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Doctor Who Series 2011 |OT| Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Stuff
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Captain_Spanky
Member
maharg said:
I don't really see how I did that, so please elaborate.
This episode made me sad, man. Not even because of the
I absolutely hated Gibbis, and just wanted to punch the coward in the face.
So what did the Doctor mean when he said
I didn't watch it in the best condition, granted, so I'll be watching it again.
Ponds (er, Williams now, I suppose) leaving.
So what did the Doctor mean when he said
"It's time we saw each other for who we really are...Amy Williams. It's time to stop waiting."? Does it mean that Amy should stop waiting because Rory's there, hence "Amy Williams"?
IdreamofHIME
Member
Galvanise_ said:
John Barrowman on every channel talking about how awesome he is.....
...oh wait, that happened this week >,<
Loved the episode.
The past few episodes of this season I'd been getting slightly annoyed at how whimsical and unaffected the Doctor seemed. I'm very happy they're making him realize he can't be a god or a mad man if he wants to keep people from dying around him. It's sad, but feels right.
I can't believe Amy and Rory aren't featured any more. It was a great send-off, but I do think it's weird that they don't care about River that much. They're fine just accepting that their daughter was taken away from them and there's no way they'll ever get to watch her grow? Shit's messed up.
The past few episodes of this season I'd been getting slightly annoyed at how whimsical and unaffected the Doctor seemed. I'm very happy they're making him realize he can't be a god or a mad man if he wants to keep people from dying around him. It's sad, but feels right.
I can't believe Amy and Rory aren't featured any more. It was a great send-off, but I do think it's weird that they don't care about River that much. They're fine just accepting that their daughter was taken away from them and there's no way they'll ever get to watch her grow? Shit's messed up.
onlyindreams
Banned
They did get to watch her grow, as Melbig ander said:
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
MDavis360 said:
Well, for starters, RTD actually wrote quality human drama. Under Moffat, we have companions lose their baby and witness her turned into a brainwashed assassin, and then just keep going on like nothing has happened. It's pretty clear that Moffat isn't interested in genuine human emotion or building up stories around characters.
Moffat's writing also tends to be a lot more lightweight than RTD's. His focus is squarely on scary monsters and 'things under a kid's bed', while RTD would build up cultures and examine human nature and fill his work's with social commentary.
Moffat isn't a terrible writer, but he was much better when he was only writing one or two episodes per season. He's kind of been exposed as a one trick pony over the past couple of years.
onlyindreams
Banned
I would hate to live in the alternate universe where this post speaks truth.KuwabaraTheMan said:
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Man, great great episode. Real great season is hitting it's home stretch, love it.
SpeedingUptoStop said:
This season just isn't doing it for me. I feel spoiled after having so many great seasons with RTD =(
And no I'm not trolling, I'm just tired of Amy and her story. I hope they take 11 into new territory next season and really mix it up, we need something fresh. (Or something old returning, which would be fresh)
Ventilaator
Banned
MDavis360 said:
I am almost ready to stop watching Doctor Who after the complete and utter mess that Moffat shat on the screen and called a story. Before Matt Smith I was ready to stop paying attention to anything else that happens around me just so I could watch the new episode.
Watching Let's Kill Hitler was the worst hour I've spent doing anything in my life.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
MDavis360 said:
Midnight is as good as any of Moffat's episodes. RTD didn't always do as well as Moffat, but that's not because he was incapable.
Ventilaator
Banned
KuwabaraTheMan said:
This is the truth. Everyone loved Blink. Monsters who attack as you turn your back? Awesome.
So Moffat writes more episodes and tells us that the darkness is scary because there are monsters there. Then he gets to be showrunner and shows us a monster who you can only see from the corner of your eye and a monster who you forget about after seeing it.
Kind of cut from the same cloth, I think.
It's seems to me that RTD wrote stories. They may have been good stories, bad stories or mediocre ones, but he had an idea for a story and he wrote it.
But Moffat seems to get one single cool idea in his head which he then desperately tries to write a story around.
I'm of course talking about the RTD who wrote Doctor Who. Miracle Day is the exact opposite of what I just said about him.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
Ventilaator said:
Bad Wolf says hello.
Spotless Mind
Member
Replace Moffat with RTD in this sentence and i'll agree with you.Ventilaator said:
It's ridiculous to say that Moffat doesn't write stories and RTD does. Moffat's episodes and seasons all have proper beginnings, middles, and ends. His characters undergo growth and have development arcs of their own, both in terms of their own independent evolution and in their interactions with others. If you want to compare them on this level, I don't even know what to say. With RTD stories you're usually lucky to have a beginning. God help you if you want an ending. And the middle is usually such a random mismash who the hell knows what's going on.
I can't say I've ever gotten the whole RTD writes better characters argument -- I find his characters flat and stereotypical -- but at least I can see that as a matter of taste, or perhaps a relateability factor that some people (who aren't me) just get. So when people say that, I just let it slide, even though even Moffat's secondary characters are always deeply intriguing to me.
But to say that RTD wrote stories and Moffat doesn't? I just don't even know what to do with that.
I can't say I've ever gotten the whole RTD writes better characters argument -- I find his characters flat and stereotypical -- but at least I can see that as a matter of taste, or perhaps a relateability factor that some people (who aren't me) just get. So when people say that, I just let it slide, even though even Moffat's secondary characters are always deeply intriguing to me.
But to say that RTD wrote stories and Moffat doesn't? I just don't even know what to do with that.
Ventilaator
Banned
maharg said:
River Song. The Doctor meeting someone who knows everything abot him, but he is seeing her for the first time? That idea in itself is excellent, but where did that go? The character lingered around for a season and a half without ever having anything significant to do with anything, until we got a half-assed explanation of her identity that didn't change anything.
The Pandorica being a prison for the Doctor is also a great core idea, but that culminated in the gang running away from a Dalek for an hour until everything timeywimeyd back to normal.
Stay tuned for the Silence and the Doctor getting killed on the beach, I guess.
RTD often had horrible climaxes, that's a fact. Jesus-Doctor from the Master episode is still funny to think about. But at least that story introduced the Master in a cool way, had everything go to hell due to his evilness and then he was defeated.
Moffat gets the first part perfectly right, then he wonders for a year what to do with the rest of it.
So let's go with your premise that River hasn't been poorly used in the last season and a half (for argument's sake, because I disagree with you wholeheartedly).
Why does RTD get a pass for introducing the Master well and then turning it into hamfisted bullshit, but Moffat doesn't for River's amazing and mysterious introduction?
Also, as Exhibit B, how about the Master's reappearance by witch voodoo, with the Doctor running around a junkyard for an hour with a break for tea with Wilf in the middle to get him and his pack of old people off his tail while the Master lept tall buildings and shot force lightning from his hands? Was there even a good beginning there? I wish I was making all that up. Talk about attempting to build a story around an idea and failing miserably.
Why does RTD get a pass for introducing the Master well and then turning it into hamfisted bullshit, but Moffat doesn't for River's amazing and mysterious introduction?
Also, as Exhibit B, how about the Master's reappearance by witch voodoo, with the Doctor running around a junkyard for an hour with a break for tea with Wilf in the middle to get him and his pack of old people off his tail while the Master lept tall buildings and shot force lightning from his hands? Was there even a good beginning there? I wish I was making all that up. Talk about attempting to build a story around an idea and failing miserably.
Ventilaator
Banned
maharg said:
RTD gets a pass for introducing the Master well and then turning it into garbage because that happened in the space of three episodes. Give the same story to Moffat and getting to the shitty conclusion takes 2 years.
And I can't argue point B. There are always exceptions, and the Master's return was laughable. The only way I could defend it would be saying that RTD didn't want Master in the story at all and it was forced on him.
bobs...onGaf
Member
onlyindreams said:
Did I read that right?
"Put dedication into a tv show"
If you switched tv show with something like learning then I could understand, but Dr Who even at the moment isnt some amazingly difficult show to grasp. Its really just mindless entertainment, and the last 2 episodes have concluded with pretty intangible endings. Theres nothing clever to it at all.
I liked the endings, and I think it was quite well done, but I want to see just a single episode where the Dr thinks outside the box and literally breaks the 4th wall by doing something the audience didn't think of, but with enough time could have. If that makes sense? Rather than the intangible solutions the show comes up to at the moment.
I really hope the Dr deals with his death in a clever way, and we dont get some weird timey wimey stuff to conclude the season. Because I am sick of timey wimey. The problem with Dr Who is its too easy for them to build up any difficult situation knowing that they can simply get out of it by using magic tricks.
infiniteloop
Member
Christmas ep filming spoilers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/challengewales/6158702948/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/challengewales/6158702948/in/photostream/
The Doctor at Amy and Rory's house
mightynine
Member
I'm beginning to hate how this thread just degenerates after every new episode into a RTD/Moffat argument that goes round and round, never-ending, the same points brought up again.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Someone with more time than me needs to make a list of all the outstanding plot points that need resolving. There is a bucketload, off the top of my head.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Really liked the episode. The hotell and the weirdness of it gave me a bit of oldWho vibe for some reason. Also the bit about the companions faith in the doctor has been done before in Curse of the Fenric, where the doctor had to destroy Aces faith in him because it was somehow stopping the Haemovores from killing the bad guy
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
From what I've seen, it's just flat out factually wrong to say Moffat has ever written anything as lame and nonsensical and trying to be cool as The Master or Bad Wolf or really most things RTD tries to end a season on (look at how poorly this season of Torchwood ended up if you're wondering if his inability to write a season long arc is a fluke or my imagination). The guy is just bad at long term stuff, which kind of makes it unsurprising somebody would say "well, thank god he got something liek that out of the way in 3 episodes". And hell, even short term stuff he's just bad at a good 50% or so of the time too. When RTD was running things, his episodes hardly ever were the most memorable or the best, the guy can't keep his deus ex machinas or boring mob monster villains in check by himself - I dunno how anybody can argue that Moffat's episodes during his run aren't regularly the best and varied and trying significantly harder to juggle more complex and tangible threads . I dunno, maybe if you wanted to say Moffat is schmaltzier than the more action oriented RTD, I'd guess I'd understand, but in terms of narrative wrap up and throwing things out there, I can't think of a single RTD conclusion to a long term plot that didn't have me rolling my eyes at how impossible he made things before having Act of God type scenario step in and save The Doctor. Moffat may always have The Doctor think his way out of shit (aside from episodes where River saves him via regeneration or Amy saves the beast or whatever we're jsut not gonna mention for the sake of arguing this point), but I kind of feel like that's what he's supposed to do more than just letting the omnipresent writer do it for him.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'll agree with this, Moffat has seemed like a bit of a trick-and-a-half pony with his standalones.Ventilaator said:
But not really with this. Neither of them are great at story arcs but I'd say Moffat is still better. I just tend to like RTD's standalone "conceptual" episodes more then Moffat's "lets try to vaguely mindfuck the audience" episodes. Blink was incredible, but I don't feel he's done anything to quite come close to that (although The Impossible Astronaut was damn close)
wind_steaker
Member
I really enjoyed this episode, and the ending came as a surprise - I'm really happy he's not left Amy in the same messed up state as his last few companions, and looking back at it this whole half season has been leading up to this since the doctor felt guilty over Rose etc. in Let's Kill Hitler.
The Moff/RTD argument comes up a lot and feels quite off topic to me really, perhaps we could make a separate thread so that we can discuss the ongoing season in this one?
The Moff/RTD argument comes up a lot and feels quite off topic to me really, perhaps we could make a separate thread so that we can discuss the ongoing season in this one?
Exterminieren
Banned
God, by and large, the individual episodes this series have been SO good, but the arc plot hasn't really hung together at all. Glad to hear Moffat's throwing it in the opposite direction next year.
lunarworks
Member
The Doctor was behind The Doctor's door. I'm certain of it. Who else does he have to fear but himself? He's always reeling with regret of things he has done to people.Galvanise_ said:
Also, keep in mind that door had the number "11".
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
lunarworks said:
Yep, exactly what I was thinking. When The Doctor said "Of course. Who else would it be?" I knew it was himself. It goes back to "Amy's Choice" in a way, when he said "There's only one person who hates me that much". And he obviously meant himself there, too.
lunarworks said:
Mof will probably play it out later in the season or next season. We've had little in the way of "Silence will fall" etc. this season. The cloister bells going off are probably a hint at silence falling or the master returning or something similarly silly.
Ventilaator
Banned
I would love it if the Doctor's room contained the astronaut, but how would he know to be afraid of it?
It was about both really. The fear was there to bring out the faith.
Snufkin said:
It was about both really. The fear was there to bring out the faith.
lunarworks
Member
Yep, but the fear was the catalyst to trigger the faith.Snufkin said:
Ventilaator
Banned
M.Bluth said:
I will forever love that episode for the "I never would"
Ventilaator said:
And now I will forever ruin that speech for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74 (NSFW language)
That last episode made me cry. The ending was too much for me, and rewatching it on confidential didn't make it better. I've loved the characters of Amy and Rory, and it's going to be fascinating where it goes next season with new companions.
I went into the episode completely unspoiled, and glad I did.
Not feeling next week's from the trailer, but did like The Lodger.
I did think for a moment that Rita could have made a wonderful Doctor Who/Casualty cross over, or at least a mention of Holby city hospital would have been awesome.
I'd never even heard of David Walliams and had to look him up on Wikipedia.
Edit: Ah I keep missing the Cloister Bell, when the doctor opened his room, still doesn't help me guess what was in there.
I went into the episode completely unspoiled, and glad I did.
Not feeling next week's from the trailer, but did like The Lodger.
I did think for a moment that Rita could have made a wonderful Doctor Who/Casualty cross over, or at least a mention of Holby city hospital would have been awesome.
I'd never even heard of David Walliams and had to look him up on Wikipedia.
Edit: Ah I keep missing the Cloister Bell, when the doctor opened his room, still doesn't help me guess what was in there.
I guess Karen Gillan confirming that she's coming back in series 7 is a spoiler. Unless I heard it wrong.
Spoiler tagged just in case, I guess. lol
And I'll quote myself just to get an opinion, since the discussion went away from the episode itself and into an RTD vs. Moffat debate.
Quick said:
forgeforsaken
Member
andylsun said:
I think it would be the death of the Tardis. The Doctor would certainly refer to the Tardis as "you" as well.
lunarworks said:
the doctor's eye when camera zooms in, you can see a "spread out image"
not gonna post the picture in tags because i cant spoiler it properly.
http://i.imgur.com/UPFWB.png
This season hasn't been very cohesive... Moffat drags too many questions along with him that I'm sure we won't see answered until one last measly episode. I was hoping for a double parter, instead we get a double for the silence that went no where and the weird clone thing.
This last episode was great. Who thinks that the sad clown was the doctors door? With no one else that it could be, it seems like they certainly went people to consider the possibility.
It won't happen, but I'd be so happy if Amy got herself kidnapped for a season and it was just Rory with the doctor. Their exchanges have been the best pieces of writing in the show, particularly this season.
Edit: Nevermind on the clown theory, I forgot the bell sound too.
This last episode was great. Who thinks that the sad clown was the doctors door? With no one else that it could be, it seems like they certainly went people to consider the possibility.
It won't happen, but I'd be so happy if Amy got herself kidnapped for a season and it was just Rory with the doctor. Their exchanges have been the best pieces of writing in the show, particularly this season.
Edit: Nevermind on the clown theory, I forgot the bell sound too.
GillianSeed79
Member
Amateur Who fan here, so I apologize outright. I actually didn't like Moffat and Adam Smith at first, but I've been fixated on these past few seasons. The last two episodes have been great IMO, because they've explored the, if you really think about it, how much of a selfish, vain, prick the Doctor can be. That whole Girl Who Waited was great because even though there were two Amy's, Amy actually suffered in one time line. The whole end of the last episode where Smith is saying I'm really just a man in a box, I'm not a hero and you'll be a lifeless corpse if you still hang around with me was great. It made me feel sad though. I know what happens to companions in Dr. Who, but Smith's character was just laying it out there. If it was RTD, there'd be some sweeping melodramatic music telling Amy and Rory they were fantastic before some Deus Ex Machina at the end of the season. The last two episodes have made me think why do I actually like this guy. Is he a hero or villian.
The only problem I have with Moffat is he's creating Kojima/Lost levels of loose ends. There's no room for self-contained stories now. The River stuff has vanished. How many episodes are left in this season btw? Also, you can't keep Amy and Rory as main characters for so long, build a giant ass story focused on them and then just dump them at the end of the last episode. If they don't come back the season has been a waste.
The only problem I have with Moffat is he's creating Kojima/Lost levels of loose ends. There's no room for self-contained stories now. The River stuff has vanished. How many episodes are left in this season btw? Also, you can't keep Amy and Rory as main characters for so long, build a giant ass story focused on them and then just dump them at the end of the last episode. If they don't come back the season has been a waste.
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