Because that's what the doctor implied whilst speaking to Clara, and she knew all of the doctors except this one. He didn't imply that the 8th had gotten old and then broken the promise. He implied that this version of himself had broken the promise and deviated from being the doctor.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Because that's what the doctor implied whilst speaking to Clara, and she knew all of the doctors except this one. He didn't imply that the 8th had gotten old and then broken the promise. He implied that this version of himself had broken the promise and deviated from being the doctor.
"I wish he'd never discovered that place."
What's so bad about that place?
It's a bit of a bugger when the finale is chock full of stuff you don't really care about.
I've never really found Clara very interesting or endearing, so that's number one. The Great Intelligence was an interesting idea, but I don't think it was particularly well handled in The Snowmen, so the return here is number two. I like River Song, but her magic ghost showing up here for her umpteenth appearance was number three. Vastra, Jenny and Strax are starting to feel a bit played-out for me too, so they're number four.
I liked the graveyard planet and the "size-leaked" TARDIS as a tomb though, and the splintering of Clara was a nice idea. The Whispermen felt like a bit of a cliche (and a not-really-explained one at that) though.
I enjoyed watching it, anyway.
I've never really found Clara very interesting or endearing, so that's number one. The Great Intelligence was an interesting idea, but I don't think it was particularly well handled in The Snowmen, so the return here is number two. I like River Song, but her magic ghost showing up here for her umpteenth appearance was number three. Vastra, Jenny and Strax are starting to feel a bit played-out for me too, so they're number four.
I liked the graveyard planet and the "size-leaked" TARDIS as a tomb though, and the splintering of Clara was a nice idea. The Whispermen felt like a bit of a cliche (and a not-really-explained one at that) though.
I enjoyed watching it, anyway.
I thought most of Series 7 has been very weak besides the Moffat episodes. Like I wrote before, he's the only one that has been able to write these single, compressed episodes without it feeling like the pacing is off or something has been cut out.
Also Clara has been the worst thing about this series. Now that her mystery is over hopefully we'll get some proper development of her.
Eh, I don't think this is that true. I started with 9 as well and loved this episode, the guy you quoted hated it.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Good on you. C+... Ugh.
Exterminieren
Banned
The populace is notable for their aptitude for pugilism.
Ah'll fuckin' cut ye.
It is, by the grades given by the AV Club, the worst episode of Doctor Who since Voyage of the Damned.
Or, considering there aren't any reviews for episodes prior to Voyage of the Damned, the WORST. EPISODE. EVER.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
So you think its McGann, Hurt, Eccleston, Tennant, Smith? I could see hurt being McGann's Valeyard maybe. He has been seen with a Eccleston style Jacket and a McGann style classic look underneath. Could be McGannn lost himself during the Time War, The Valeyard took over did what needed to be done and then Eccleston came out the other side. Now the Valeyard has escaped the doctors time stream into normal continuity.
equippedwithtowel
Member
I would probably have a much bigger issue with the whispermen if they had any more importance or if the episode didn't end on a cliffhanger.
Exterminieren
Banned
I don't think the Valeyard has anything to do with it. I just think it's a straightforward incarnation of the Doctor that did terrible things and is quietly discounted by the others.
The Valeyard was pure shit, and I hope we never, ever see the concept again.
equippedwithtowel
Member
bengraven
Member
Loved:
- Clara
- the archive footage!
- the final goodbye to River
- the JOHN HURT title card when he appears - "HEY KIDS, IT'S JOHN HURT!"
- the dynamic trio - swore for a minute they killed Jennie and was like "noooooo"
- the giant TARDIS
- Matt Smith - made me tear up
- the millions of Clara thing
Didn't like:
- what the fuck was the point of the GI throughout this season?
- what were those things, the Whispermen? Built up, then basically went away
- I thought the Silence were supposed to be part of this...what happened to them? The Whispermen should have just been Silence
- Clara
- the archive footage!
- the final goodbye to River
- the JOHN HURT title card when he appears - "HEY KIDS, IT'S JOHN HURT!"
- the dynamic trio - swore for a minute they killed Jennie and was like "noooooo"
- the giant TARDIS
- Matt Smith - made me tear up
- the millions of Clara thing
Didn't like:
- what the fuck was the point of the GI throughout this season?
- what were those things, the Whispermen? Built up, then basically went away
- I thought the Silence were supposed to be part of this...what happened to them? The Whispermen should have just been Silence
Exterminieren
Banned
What? The Whispermen and the Silence had entirely the opposite goals. Like, the entire point of what the Silence were doing was to prevent anything like this from actually happening.
"On the Fields of Trenzalore"
Pretty clear, lol.
"at the fall of the eleventh"
The 11th Doctor, at the fall I imagine to mean his death, so he will have fallen because of rather than he fell beforehand.
"when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer"
No one but the Doctor knows his name that is alive, and he wasn't going to answer, River answered but she is dead so that lines up somewhat.
"a question will be asked, a question that must never, ever, be answered"
Pretty clear too.
The Great Intelligence is actually an older enemy, but it wasn't set up very well just appearing at Christmas, I think if they let Gaiman use him like he wanted instead of changing it to House it would have made a lot more sense as he would have appeared earlier. The Whispermen were just henchmen of TGI, and the Silence weren't there because they didn't think they needed to be, they thought they had killed The Doctor already so they thought their mission was done. It also wouldn't make sense that thh Wispermen were Silents, they were enemies, The Silence wanted to stop what happened in the episode by killing the Doctor beforehand so no one could enter his time stream.
equippedwithtowel
Member
I always assumed this was the case.
Kill the doctor before the time he saved everything was undone.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The fall of the eleventh: "we fall". He entered Trenzalore by making the TARDIS fall. 
The gigantic TARDIS was fantastic. What a brilliant idea.
The gigantic TARDIS was fantastic. What a brilliant idea.
APZonerunner
Member
To be honest, I reckon it's even simpler than all that - I think perhaps the plans changed. That quote always suggested to me based on the Fall of the Eleventh stuff that all this would coincide with Smith leaving, but maybe Moffat decided to move up Trenzalore stuff and hold back the latter - or maybe it's just been abandoned. Plans change.
Exterminieren
Banned
Of course, the fall of the eleventh could simply mean his TARDIS falling to Trenzalore from orbit.
And, thematically, the Whispermen broke the Silence.
And, thematically, the Whispermen broke the Silence.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Good, but not great finale. It probably would have worked better if it had a better set up and lead in.
Overall, this has been just a meh season. Nothing great. Nothing terrible. It just was.
Overall, this has been just a meh season. Nothing great. Nothing terrible. It just was.
Thanks, at least I'm not the only one who feels this way.
The constant description of the possibility of the Doctor doing horrible things always keep being teased I feel but will never come to fruition. I don't know they want the character portrayed that way, too dark perhaps. I'd like to see him closer to taking action at the very least, the doctor does makes make a lot of threats to enemies already of course.
When they came up with "he would rise higher than ever before and then fall so much further" I half expected him to have a "fall" in the sense of turning to a darker path for at least a bit, they always end up resting stuff anyway, they could've had him go on a bit of a mad selfish run, maybe make the companions remember the stuff he did after the reset if not anyone else. I don't know really know the extent to that it could be done well and whether it can be done with the show's target audience.
When they came up with "he would rise higher than ever before and then fall so much further" I half expected him to have a "fall" in the sense of turning to a darker path for at least a bit, they always end up resting stuff anyway, they could've had him go on a bit of a mad selfish run, maybe make the companions remember the stuff he did after the reset if not anyone else. I don't know really know the extent to that it could be done well and whether it can be done with the show's target audience.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
"On the fields of Trenzalore,"
So just the planet
"at the fall of the eleventh"
The Doctors grave
"when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer"
I don't understand this. Nothing was keeping the doctor from lying or not speaking other than how he cared for the trio. Other creatures could lie. I think its just for dramatic effect
"a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."
Doctor Who?
It kind of falls flat when you think about it. Since the doctor could just not answer it and even if he did answer it then its just going to be his name. I don't see why it can NEVER EVER be answered. River asked and he told her. Its not some kind of Carrionite "There's power in words" kind of deal.
So just the planet
"at the fall of the eleventh"
The Doctors grave
"when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer"
I don't understand this. Nothing was keeping the doctor from lying or not speaking other than how he cared for the trio. Other creatures could lie. I think its just for dramatic effect
"a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."
Doctor Who?
It kind of falls flat when you think about it. Since the doctor could just not answer it and even if he did answer it then its just going to be his name. I don't see why it can NEVER EVER be answered. River asked and he told her. Its not some kind of Carrionite "There's power in words" kind of deal.
bengraven
Member
Ah, okay, that makes sense.
I just thought the Silence had a bigger role in the "fall of the eleventh".
Out of all the episodes of doctor who (including classic who 6th & 7th seasons), this is the episode that jumped the shark?
infiniteloop
Member
No. How would that even be possible? 11 was around for 200 years in S6, never aged.
Plans always change of course, and it is perfectly possible that the aim was Matt leaving and 11s story arc was supposed to finish as we hit the 50th.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the splitting of seasons moved forced things along, we will have had 4 years of Matt but only 3 full series. So it is possible Amy and Rory would have left at the end of 3 rather than half way through like they did, and Clara would have had a full series to herself instead of an extended half of one before we hit this last episode.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
To me, that is the worst possible thing to be. I cannot feel passionately one way or another about it. I am just apathetic to it in the end.
I really hope Moffat delivers with the 50th anniversary special. My feeling all year has been his focus has been on that and not the main show.
I thought the "Fall of the Eleventh" will be our Doctor's regeneration, so we haven't seen it yet.
Exterminieren
Banned
For what it's worth, this is the first episode that I've felt outright passionate about as a really outstanding example of Doctor Who since The God Complex.
So there's that I guess.
So there's that I guess.
equippedwithtowel
Member
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Well, that was fucking putrid. At least the worst season in the 50 year history of the show is over.
I don't even know where to start with that pile of shit. I went in with low expectations and still found myself angry. About the only decent part of the episode was seeing some of the past Doctors briefly.
This was at the same time the most fanwanky episode ever, and the most continuity destroying. So, congrats on that, Moffat. Not happy with just steamrolling over classic continuity, he even contradicted The Doctor's Wife which was only one season ago. You'd think he would have stopped Gaiman from writing that if he had planned this out (hint: he hadn't).
We also get tons of Moffat's favorite tricks: people's memories being rewritten, timelines changing, fake deaths, and the Doctor being some all important figure in the universe. This episode has the Doctor's grave being the most dangerous place in the universe, and his name being the most powerful secret. It's absurd, and it's just the apex of all the ridiculous fetishization of the Doctor that Moffat has introduced in his time on the show. Gone are the days when the Doctor was just a wanderer through space and time trying to right some wrongs and explore the unknown. Nowadays, every story has to introduce some huge secrets about the Doctor and build him up as some sort of godlike figure who the whole universe revolves around.
What makes matters worse is that there is no reason to even care. Jenny and Strax aren't even characters in any sense of the word. There's no reason to care about their supposed deaths, especially since we all know by now that they'll be revived within minutes (and indeed they are). Clara makes a big sacrifice, but it would feel more meaningful if we had a more strongly developed relationship between her and the Doctor to lead up to this. However, we don't. Clara is nice and funny, but her personality has never been fleshed out strongly enough, and we have no real investment in the relationship between her and the Doctor. She exists to befuddle the Doctor rather to have a real relationship with him, so we can't really get too invested in any of this. Perhaps this would have worked better if this half season had spent most of their time developing the Doctor and Clara's friendship instead of having the Doctor obsess over her 'mystery' (which turns out to have a very boring explanation). To make matters worse, it takes forever from the Intelligence jumping into the Doctor's timeline to Clara doing it, despite it being immediately obvious that that's what will happen. If that time had been spent on Clara wrestling with that decision, it might work, but we spend most of that time with Vastra and Strax, and by the time we return to Clara she's already decided to do it, so any sort of drama from the scene is robbed right along with the pacing.
Then we get Moffat's carefully crafted middle finger to the fans of the series, and a promise that the 50th anniversary will also suck, and everyone who watched the episode is wondering why they even wasted their time.
I don't even know where to start with that pile of shit. I went in with low expectations and still found myself angry. About the only decent part of the episode was seeing some of the past Doctors briefly.
This was at the same time the most fanwanky episode ever, and the most continuity destroying. So, congrats on that, Moffat. Not happy with just steamrolling over classic continuity, he even contradicted The Doctor's Wife which was only one season ago. You'd think he would have stopped Gaiman from writing that if he had planned this out (hint: he hadn't).
We also get tons of Moffat's favorite tricks: people's memories being rewritten, timelines changing, fake deaths, and the Doctor being some all important figure in the universe. This episode has the Doctor's grave being the most dangerous place in the universe, and his name being the most powerful secret. It's absurd, and it's just the apex of all the ridiculous fetishization of the Doctor that Moffat has introduced in his time on the show. Gone are the days when the Doctor was just a wanderer through space and time trying to right some wrongs and explore the unknown. Nowadays, every story has to introduce some huge secrets about the Doctor and build him up as some sort of godlike figure who the whole universe revolves around.
What makes matters worse is that there is no reason to even care. Jenny and Strax aren't even characters in any sense of the word. There's no reason to care about their supposed deaths, especially since we all know by now that they'll be revived within minutes (and indeed they are). Clara makes a big sacrifice, but it would feel more meaningful if we had a more strongly developed relationship between her and the Doctor to lead up to this. However, we don't. Clara is nice and funny, but her personality has never been fleshed out strongly enough, and we have no real investment in the relationship between her and the Doctor. She exists to befuddle the Doctor rather to have a real relationship with him, so we can't really get too invested in any of this. Perhaps this would have worked better if this half season had spent most of their time developing the Doctor and Clara's friendship instead of having the Doctor obsess over her 'mystery' (which turns out to have a very boring explanation). To make matters worse, it takes forever from the Intelligence jumping into the Doctor's timeline to Clara doing it, despite it being immediately obvious that that's what will happen. If that time had been spent on Clara wrestling with that decision, it might work, but we spend most of that time with Vastra and Strax, and by the time we return to Clara she's already decided to do it, so any sort of drama from the scene is robbed right along with the pacing.
Then we get Moffat's carefully crafted middle finger to the fans of the series, and a promise that the 50th anniversary will also suck, and everyone who watched the episode is wondering why they even wasted their time.
Exterminieren
Banned
You presume to speak for me. I wouldn't, if I were you.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
That would mean we are going back to Trenzalore. Which opens other issues (kind of)
It feels like Trenzalore should never have been seen. If that was the Doctors Entire Time Line then future doctors should have been present or 11 is the Last doctor. The TARDIS is there so even if it was just 11's grave then the Tardis stays with him so she won't be seen again.
Its got problems showing his final death. The big TARDIS had a cracked window which would imply that the current TARDIS is the final iteration and the control room was clearly non functional but retained the new "desktop" so either that never changes or its 11 dies on Trenzalore.
Why would the final resting place of the doctor be so orientated towards 11?
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I wasn't actually speaking for you, obviously. I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole that summarized how I personally felt.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I do agree with most of this actually. It was way to heavy on Moffat's "attempt to appear to have substance without actually having anything of substance"
Exterminieren
Banned
Well perhaps make that clear, then.
I'm actually a little bit sick of this, to be frank. You swoop in, once a week, shit on everything we've just seen, prescribe personal motives to people you've never met in your life (tell me, is Mark Gatiss still a racist, or have you dropped that narrative this week?), blithely assume that everyone agrees with you and flounce out again, ready to do it all again next week.
You want to continue watching and commenting on something you clearly loathe, you be my guest. It's your time you're wasting. Just don't pretend that you're speaking for anyone other than yourself, because you never are.
Literally everything about this post is wrong.
So congratulations on that, I guess.
OH GOD. I can't watch the show until tomorrow. I accidentally clicked this thread, started reading a comment, realized where I was, and backed the fuck out of here. Only words I saw before bailing was "fucking putrid," which doesn't exactly instill confidence...
Avoiding spoilers is though.
Avoiding spoilers is though.
Exterminieren
Banned
In short, Kuwa gonna bara, yeah.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Clara's scene where she enters the vortex doesn't make any sense on an emotional level. Like, at all. She's known the Doctor for half a season. We've never seen them bonding in any significant capacity. Her deciding to just sacrifice herself for him because of, essentially, his reputation, rang hollow to me.
The finale is actually pretty great, especially how meh the last two seasons have been. Kuwabara doesn't like because he: a) hates Moffat, and b) prefers shitty social commentary stories to good but subtext-free stories.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I don't think that I flounce out, or anything like that. I check in this thread regularly, and I'll be happy to respond to anyone who has issues with what I wrote up. I don't assume that everyone agrees with me; I simply offer up my own opinions on what I've just watched. I usually type up my thoughts immediately, so sometimes I can get rather heated.
I want to continue watching Doctor Who because it's one of my favorite shows of all time. I've watched 797 episodes of the show, read books, listened to audios, and spent hundreds of hours discussing the show online. I'm not going to stop watching the show just because the current stuff is awful. And because Doctor Who is still the type of show where even if the show has gone down in quality, there will still be the occasional great episode, and I don't want to miss those.
(And I don't know if Mark Gatiss is a racist, and have never claimed to know that. I do believe that he's a jingoist, and a very reactionary writer, and I standby my thoughts on what he's written in the past.)
Clara has had next to no development at all, it's pretty bad. I for one am glad they just got the mystery out of the way so now they can spend some time actually writing her.
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