Oh right, I guess it's true that things would have been fine if he had immediately gone to the Ood. I wasn't really a fan of the "Events that have happened are happening now." thing to be honest. That scene's great tho.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Oh right, I guess it's true that things would have been fine if he had immediately gone to the Ood. I wasn't really a fan of the "Events that have happened are happening now." thing to be honest. That scene's great tho.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
The terrible secret was the place of his death. Once you find out the location of the tomb you can wreck his timeline because inside his tomb was the time stream of his life and with that thousands of galaxy changing events changed for the better.
His name was only important because it opened the Tardis doors so again it was equally as valuable.
The Doctors crime is worse than the emperors. As far as I know Time Lords protected the entire universe. He might of directly killed/trapped billions but he indirectly damaged a uncountable amount of lives and we know other civilizations got damaged directly by the war it has been mentioned multiple times.
Sarah Jane if you count it as canon (which it is because it directly crossed over with DW) had an episode in which the doctor said he had 507 regenerations. 13 was a number imposed by the time lord council. Likely to limit individual effects on timelines, see the current episode for a potential worse case scenario or for population control. In the Five doctors The Master is offered a new regeneration cycle by the time lords in exchange for his help and Simm Master mentioned that the Time Lords brought him back to fight in the Time War.
frankie_baby
Member
13 but it seems its more a rule than a fact
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Alright. It was good. It wasn't great.
Things I liked:
- The solution to Clara's mystery was about what I expected, but I was fine with that.
-Vrastra, Jenny and Strax are two for two now in actually being interesting finally.
-The Great Intelligence is a good villain for this kind of thing, I far prefer it was him instead of like, the Daleks or something
-The actual plot overall was pretty damn entertaining, although also being pretty content light. (but there are several nitpicks)
-The John Hurt Doctor at the end was very very interesting, and based on the rumors I've read his story could actually be the kind of thing I love
Things I didn't like:
-Death of anyone who isn't the Doctor apparently isn't acceptable. Jenny's death can't be meaningful, she has to come back. Clara's sacrifice can't be meaningful, she has to be saved. And the resolution to this always sucks and always feels pulled out of their ass.
-I can't blame the episode itself for this, because in a vacuum its fine on this front, but I feel like the theme of the Doctor's mortality was dragged down somewhat by the fact that just last series we had the exact same theme and it didn't work out at all and is one of my worst memories of the revival.
Things I hated:
-"Spoilers!"
Things I liked:
- The solution to Clara's mystery was about what I expected, but I was fine with that.
-Vrastra, Jenny and Strax are two for two now in actually being interesting finally.
-The Great Intelligence is a good villain for this kind of thing, I far prefer it was him instead of like, the Daleks or something
-The actual plot overall was pretty damn entertaining, although also being pretty content light. (but there are several nitpicks)
-The John Hurt Doctor at the end was very very interesting, and based on the rumors I've read his story could actually be the kind of thing I love
Things I didn't like:
-Death of anyone who isn't the Doctor apparently isn't acceptable. Jenny's death can't be meaningful, she has to come back. Clara's sacrifice can't be meaningful, she has to be saved. And the resolution to this always sucks and always feels pulled out of their ass.
-I can't blame the episode itself for this, because in a vacuum its fine on this front, but I feel like the theme of the Doctor's mortality was dragged down somewhat by the fact that just last series we had the exact same theme and it didn't work out at all and is one of my worst memories of the revival.
Things I hated:
-"Spoilers!"
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I don't understand why he'd be so upset over it. Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter.
I would say the Silence were specifically trying to stop the release of the Hurt Doctor... Though we don't know that for sure. Answering the question opens the tomb, which has a link to the timestream where the Hurt Doctor is waiting.
I like how it also had a good plot with a bad guy with a big, ambitious plan. And some great concepts in the tomb itself, the body turning into a gateway into the traveller's timestream, etc. And a wonderful interaction with Hartnell that was brilliantly done!
Plus I think the Hurt Doctor *does* consider himself a proper Doctor. From his 'what I did I did in the name of peace and sanity' line. And then the 11th/whatever Doctor saying 'but not in the name of the Doctor' - I expect he's truly pissed off because of later regenerations taking away his right to that label and sealing him away.
EDIT: the BBC have put a link straight to the final moments, if you want to see just the reveal again:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p019731j
I like how it also had a good plot with a bad guy with a big, ambitious plan. And some great concepts in the tomb itself, the body turning into a gateway into the traveller's timestream, etc. And a wonderful interaction with Hartnell that was brilliantly done!
Plus I think the Hurt Doctor *does* consider himself a proper Doctor. From his 'what I did I did in the name of peace and sanity' line. And then the 11th/whatever Doctor saying 'but not in the name of the Doctor' - I expect he's truly pissed off because of later regenerations taking away his right to that label and sealing him away.
EDIT: the BBC have put a link straight to the final moments, if you want to see just the reveal again:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p019731j
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Personally those scenes looked horrible to me. Star Trek did it much better in 1996 with footage from the same era.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Some of the spliced footage was good, some of it was horrible. The stuff with Hartnell was fine, but like any time it involved people outside you could tell she was edited in.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm wondering if trying to do that same feat in HD made it harder. Working with old videotape as opposed to 35mm film couldn't have been easy. It's also possible they didn't have the money to really nail it.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I think HD might have been a factor but Ultimately I just think it was either the Budget or The SFX studio. If they are still using the studio from when the show started (The Mill) then those guess have produced some pretty whacky looking stuff. Like poor mans CGI at some times.
12 Regenerations and 13 Doctors, if Hurt is his proper 9th then Matt his the 12th. So he has one left supposedly and at some point either before, after or while it is happening the Valeyard will be created.
Indeed, but RTD also said it was a trow away line and not really serious and that the whole 13 Doctors thing is far too ingrained in fans to not be addressed properly at some point.
I imagine budget had something to do with it, they don't seem to get a lot out of their effects budget sometimes, let alone having to do these extra sorts of scenes on top, and US shows generally get much more to work with. But yea, the footage wasn't great, from memory I think it has been said that there is no original copies of any of the first few series of DW, everything is copies from other sources.
frankie_baby
Member
There was a much bigger gap in quality between the two eras footage here though
If this is the case, then its a fucking good idea.
Haven't really liked Series 7 at all, or at least post-Amy 7. But this episode was really good, John Hurt is an amazing actor, Matt Smith continues to impress me, and if the above mooted theory is what has happened, then I'm all for it.
The doctor specifically states that John Hurts doctor is his secret, and presumably the secrecy surrounding his name is secondary to that. What the doctor did in the time war is documented against his real name in the "History of the Time War" that Clara reads, so I guess it's not something the doctor persona did in his own eyes.
The doctor himself is not involved in any secrecy surrounding his grave as he didn't know where it was, he only heard about it second hand and knew if it was his grave he shouldn't go there. The great intelligence doesn't seem to imply there was any secret surrounding the last battle that killed the doctor.
APZonerunner
Member
Hurt's Doctor being linked to the Time War really makes sense as it really is the single most significant event in the history of the show, lore-wise. It's even retconned back into old Who stories, after all.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
The spliced footage looks much better in SD but still I feel they could have made the scenes with Clara a look a bit more aged so they gel better.
Matt Smith was fucking amazing in this episode. It's took me a while but I've fully warmed to him now as the doctor. I might go back and watch the older stuff to see if I still dislike him as much in them.
Matt Smith was fucking amazing in this episode. It's took me a while but I've fully warmed to him now as the doctor. I might go back and watch the older stuff to see if I still dislike him as much in them.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I liked it, Can't really explain it just felt like a fantastic setup for the 50th
The episode was consistent with the series so far, meaning that it was mostly bad mixed with some good.
Casual deaths, space-time séance, uninteresting/random/boring foe (yes it's the great intelligence, but I'm not really sure who or what it's supposed to be. It had a weak introduction, so it's not a grave threat to me.) and awful green screen moments of Clara.
The positives were that I guess we know why she's supposed to be impossible, although she didn't stay in his time stream. And I'm hoping that the new Doctor will have a slightly darker edge. Hopefully. But if he's not doing it under the "doctor" then why is he the doctor? (Rhetorical, no need to answer.)
Casual deaths, space-time séance, uninteresting/random/boring foe (yes it's the great intelligence, but I'm not really sure who or what it's supposed to be. It had a weak introduction, so it's not a grave threat to me.) and awful green screen moments of Clara.
The positives were that I guess we know why she's supposed to be impossible, although she didn't stay in his time stream. And I'm hoping that the new Doctor will have a slightly darker edge. Hopefully. But if he's not doing it under the "doctor" then why is he the doctor? (Rhetorical, no need to answer.)
frankie_baby
Member
Absolutely loved the episode, fantastic ending can't wait til November
Episode made me damn excited about the rest of the year, and the Clara reveal was pretty good too.
Like his other finales though, I thought it felt a bit rushed and all over the place, especially at the beginning. Two-parter with more exposition and use for the Whispermen and the GI might've been good? Still not sold on Jenny/Strax/Vastra either- I didnt feel the stakes were raised that high in them being threatened?
LOVED the ending though, and all the callbacks. Good stuff.
Like his other finales though, I thought it felt a bit rushed and all over the place, especially at the beginning. Two-parter with more exposition and use for the Whispermen and the GI might've been good? Still not sold on Jenny/Strax/Vastra either- I didnt feel the stakes were raised that high in them being threatened?
LOVED the ending though, and all the callbacks. Good stuff.
APZonerunner
Member
I hope we're back to two-parters next year.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I don't think I've ever seen the proper TARDIS exterior before. It was a little... underwhelming.
Exterminieren
Banned
Matt Smith was STUNNING in this episode. Some of his best work.
Eteric Rice
Member
Hot Coldman
Banned
I thought the mind-meld-dream-thing was pretty great, although "time travel has always been possible in dreams!" sure was an ass-pull.
What's this Beast reference people mentioned?
What's this Beast reference people mentioned?
It's this season that i've realised that.
I know the Akhaten speech didnt sit well with some here but I think he's done some really good work this year, both in part A and part B. Tonight particularly.
frankie_baby
Member
Pfft!! Don't you know that will have looked amazing for 1963
Interesting/deliberate that the text 'Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor' contradicts the Doctor's stated put-down that he isn't a Doctor as he didn't act in the name of the Doctor?
I imagine they'll be some sort of reconciliation and the 10th and 11th will accept he's one of them. Like, it's a hypocritical, easy way out to say he can't have the Doctor's name and the Doctor will acknowledge they're all basically the same person.
I imagine they'll be some sort of reconciliation and the 10th and 11th will accept he's one of them. Like, it's a hypocritical, easy way out to say he can't have the Doctor's name and the Doctor will acknowledge they're all basically the same person.
Hot Coldman
Banned
My favourite Matt Smith moment this series was Mr Clever. Man he played that well.
His look of disgust and regret tonight when talking to The Non-Doctor was preeeeetty good, though.
His look of disgust and regret tonight when talking to The Non-Doctor was preeeeetty good, though.
steven moffat said that, that idea was silly though, so in his (moffats) world there can be more than 13
Wow! I thought that was fucking fantastic and easily the best ep since The Doctor's Wife. The visiting past Doctors bit was done kinda shitty and we didn't even really see Clara interact with any of them besides the First, but putting that and the hokey "INTRODUCING JOHN HURT" aside, I really loved this one. It was also the first time in a long time I've enjoyed seeing River, so that's a big up.
I've been mixed to negative on the last two years of the show so I was pleasantly surprised with how much I liked this finale.
November is a long wait.
I've been mixed to negative on the last two years of the show so I was pleasantly surprised with how much I liked this finale.
November is a long wait.
Hot Coldman
Banned
RTD reckons so too, he said as much in The Death of the Doctor.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Silly or not I think it would be a missed opportunity if it was completely ignored.
APZonerunner
Member
More important than that throwaway line is the bonafide confirmation that the Time Lords could give out new regeneration cycles in series 3; based on that, you can easily extrapolate that with them gone there is no limit, potentially. Plus Rassilon, who was supposedly dead, being in The End of Time - again, presumably the Time Lords bringing back their 'greatest' to fight the war.
Hot Coldman
Banned
It doesn't really hold up to logic anyway. Even if there was a natural limit, why 13? Surely it'd be a variable limit dependent on the individual strength of each Time Lord or Lady? I always thought it was pretty dumb.
APZonerunner
Member
Well, then you have the (vaguely sexist) scene where the Doctor is impatiently waiting for Romana to decide what 'to wear' where she regenerates on the spot 6-7 times before she settles on the form she wants to have. It's also the only example of us seeing a human-looking Time Lord regenerate into an alien form!
Hot Coldman
Banned
Let's pretend that didn't happen.
APZonerunner
Member
Hot Coldman
Banned
Who called for a threadshitter? Anyone?
Little Old Man
Member
Fantastic episode. Yeah a two parter would have allowed for a wider scope, particularly into the final battle, River Song, etc, but I feel it worked very well for a single episode series finale.
Smith was on top form (never doubted him, he has generally been given very little to work with all series long though, so it was very nice to see his quality shine through).
So it looks like the 50th is going to involve this incarnation of the Doctor (and according to the Great Intelligence one of many) who makes immoral choices, at least from the perspective of the Doctor to date.
Question though: why was the River from the tenth doctors perspective (i.e. digital memory) and not the one from series 5/6? Did I miss something?
The introduction of John Hurt reminded me of this:
Also the meeting within a dream reminded me of the Wheel of Time series oddly enough.
Smith was on top form (never doubted him, he has generally been given very little to work with all series long though, so it was very nice to see his quality shine through).
So it looks like the 50th is going to involve this incarnation of the Doctor (and according to the Great Intelligence one of many) who makes immoral choices, at least from the perspective of the Doctor to date.
Question though: why was the River from the tenth doctors perspective (i.e. digital memory) and not the one from series 5/6? Did I miss something?
The introduction of John Hurt reminded me of this:
Also the meeting within a dream reminded me of the Wheel of Time series oddly enough.
They also brought The Master back to fight in the Time War didn't they?
Regenerations seem to very much to be controlled by Time Lords, the 12 that The Doctor has is just some sort of default amount, but while we can assume that because they are not around anymore means he has free reign it could mean he can't receive anymore too. I still fully believe that this will be worked into the plot some how at some point.
If he didn't have the limit we wouldn't get the Valeyard who apparently only comes about because The Doctor runs out of lives and a part of him wants to go on.
APZonerunner
Member
Well, their timeline isn't strictly backwards, just vaguely - for instance the River in Manhattan is post Let's Kill Hitler, and so on. This is probably her last ever appearance now, I'd guess, and Moffat wanted the payoff of a River who knows her fate.
Also, if she'd been there physically it would've been her who'd sacrificed herself, I guess - so there's that, too.
That's who I meant, yeah - the Master is the one who talks about being given a new cycle in exchange for fighting. You're right about the Valeyard, though. Moffat can always retcon that character to not be defined by the regeneration limit, though. The Dream Lord was basically the Valeyard.
The plot required a version of her far enough along to know the Doctor's name.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Library River is pure consciousness; the alternative would be to knock out a "live" River like Vastra did to Clara, which I mean River is far too clever to fall for.
APZonerunner
Member
I want to reiterate again how gutted I am Moffat had to reverse Jenny's death. That "I think I've been murdered" is a great scene, and creepy as hell, but is completely deflated in hindsight knowing that now only does she survive, but she's killed and bought back AGAIN before the end of the episode.
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