StealthGoblin
Banned
Indeed. I taught Doctor Who for 2 weeks to my 6 and 7 year olds and they absolutely get it. They are obsessed and know far more than I have taught them.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Indeed. I taught Doctor Who for 2 weeks to my 6 and 7 year olds and they absolutely get it. They are obsessed and know far more than I have taught them.
Hot Coldman
Banned
If you think a child doesn't understand something, you're usually wrong.
APZonerunner
Member
Nah, I don't think I do. I think most TV shows do in this day and age. I'm not saying Doctor Who should ever be Sarah Jane Adventures (or worse, as SJA is pretty great kids' TV really).
I don't think, for instance, kids had trouble understanding the logic behind the crack in time, or the non-linear nature of Blink or the relationship with River. These are complex concepts, but children understand them and latch onto them absolutely. In Doctor Who Adventures polls (UK kids-focused magazine), River was charting as the second 'best' character after the Doctor, beating other companions, because kids get that, and her, I think, in a way more pure than all of us. That's fantastic.
What I'm saying, though, is if people here, part of an SUPER DOCTOR WHO NERD ELITE, are confused about the nature of the way the Silence/GI stuff shakes out and the actual motivations of the Silence, the kids probably aren't going to get it. Ultimately it doesn't matter, I suppose - to a lot of those kids the Silence are baddies and that is that. Part of the problem is we're all thinking about it too much, dissecting things like Dorium's words in a manner that children never would. Part of being a boring-ass adult, right? It'd be nice if the storytelling was a little clearer, though. There's a difference between nuance and just being plain out unclear, and I think this is the latter.
Hopefully, though, this arc gets resolved more firmly before Moffat/Smith leave. We've got a whole other series now, it seems, so my hopes are high. And hopefully he'll tackle the Valeyard stuff name-dropped this week, too.
acheron_xl
Member
It is because people are overthinking it. Why didn't they explain exactly what happened to the exploding TARDIS? Because, that's why. On to the next thing.
And saying that because an adult can't understand something, it's outside the intellectual reach of children is a bit silly. My parents didn't have a goddamn clue how to program their VCR (and it was a really old one that was really convoluted), but I figured that shit out when I was about 7.
That's just an excuse for terrible storytelling then.
acheron_xl
Member
You're not entirely wrong. I also think there's been some mismanagement of fan expectations.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Why doesn't someone just ask Moffat one day who the TARDIS voice was
all these fansites, you'd think one of them would get an interview with him
all these fansites, you'd think one of them would get an interview with him
APZonerunner
Member
Incidentally one of the few worthwhile bits of Outpost Gallifrey is the "What did the kids and 'not we' think?" thread for every week's episode where hardcore fans report how their children/relatives/significant others reacted to the episode. Usually very interesting threads, and one of the few reasons I lurk.
If there's one thing the hardcore fandom should have come to expect by now, it's that some of these threads are unlikely to ever be resolved in a way they deem 'satisfactory', if at all.
If there's one thing the hardcore fandom should have come to expect by now, it's that some of these threads are unlikely to ever be resolved in a way they deem 'satisfactory', if at all.
Hot Coldman
Banned
We're not saying all children are clever, that'd be ridiculous.
Just more than you may think.
Well yeah, but that is to be expected at this point. Modern Who series finales have always been massively overhyped, both by the BBC and the fans, on the "SHIT IS GOING TO GET DOOOOOWN" aspect. RTD had it with his massive invasions and Moffat has it with his "The Doctor is going to die and it is going to lead to the end of the universe" storylines.
Oh, that's good.
Love it. We've known all along!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
...I don't see how. I mean, its not bad, its clearly a budget thing, but 11 definitely isn't the one to permanently die.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I think the Tomb was all... 11thy... because that was as far as the timestream had progressed so far. His timestream is a wound in the fabric of reality, and it's only going to get bigger- that timestream was simply his own personal history up to that point, the wound as it stands. Similarly, I believe if this story was, say, a Fifth Doctor serial, whoever ended up throwing themselves into the timestream would only bump into Doctors 1-5, and the tomb would resemble the Fifth Doctor's TARDIS control room.
The timestream has a beginning- the catalyst of his conception, his "leaf" if you will- and an end. The end must exist, the end is a fixed point if you will, the Doctor will be buried on Trenzalore. But the rest is still being filled in. If his timestream is already set in stone, how can he possibly change history? His ability to have an impact on history is reliant on his timestream not being a given. Sure, sometimes his future has enough of an impact that his past self gets wind of it (his "death" at Silencio, prophecies like the Four Knocks), but like he tells Professor Palmer, the paradoxes of time travel work themselves out in the end. For the most part, the Doctor's fate is absolutely wide open, and the wound he leaves on time and space is ever the worse for it.
...Anyway, that's just how I reckon that came to be. The actual answer is, of course, the ease of dressing up the existing TARDIS set as opposed to designing a whole new room for the Tomb, but in-universe, I believe there's a way to rationalise why the Tomb of the Doctor looks like 11's TARDIS.
The timestream has a beginning- the catalyst of his conception, his "leaf" if you will- and an end. The end must exist, the end is a fixed point if you will, the Doctor will be buried on Trenzalore. But the rest is still being filled in. If his timestream is already set in stone, how can he possibly change history? His ability to have an impact on history is reliant on his timestream not being a given. Sure, sometimes his future has enough of an impact that his past self gets wind of it (his "death" at Silencio, prophecies like the Four Knocks), but like he tells Professor Palmer, the paradoxes of time travel work themselves out in the end. For the most part, the Doctor's fate is absolutely wide open, and the wound he leaves on time and space is ever the worse for it.
...Anyway, that's just how I reckon that came to be. The actual answer is, of course, the ease of dressing up the existing TARDIS set as opposed to designing a whole new room for the Tomb, but in-universe, I believe there's a way to rationalise why the Tomb of the Doctor looks like 11's TARDIS.
He might. Knowing Moffat, though, there'll just be a big-ass reset button at the end of the 50th to sort it all out. Remember, he's 'died' before!
JonathanEx
Member
Watched it again. Still hugely impressed. Can see why as it cliffhangs it feels less like a finale, and yes, it is another "Doctor will die but then he doesn't" but top execution. No Big Bang but loved it.
Oh, I have to say - got proper shivers on the "Run you clever boy... and remember me". That was very sweet. Really liked that moment, still gets me a bit on repeat.
Oh, I have to say - got proper shivers on the "Run you clever boy... and remember me". That was very sweet. Really liked that moment, still gets me a bit on repeat.
I think it's got to do with the fact that the TARDIS exists simultaneously everywhere within time and space but relatively speaking from the TARDIS's point of view the current incarnation is the latest one to 'exist' since it's still progressing linearly through time.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Don't remind me :/ I knew even as I was watching the excellent "Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon" that there was no way they could possibly deliver, but even based on my low expectations "he was really a robot" was dumb
Honestly I feel like I'm watching Lost these days.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Yes, that's a much shorter way of saying what I was getting at, haha. A reflection of the current point in the TARDISs/Doctor's timestream.
I'm pretty sure he stole it from a museum, not a repair shop. It was an obsolete "Model 40" TARDIS that had been retired.
My feeling is he was about to steal a better-functioning TARDIS before "Clara" told him he was making a mistake, because we all know his adventures depend on a TARDIS that rarely works exactly the way he wants it to. It takes him "where he needs to go, not where he wants to go."
Also, she knew which one was working because she was "born" into each timeline, and gained the knowledge required.
Also, I think the most powerful part of this episode is the firm establishment that the Doctor isn't immortal. He dies, eventually, and this is shown as fact.
But surely if the über-TARDIS was the future Doctor's one, wouldn't it be his and not the current one? Either that, or the TARDIS just doesn't get another redesign.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Which is kinda fine to me, except as others have pointed out it ruins some of the dynamics and lines in The Doctor's Wife
It's kinda crazy to think that Clara's actions effectively started Doctor Who.
JonathanEx
Member
Which is very true and sad, but it could be that the Clara only knew which one was "the" TARDIS because the TARDIS itself unlocked or told her or something
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, that bothers me. I don't mind her interacting with 1, and it was well done on a technical level, but Clara is nowhere near good enough a character for me to feel comfortable with them shoehorning that in
Hot Coldman
Banned
That's what I was trying to say- the timestream hasn't reached the point where the final TARDIS desktop theme has been chosen. For all we know it could end up as the first bright pink TARDIS. The end of the timestream, the tomb is a fixed point- the rest of the Doctor's life is still to occur, including setting the final desktop theme, and so the Tomb can only take the form of the current TARDIS theme.
APZonerunner
Member
All the scene needed to work was for the Doctor/Susan to not actually be inside the one they were going for, with Clara suggesting "This one's unlocked, and the navigation system is knackered and you'll have more fun" and it wouldn't contradict The Doctor's Wife, but sadly they've already got the door of one of the others open when she intervenes, so...
StalkerUKCG
Banned
10 runs past you can see the brown coat
APZonerunner
Member
That's 4, who you then see dashing away from behind in the very next shot. You see 10 in the Alaska spaceport, though.
I still love that first scene, it's so hilarious. I can only imagine what was going through grand moffs mind at the time he was writing it.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
While it's true that they did bring back an element of the Doctor being unknown this season, they did it in a very overt way. As in, they had the Doctor erasing mentions of himself, and even made it a story detail of the Doctor now not being as well known. Rather than simply having people no knowing the Doctor, they had to make a big deal out of it (these people don't know who the Doctor is; isn't that strange?), which kind of undercut the whole thing as far as I was concerned.
I agree that an element of it was there even during RTD's era, but it was generally pretty small. There were very few stories under RTD that really required him (or even Time Lords in general) having a reputation outside of people who already knew him.
On the characterization side, I think this episode could have worked fine as a single part episode. They just needed to develop Clara in the episodes leading up to this, instead of simply going on and on about how she's 'the impossible girl' and never really giving us a real relationship between her and the Doctor.
In this season's case, it was the character development.
Moffat loves inserting his own creations all over the history of the show. Now he gets to say that his pet character is personally responsible for the entirety of Doctor Who.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The most uncomfortable part of Clara meeting the first Doctor is the idea that he would listen to a word she says. Like, really? He seems like far too much of a hardass to listen to someone like that.
Yeah, I didn't care much for that bit. The repair shop, that was great, mind.
Yeah, I didn't care much for that bit. The repair shop, that was great, mind.
She's essentially being reincarnated in all of these instances, right? So each Clara may not have the original Clara's memories.
Oh man. I didn't even think of it like that. That really just takes the cake, doesn't it?
obin_gam
Member
I seriously can not stop watching that ending scene.
This...
Looks like a bunch of fancy gravestones to me.
So... Trenzalore?
A couple other things out of place with Clara. Her early mention of "run you clever boy and remember" as the password, 11th is best, and "pond" are all now definitively gigantic unbelievable coincidences.
I think continuity breaks are inevitable. Each episode introduces many constraints on continuity and the constraint satisfaction problem over 700 or w/e episodes and other media is impossible for a human to comprehend.
Take for example The Doctor's Wife/Name of the Doctor contradiction. NotD provides an answer as to why the Tardis is so touchy with Clara - it's probably much more aware of her influence than the Doctor is. But it also breaks the aspect of choice.
You can further rationalize these together if you want: Tardis lies to The Doctor about the choosing as a way of demonstrating she cares, doesn't want the truth of Clara's influence to make a change in their relationship. But this introduces a new constraint - Tardis is jealous, lies - to make things even harder.
I do think Moffat invites these problems on himself though, like with the Modern Clara coincidence lines.
I hope the next series' plot does not use either the importance of the Doctor or the death of the universe as a major element. It would be cool to explore a more focused challenge in a season-wide depth. But, like all popular adventure media today, Who suffers from an escalation problem (see Marvel movies, Call of Duty).
I think continuity breaks are inevitable. Each episode introduces many constraints on continuity and the constraint satisfaction problem over 700 or w/e episodes and other media is impossible for a human to comprehend.
Take for example The Doctor's Wife/Name of the Doctor contradiction. NotD provides an answer as to why the Tardis is so touchy with Clara - it's probably much more aware of her influence than the Doctor is. But it also breaks the aspect of choice.
You can further rationalize these together if you want: Tardis lies to The Doctor about the choosing as a way of demonstrating she cares, doesn't want the truth of Clara's influence to make a change in their relationship. But this introduces a new constraint - Tardis is jealous, lies - to make things even harder.
I do think Moffat invites these problems on himself though, like with the Modern Clara coincidence lines.
I hope the next series' plot does not use either the importance of the Doctor or the death of the universe as a major element. It would be cool to explore a more focused challenge in a season-wide depth. But, like all popular adventure media today, Who suffers from an escalation problem (see Marvel movies, Call of Duty).
PowderedToast
Junior Member
hurt's face is so emotive
one of those actors i just love watching, he brings a wonderful complexity and sincerity to his performances
AND HE'S PLAYING THE DOCTOR
one of those actors i just love watching, he brings a wonderful complexity and sincerity to his performances
AND HE'S PLAYING THE DOCTOR
Doubt it since while Trenzalore was very un-Doctory ("A minor skirmish for the Doctor's bloodsoaked hands") it doesn't really fit with what little we suspect we know about Hurt's Doctor (Him having fought in the Time War). It could be whatever passes for a graveyard on Gallifrey or Gallifrey itself. The background itself isn't really clear enough to tell what he is looking at.
No kidding on the escalation problem.
Bad Wolf / Parting of the Ways
Massive Dalek invasion on future Earth. 9th wants to solve it by frying everyone's brain, Rose solves it with a handwave.
Army of Ghosts / Doomsday
Massive Dalek and Cyberman invasion on contemporary Earth. 10th wants to solve it by dumping them all in the Void. Rose sacrifices herself to do it.
Utopia / The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords.
The Master returns with an invasion of batshit insane human-head-spheres. Wants to use Earth as an springboard to invading the rest of the universe. Problem solved by Doctor Space Jesus and his apostle Martha Jones.
The Stolen Earth / Journey's End
Massive inva... oh no wait. Just the Daleks who stole a couple of dozen planets (through invasion!) so they can bring about THE. END. OF. REALITY. ITSELF. and repopulate the remains. Solved by the Doctor, the Doctor and the DoctorDonna with some applied magic wand waving.
The End of Time (Part 1 & 2)
The batshit insane Time Lords want to bring about THE. END. OF. TIME. ITSELF. with the help of batshit insane zombie Master and his Master Race. Solved by batshit insane zombie Master using KAMEHAMEHAAAAAAAA on Timothy Dalton.
The Pandorica Open / The Big Bang.
The TARDIS explodes for some reason and the Doctor gets the blame and is placed in a Rubiks Cube prison. Spacey-wacey and timey-wimey happens, the Doctor dies and the universe gets rebooted. And then the Doctor gets willed back into existence by the power of love.
The Wedding of River Song
You know all that "The Doctor Dies" stuff we've been teasing you with. Well it's THE. END. OF. TIME. ITSELF. because River is being just a tad selfish. But then everything is right again because she does end up killing the Doctor. Oh wait. No! It's actually a robot. Hooray!
The Name of the Doctor
The Doctor name is revealed! No wait, it isn't? Everything the Doctor has ever done is subverted by corrupting his timeline thereby most likely ultimately bringing THE. END. OF. REALITY. ITSELF. Oh wait. Clara sacrifices herself for some reason and rights the Doctor's timeline so that doesn't happen. And then her noble sacrifice is subverted by some spacey-wacey.
So that's 4 invasions (5 if counting whatever was going on in The End of Time) and 3 "The Doctor dies and it's the end of the universe". Each more elaborate and convoluted than the last.
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