APZonerunner
Member
Usually - in most past cases of multi-Doctor shows - past Doctors have their memories wiped at the end, meaning they don't know future incarnations. We'll have to wait and see how the 50th handles that.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Usually - in most past cases of multi-Doctor shows - past Doctors have their memories wiped at the end, meaning they don't know future incarnations. We'll have to wait and see how the 50th handles that.
WAR recon zero
Banned
Great episode... the wait will kill me.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
I agree with your second paragraph I've quoted here, the first not so much. This season had a fair few episodes where the Doctor was an unknown stranger wandering into a situation and that the writers went to the lengths of having him erase himself from records shows that they thought it needed to be done to somewhat release this pressure. But really, this fetishisation, as you call it, has been there since the reboot. Making the Doctor the last Time Lord and the destroyer of all sides in the war kind of ensures that he can't just be a rogue time traveller going on adventures, and every season finale of the reboot has had similar grandiose threats to existence.
Without any other Time Lords around, the Doctor's grave would be the most dangerous place in the universe and his name being the most powerful secret was justified when it being spoken allowed the GI to erase large swathes of the universe.
On characterisation, half a season just wasn't enough and it didn't help that for much of it Clara was almost so underdeveloped as to make it creepy. I think the finale might have been better served as a two parter. Season 5 still has the best structure of the reboot imo: a strong introduction for Amy and Rory, early establishment of both the main threat and hooks for the companions' development and good interweaving of the two into standalone stories as the series progressed and a finale that had plenty of room to breathe.
While I do heavily disagree with most of Kuwabara's assessment, I don't think he makes any poiints that are completely unfair. Hidden in hyperbole or not (unnecessarily so in my opinion), there's no reason to rag on him.
I will say that I was a little miffed about the contradictions involving the Doctor's Wife came about, kinda devalued that episode slightly.
Really enjoyed it on the whole however, and I'm excited for the 50th. Also, I'm actually rather happy that the "impossible girl" mystery is done, as it'll give The Doctor and Clara's relationship a chance to develop outside of that for next season. Clara definitely has potential here, which I feel has been slightly squandered so far. Hopefully now that the mystery aspect of her has been solved, we can delve more deeply into her character and give Jenna more opportunities to show off some range.
I will say that I was a little miffed about the contradictions involving the Doctor's Wife came about, kinda devalued that episode slightly.
Really enjoyed it on the whole however, and I'm excited for the 50th. Also, I'm actually rather happy that the "impossible girl" mystery is done, as it'll give The Doctor and Clara's relationship a chance to develop outside of that for next season. Clara definitely has potential here, which I feel has been slightly squandered so far. Hopefully now that the mystery aspect of her has been solved, we can delve more deeply into her character and give Jenna more opportunities to show off some range.
Beaniedude
Member
I really liked that episode!
It was awesome!
I think the plan is to go into finales with no hopes or expectations. Just expect the worst!
It was great!
It was awesome!
I think the plan is to go into finales with no hopes or expectations. Just expect the worst!
It was great!
infiniteloop
Member
Next Season: Clara's pregnant! or is she?
JoshuaJSlone
Member
The very late on-screen character/actor reveal reminded me of Zoolander.
Beaniedude
Member
Though am I correct in assuming that every single point in time the Great Intelligence went to to defeat the Doctor, Clara went to and beat him?
So Clara helped to defeat the Great Intelligence a bazillion times and not even once did she fail.
Major props.
So Clara helped to defeat the Great Intelligence a bazillion times and not even once did she fail.
Major props.
AHA-Lambda
Member
That's what I thought so I assumed Hurt was a future doctor (the blood soaked one) but sounds like that's not the case.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
RTD was much more about the science fiction than the Science Fairy Tale and I like that vibe for Doctor Who more. My fear is that when/if we get a new showrunner its not going to mix up the Vibe and its going to remain Science Fairy Tale. Its nice for a while. Its nice to see 11 being that Fairy Tale character but 12 and onward I don't want to be weighed down by it. Doctor Who has the potential to be any genre it wants within reason. I could turn into a light Science Thriller or a Science Detective show and still be successful. It could even go down a more Hard Sci-Fi route. I hope once Smith leaves that we do get some variation.
APZonerunner
Member
This episode really did make me think about Doctor Who and the Bechdel test. Hmm.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
I'd say it's more that the Great Intelligence only beat the Doctor due to foreknowledge/the element of surprise, Clara only evened the odds and allowed the Doctor to prevail where he would have normally (Asylum) or prevented his timeline from being interfered with. It's not like the Great Intelligence would have been expecting anyone to follow him and whilst he was being burned up in the timestream and presumably not at full strength or able to communicate with his echoes, every single Clara had that mission ingrained in her instincts. Even then she kept dying all the time, though maybe her willingness to sacrifice herself to protect the Doctor gave her an advantage. What a strong and well established character trait!
APZonerunner
Member
Fuck me, the Tenth Doctor is there when she's about to get onto the ship that crashes on the Asylum:
Don't read into this RE the 50th, though - the pose he's in is from a shot at the end of Forest of the Dead, with Donna edited out.
Don't read into this RE the 50th, though - the pose he's in is from a shot at the end of Forest of the Dead, with Donna edited out.
I don't think she was actually fighting/beating him anywhere, just that she would undo whatever he was undoing.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Fuck me, the Tenth Doctor is there when she's about to get onto the ship that crashes on the Asylum:
Don't read into this RE the 50th, though - the pose he's in is from a shot at the end of Forest of the Dead, with Donna edited out.
I was going to say is that not the Library planet?
APZonerunner
Member
It doesn't look quite the same, no. Just a similar sort of "deep brown colour palette + futuristic skyline," but it lacks a key feature of the library, which is that there are massive road signs (but with sections - ie "Xenobiology" indicating what books are in what buildings. Given that she's wearing the red outfit from Asylum, I take this to be the space port the Alaska departs from.
bengraven
Member
We're in agreement on that.
This was River's farewell. If she shows up again, I think it will be ruining that emotional ending.
The Elite
BOSS
The strange thing about the tomb is that it seems to be based around the 11th. It's the current console room. That might have to do with budget more than anything but it did suggest that the 11th is the one who dies - permanently - at some point.
Didn't the Master have a circular Tardis at one point? Or am I incorrectly remembering?
Sir Hamish
Member
That was a good finale. Didn't feel rushed for once, which is a problem I feel a lot of Who episodes have, especially last season's finale.
I'm slightly confused by the whole Silence thing and I think this is how it's supposed to work.
1. The Silence learn that at some point in the future the Doctor is going to go to Trenzalore and something bad is going to happen that they need to stop. They don't know what this bad thing is, only that it involves the Doctor being asked the question.
2. They try and kill the Doctor by destroying the Tardis. They fail and nearly destroy the universe itself, accidentally.
3. They try and fail to get River Song to kill the Doctor and fade into obscurity.
4. On Trenzalore the Great Intelligence does his bad thing but is defeated.
Basically the Silence were trying to save the universe by killing the Doctor before the Great Intelligence could use him to break into his tomb and undo everything he had ever done?
I'm slightly confused by the whole Silence thing and I think this is how it's supposed to work.
1. The Silence learn that at some point in the future the Doctor is going to go to Trenzalore and something bad is going to happen that they need to stop. They don't know what this bad thing is, only that it involves the Doctor being asked the question.
2. They try and kill the Doctor by destroying the Tardis. They fail and nearly destroy the universe itself, accidentally.
3. They try and fail to get River Song to kill the Doctor and fade into obscurity.
4. On Trenzalore the Great Intelligence does his bad thing but is defeated.
Basically the Silence were trying to save the universe by killing the Doctor before the Great Intelligence could use him to break into his tomb and undo everything he had ever done?
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
When Clara has just come out of the Doctor's time steam, and she has multiple Doctors running past her, did anyone see 10? I'm struggling to find him so I thought it might be of some significance.
Loved the episode though, ending blew my mind and the introduction was lovely, November is going to be a VERY long wait.
Loved the episode though, ending blew my mind and the introduction was lovely, November is going to be a VERY long wait.
Yep. Looks like it.
Only 1, 6, 5, 9 and 4 ran past I think.
APZonerunner
Member
As posted on the last page, Ten appears to the Clara who is about to get aboard the Alaska and later crash on the Asylum:
Maybe you've forgotten John Simm in a dress. Or John Simm doing anything in that episode, for that matter.
That was the Great Intelligence, wasn't it? (Or at least, that's how it's being retconned?) Blowing up the TARDIS to kill the Doctor and destroy the universe seems perfectly in line with his goals in this ep.
Pretty sure it's brown coat 10 that runs past before 9.
Fuck me, the Tenth Doctor is there when she's about to get onto the ship that crashes on the Asylum:
Don't read into this RE the 50th, though - the pose he's in is from a shot at the end of Forest of the Dead, with Donna edited out.
So that leaves what... 9 as the only Doctor they don't show her saving/helping/?
On rewatch, I still dislike how the season arc played out in such a hasty manner, and Moffat's style of continually leaving things hanging for no reason other than, "oh well". But I enjoyed the episode more this time around having given it some time to sink in and getting over some knee-jerk reactions. Still hope that ending doesn't fizzle out in the long run though.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
Oh yeah, never mind then, thought I was on to something!
I've watched the episode twice and didn't even notice him there, thanks!
That's 5 I think before 9.
The Elite
BOSS
I'm pretty sure it was 5 as well.
The Elite
BOSS
Logical conclusion, but one of my frustrations with this episode is that Moffat didn't put it into writing. He had a chance to close the loop, satisfactorily, on the whole story, and instead just left it up to the audience to interpret.
bengraven
Member
Well no, he runs past at one point. She at least sees him. Just didn't show any archival footage.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, the more I think about this the more I'm disappointed that it was basically just Moffat's "something big and dramatic needs to happen to history/a timeline/whatever" again.
The Elite
BOSS
GET OUT!
Until you finish the episode.
Then return.
It's frustrating because the hooks are there to actually close the greater arc but he just doesn't execute for whatever reason.
acheron_xl
Member
When you only have 42 minutes, something has to stay on the cutting room floor. Just ask Gaiman.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Sure, but this is basically three finales in a row now that are "the Doctor is dead! Psyche! Not really, you knew he wasn't so there was no dramatic tension anyway!"
The mechanism for his revival this time is at least better then Amy "remembering" him, but loses points for the fact that he and Clara have basically no relationship to speak of that would drive her to sacrifice herself for this man.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
This should have been a two parter.
Could have involved the silence as the GIs henchmen, and make it clear he was the voice.
Boom, storyline clearly concluded.
Could have involved the silence as the GIs henchmen, and make it clear he was the voice.
Boom, storyline clearly concluded.
The Elite
BOSS
Yes, but Moffat ultimately gets to choose what stays and what goes as showrunner. I think a satisfying conclusion to the story arc that he let play out for the previous two seasons is important to keep in.
Unless, of course, the "Silence will fall" arc isn't over. Which is a possibility.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Dude, the Silence and the GI aren't on the same side. This has been discussed to death already.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
APZonerunner
Member
Here's the question: Could an 8-13 year old, Doctor Who's REAL target audience, understand it?
The answer is no. In that respect, it has become too convoluted. In the past there were arcs that were more complex, but simple enough that 'non sci-fi addict' mom or dad could explain it to the kids without going cross-eyed. My mother, for instance, doesn't understand how all this connects to the Silence, the exploding TARDIS (which she had forgotten about!) and the rest at all. There's something to be said for simple complexity; that Pixar feel where it can be understood easily by a child but has additional depth if adults want to go looking. The show doesn't have that in its current arcs, though, just full on complexity.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
On that note, the show's popularity really does seem to be spiking in the US. This place that does like, week long summer activity workshops for kids wants me to help out with a couple workshops "building a TARDIS" and "building a Dalek", and they say the registration for both filled up in less then six hours.
acheron_xl
Member
I think you massively underestimate the cleverness of children.
Hot Coldman
Banned
It's not confusing. The Intelligence wanted the Doctor at Trenzalore, so he could fuck up the Doctor's timestream and cause countless tragedies to occur. The Silence want to kill the Doctor to ensure this can never come to pass.
Are the Silence (the aliens) evil? Undoubtedly. They murder, enslave and manipulate entire races for generations upon generations. The organisation, of course, is more driven by fear, but as some green dude once said, "Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering". So yeah, from top to bottom, the Silence aren't good people. But the Great Intelligence is more chaotic evil, plus he's vengeful, and he's armed with knowledge on making the Doctor suffer than the likes of the Daleks or the Master could ever even dream of. He also exists in a form where, essentially, he has little to fear, beyond missing out on another meal of souls.
So yeah. The Silence would never collude with the Great Intelligence.
Please take a look at the last couple of pages.
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