gone, whatever held the rule in place is also gone.
I thought that explanation was bloody perfect, and simple, as it's such a non-issue. But the 13 Doctors thing has taken on a life of its own and such a simple explanation is now no longer acceptable, sadly.
The law as stated in old Who is 12 regenerations. Thus 13 bodies counting your original. People say 13 because that's the number of bodies you can get. 12 was picked because it's the number of numerals on a clock, for the record. As another tidbit, in one old Who episode we learn that a Time Lord can essentially commit suicide by 'activating' regeneration when they have no more remaining; it kills them. This links in to other stuff, as well - if the Eleventh isn't aware of his situation in Let's Kill Hitler, he's lucky regeneration was disabled, as if it hadn't been and he'd tried if would've killed him anyway.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
12 regen's 13 lives
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Shit. Can't believe I brainfarted that.
Sorry all. My bad.
(kinda embarrassed)
So, is it possible that Smith's final act in the Christmas Special is him finagling 1 (or 12) more regenerations for Capaldi? That could provide a pretty good ticking clock mechanism to up the tension for that special.
He only has twelve.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
So I'm just into series 7 now, but who is Hurt? Or is that a big secret for the 50th? It's clear he's a Doctor, and rumors pin him as the Doctor during the time war, so I assume we will find out about him in the special?
I don't see Capaldi being the end of the series though, so he'll find a way to get more regens.
I don't see Capaldi being the end of the series though, so he'll find a way to get more regens.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
The Christmas Special has already been spoiled. If you really want to know,
it takes place on Trenzalore and we see the final battle that finishes him off. The grave? It's for Matt. That's the Fall of the Eleventh, the end of the line, and this may explain why there are no future Doctors in his timestream. Obviously, for Capaldi to exist, something has to change to give the Doctor a new set of regenerations. Supposedly the regeneration from Smith to Capaldi is huge, Tennant's has been described as a whisper in comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3jrS-uhuo
You find out at the end of the series you're watching which leads into the special.
I know. I brainfarted. It's the post right above yours where I apologize for it.
Isn't it weird that we feel like apologizing for minor mistakes on message boards? I bet the Doctor would understand, except Nine because he was kind of a dick. (Also I really thought 12 regens meant 12 lives for some reason)
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Ah, hmm, I'll watch that this weekend.
Thanks. I'll have to get the series finished this week and catch up on all the news.
Bad thing is I'll be at the parents' for Xmas and won't have BBC America access for the special. Hope it's replayed sometime...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I try to apologize for most of my fuckups. I used to not do that, and it made me feel shitty
I'm basically the exact same person online as I am off, so if I was talking to somebody and I fucked up a fact, I'd immediately be like "Oh, damn, sorry, I was full of shit there, wasn't I."
Sir_Crocodile
Member
APZonerunner
Member
Only unspoiler if you've seen S7 to the end
He's the Doctor that sits in the time the show was off-air, between 8 and 9, that fought the Time War. If you've not seen it, the BBC released a prequel to the 50th which shows the end of 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3jrS-uhuo
paradox121
Member
You know what, I keep forgetting a full 13 ep series is around the (nine month) corner after Christmas. And now I'm super excited. There's something about the first series of any Doctor which has a more...reckless, exciting feel to it purely because you're still not sure what this incarnation is like.
Bums me out we won't get a trailer after the Christmas ep.
I try to apologize for most of my fuckups. I used to not do that, and it made me feel shitty
I'm basically the exact same person online as I am off, so if I was talking to somebody and I fucked up a fact, I'd immediately be like "Oh, damn, sorry, I was full of shit there, wasn't I."
It's a pretty good habit all things considered, keep it up!
Oh shit now that's twisted!
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Here is something.
Why does Matt Smith get a grave. The Tardis at trenzalore is really plot holey. At first I was think ohh it's the FINAL resting place of the doctor but then it's smiths tardis interior and river song has a grave their so it's specifically revolving around smith.
Also, If that is only smiths grave then why is the tardis present. Does capaldi onwards not get a tardis.
Why is a life stream just available to walk into if it's only a portion of his life. He says the can't bury a time lord body so his essence replaces it. Wouldn't capaldi kind of want that?
Why does Matt Smith get a grave. The Tardis at trenzalore is really plot holey. At first I was think ohh it's the FINAL resting place of the doctor but then it's smiths tardis interior and river song has a grave their so it's specifically revolving around smith.
Also, If that is only smiths grave then why is the tardis present. Does capaldi onwards not get a tardis.
Why is a life stream just available to walk into if it's only a portion of his life. He says the can't bury a time lord body so his essence replaces it. Wouldn't capaldi kind of want that?
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