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[googleplex]

So there are 11 Doctors (so far), but more than 11 regenerations?

Technically their have been 11 Doctors and 12 Regenerations shown so far. 10th doctor was able to regenerate into himself in "The stolen Earth"

The popular speculation is that the Hurt character shown at the end of the newest episode was a lost untold of regeneration that fought in the Last great Time War. But may not have called himself Doctor.

 

[liquidtmd]

Holy shit at that fan art. OK not a great stretch to shop into Cumberbatchs frame but 10/10 for effect and mood

 

[APZonerunner]

Here is a better shot of the costume John Hurt's Doctor is wearing in the final moments of this episode and in the 50th - an on-set camera snap from the 50th, but not from during a scene, so he's wearing an additional coat on top of his in-character coat. We can barely see the costume in NoTD, so small 50th spoilers, obviously. Here it is compared to another character, just to emphasize the point.

 

[RichardAM]

I know there's been spoilers and filming reports and teasers and what not, but was anyone not genuinely surprised at the finale and knew that ending was going to happen?

I've been on spoiler-blackout, just wondering if this had already been leaked or spoiled for anyone?

 

[APZonerunner]

I know there's been spoilers and filming reports and teasers and what not, but was anyone not genuinely surprised at the finale and knew that ending was going to happen?

I've been on spoiler-blackout, just wondering if this had already been leaked or spoiled for anyone?

Every way it could have leaked, it did:

1) The above shots of John Hurt in the 50th got out, leading people to speculate based off his costume not only that he was the Doctor but WHERE his Doctor falls, seemingly now correctly, way back in March.
2) John Hurt then obviously forgot (he is 72, after all) and straight up told a minor Scottish newspaper that he was playing the Doctor as "part of a trinity" with Tennant and Smith.

Based on this, everybody who was following really knew that the ridiculously secret last 3 minutes of the show would be a reveal of either Hurt or Tennant.

And then BBC America sent out the blu-rays early, before the episode aired! The actual episode didn't leak, but people posted the plot synopsis around about last Saturday, confirming everything that came out before.

That said- not sad I knew at all, really. The excitement of knowing vaguely what was coming had me bouncing up and down in my seat anticipating how it would be executed, and it didn't disappoint!

 

[FillerB]

Technically their have been 11 Doctors and 12 Regenerations shown so far. 10th doctor was able to regenerate into himself in "The stolen Earth"

Let's not count the meta-crisis shit as a seperate regeneration. Combined with the Hurt-stuff that would give some hilarious implications for who the Valeyard could be.

 

[wetflame]

Every way it could have leaked, it did:

1) The above shots of John Hurt in the 50th got out, leading people to speculate based off his costume not only that he was the Doctor but WHERE his Doctor falls, seemingly now correctly, way back in March.
2) John Hurt then obviously forgot (he is 72, after all) and straight up told a minor Scottish newspaper that he was playing the Doctor as "part of a trinity" with Tennant and Smith.

Based on this, everybody who was following really knew that the ridiculously secret last 3 minutes of the show would be a reveal of either Hurt or Tennant.

And then BBC America sent out the blu-rays early, before the episode aired! The actual episode didn't leak, but people posted the plot synopsis around about last Saturday, confirming everything that came out before.

That said- not sad I knew at all, really. The excitement of knowing vaguely what was coming had me bouncing up and down in my seat anticipating how it would be executed, and it didn't disappoint!

I managed to miss all that and genuinely got chills at the end there. Amazing stuff, glad I managed to avoid all the spoilers!

 

[RichardAM]

I managed to miss all that and genuinely got chills at the end there. Amazing stuff, glad I managed to avoid all the spoilers!

I'm the same. I knew there was speculation and photos of the 50th but I think avoided most if not all of it- never went looking.

I was a bit down on 7B as a whole which is maybe the reason for the above, but maybe it's the reason why I enjoyed that ending so much as well. Anything but flat! Loved it.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Yeah, I knew it was either Tennant or Hurt. My girlfriend actually hit me because she got hyped to see Tennant... even though I explicitly said maybe.

 

[TrueBlue]

I'm still disappointed that the "video of the 10th AND 11th Doctor" turned out to be a bit of a waste.

 

[wetflame]

Well John Hurt is a legitimate legend and an incredible actor, so I was really blown away by that final scene. Amazing stuff. It's shot really well too. Very dramatic. Initially I thought he was going to be a future incarnation of the Doctor, maybe even the Vanyard, which would have been epic, but I think I can live with what they've got planned for him.

Random question: the Clara that interacted with the First Doctor, would she have been a Time Lord? It's an echo of Clara, and not the real her, and it's the only way she'd be there, after all.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Here is a better shot of the costume John Hurt's Doctor is wearing in the final moments of this episode and in the 50th - an on-set camera snap from the 50th, but not from during a scene, so he's wearing an additional coat on top of his in-character coat. We can barely see the costume in NoTD, so small 50th spoilers, obviously. Here it is compared to another character, just to emphasize the point.

That certainly does seem to be a mix of 8 and 9's costumes. The John Hurt "Doctor" being a lost regeneration is looking more likely.

 

[Ithil]

The Doctor's tomb being opened is presumably what's now allowing the Hurt Doctor to return for the 50th, as I took from the episode.

 

[CorrisD]

I know there's been spoilers and filming reports and teasers and what not, but was anyone not genuinely surprised at the finale and knew that ending was going to happen?

I've been on spoiler-blackout, just wondering if this had already been leaked or spoiled for anyone?

Someone had actually leaked the whole episode a number of weeks ago on one of the DW forums and we had a discussion on here about it that mostly involves just posts and posts of black spoiler lines, it was dangerous territory for those who didn't want to know and luckily no one slipped up or was a mob about it.

So a bunch of us who had read it knew what was happening and the surprise at the end, it was still an amazing moment though.

The Doctor's tomb being opened is presumably what's now allowing the Hurt Doctor to return for the 50th, as I took from the episode.

I'm wondering if it will take place in his time stream and that is there excuse for them all meeting, it won't be Tennant as much as a memory of him as Matt and Clara try to get out. But this only comes from the fact that we didn see them leave, just walked away.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

The Doctor's tomb being opened is presumably what's now allowing the Hurt Doctor to return for the 50th, as I took from the episode.

Well it'll definitely have lasting ramifications, Vastra said as much. And clearly Clara was looking a little worse for wear towards the end.

I'm wondering if it will take place in his time stream and that is there excuse for them all meeting, it won't be Tennant as much as a memory of him as Matt and Clara try to get out. But this only comes from the fact that we didn see them leave, just walked away.

I think the filming snaps for the 50th already sort of discount this idea, not to spoil anything.

 

[Symphonic]

Well John Hurt is a legitimate legend and an incredible actor, so I was really blown away by that final scene. Amazing stuff. It's shot really well too. Very dramatic. Initially I thought he was going to be a future incarnation of the Doctor, maybe even the Vanyard, which would have been epic, but I think I can live with what they've got planned for him.

Random question: the Clara that interacted with the First Doctor, would she have been a Time Lord? It's an echo of Clara, and not the real her, and it's the only way she'd be there, after all.

Yup. She was wearing Time Lord garb.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Yup. She was wearing Time Lord garb.

But I mean, is she permanently there now? Can we assume Time Lord Clara died, but the 21st Century one didn't, and is the only remaining Clara? Lots of questions to be answered, I doubt many will be.

 

[Blader]

But I mean, is she permanently there now? Can we assume Time Lord Clara died, but the 21st Century one didn't, and is the only remaining Clara? Lots of questions to be answered, I doubt many will be.

Well, all Time Lords are dead anyway.

 

[wetflame]

But I mean, is she permanently there now? Can we assume Time Lord Clara died, but the 21st Century one didn't, and is the only remaining Clara? Lots of questions to be answered, I doubt many will be.

I took it to be that there's One True Clara, but echoes of her are spread throughout space and time in The Doctor's timeline. There'll be more of her out there but they're somehow lesser versions.

 

[Htown]

But I mean, is she permanently there now? Can we assume Time Lord Clara died, but the 21st Century one didn't, and is the only remaining Clara? Lots of questions to be answered, I doubt many will be.

The mysterious woman from the End of Time was an older version of Clara.

 

[infiniteloop]

The mysterious woman from the End of Time was an older version of Clara.

This is now my canon.

 

[RedShift]

Maybe Clara will sort of remember all her lives, sort of like Amy remembered growing up with and without parents and Rory remembered being a Roman.

She could end up being a fucked up from the whole experience. Didn't she say something like 'I don't even know who I am anymore' in the last scene?

Doubt they'll want to dwell on Clara much in the 50th though.

 

[Stuart444]

Do we know how long the 50th special is going to be? Seems like a lot to cover is why I'm curious now.

 

[Lonestar]

The way he looked from behind (hair and leather jacket), and thinking of how he's said he's never coming back, I had a small "gut feeling" it was going to be Eccleston in a shocker, but this can do.

Have they ever said that they were going to ignore that Time Lord Logic of "12 or 13 regenerations only" limit? Cause if they bring that back up, and 11 is really the 12 regeneration, it brings about some interesting plot points.

 

[RetroMG]

The mysterious woman from the End of Time was an older version of Clara.

This is my new favorite theory.

 

[Randy Lanzarote]

I'm wondering if we're gonna see some Time War shit going down with Dr Hurt. Is he the one who ended the time war, but in doing so became unworthy of carrying the title 'Doctor'?

November needs to hurry up.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Okay, so... I think we've seen the last of The Silence. I realise this is probably obvious, but;

- A prophecy is made about Trenzalore, and the events that occur there. The ramifications are severe, we're aware of that. The timeline of The Doctor is tampered with, which has horrific implications for the universe he's done so much to develop.
- A religious order intent on bringing about a "Silence" to the Great Intelligence's answered question is created; i.e. "The Silence" that "MUST" fall. They first attempt to either kill or ground The Doctor by destroying his TARDIS.
- Separately, a well meaning but ultimately ill-informed group of The Doctor's most prominent adversaries devise the Pandorica, and seal him within this prison, presumably to simply stop him from doing anything rather than killing him outright.
- We see that The Silence aren't that clever... they're trying to stop the effects of Trenzalore, but by doing something like blowing up the Tardis they're fucking up the universe just as badly.
- Universe gets remade. Silence still exist. Silence & The Silents (alien) are seperate. The elaborate plan to murder The Doctor at the fixed date of his death (was this always known? Timey wimey!) is concocted. You can argue they're doing this for the good of the universe, but the plan to have him killed by the child of his friend is just them being arseholes.
- The Doctor "dies", to all intents and purposes. The Silence are watching at Lake Silencio and see this is done. The Silence disbanded?
- Trenzalore happens anyway. The Silence that "must" fall does not. The Silence are fucking idiots. The Doctor defeats them, but it's a bittersweet victory because now ValeHurt has been unleashed.

 

[Locke_211]

Okay, so... I think we've seen the last of The Silence. I realise this is probably obvious, but;

- A prophecy is made about Trenzalore, and the events that occur there. The ramifications are severe, we're aware of that. The timeline of The Doctor is tampered with, which has horrific implications for the universe he's done so much to develop.
- A religious order intent on bringing about a "Silence" to the Great Intelligence's answered question is created; i.e. "The Silence" that "MUST" fall. They first attempt to either kill or ground The Doctor by destroying his TARDIS.
- Separately, a well meaning but ultimately ill-informed group of The Doctor's most prominent adversaries devise the Pandorica, and seal him within this prison, presumably to simply stop him from doing anything rather than killing him outright.
- We see that The Silence aren't that clever... they're trying to stop the effects of Trenzalore, but by doing something like blowing up the Tardis they're fucking up the universe just as badly.
- Universe gets remade. Silence still exist. Silence & The Silents (alien) are seperate. The elaborate plan to murder The Doctor at the fixed date of his death (was this always known? Timey wimey!) is concocted. You can argue they're doing this for the good of the universe, but the plan to have him killed by the child of his friend is just them being arseholes.
- The Doctor "dies", to all intents and purposes. The Silence are watching at Lake Silencio and see this is done. The Silence disbanded?
- Trenzalore happens anyway. The Silence that "must" fall does not. The Silence are fucking idiots. The Doctor defeats them, but it's a bittersweet victory because now ValeHurt has been unleashed.

That's pretty much my reading.

 

[isny]

Do we know how long the 50th special is going to be? Seems like a lot to cover is why I'm curious now.

An hour -_

 

[Blader]

- A religious order intent on bringing about a "Silence" to the Great Intelligence's answered question is created; i.e. "The Silence" that "MUST" fall. They first attempt to either kill or ground The Doctor by destroying his TARDIS.

no, the Silence are separate from the Great Intelligence. They're goal isn't to fulfill the "silence will fall" prophecy, it's to prevent it from happening.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

no, the Silence are separate from the Great Intelligence. They're goal isn't to fulfill the "silence will fall" prophecy, it's to prevent it from happening.

I know... I'm saying that when you quoted me lol. They're literally trying to make sure they're isn't anyone there to answer Simeon/GI's question. Silence must fall when GI asks "What is your name?", otherwise... things get messed up.

 

[Randy Lanzarote]

Does anyone think that the 50th anniversary will tie up all those loose threads such as the Silence/Silents, exploding Tardis, rips in space etc in one act of scripting genius from Moffat...... Or should we just expect that they are done with?

Also 1hr for the special? Bit lame. A 90min feature would do nicely plz BBC.

 

[APZonerunner]

Do we know how long the 50th special is going to be? Seems like a lot to cover is why I'm curious now.

The BBC are being cagey, but it's sounding distinctly like an hour with a bit of leeway, not 90 minutes.

Filming was five weeks - a two-parter (90m) typically takes six or seven. A properly long episode like The End of Time (1x 60, 1x 90) took like twelve weeks. Christmas specials (60m) usually take 5. One of the actors from the 50th did a radio interview where they were asked if it'd be more than an hour, and they said "Well, it's difficult, because the BBC want it to fit between something and Strictly Come Dancing..."

 

[Petrichor]

Doctorwhotv has a "best moffat-penned episode of the Moffat era" poll up - the name of the doctor will probably be slightly higher than it should be when all is said and one because of the timing but it might prove interesting nonetheless:

http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffats-best-episode-2010-2013-49569.htm

For me it'd be something like:

Excellent

1) The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon
2) The Time of Angels / Flesh & Stone = The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang
3) The Eleventh Hour
4) Asylum of the Daleks
5) The Snowmen = The Name of the Doctor
6) Let's Kill Hitler
7) The Angels Take Manhattan
8) A Good Man Goes to War
9) A Christmas Carol

Good

10) The Beast Below
11) The Bells of Saint John
12) The Wedding of River Song

Average

13) The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe


All in all his episodes have been pretty consistent so far - but I haven't been wowed by a moffat script since the series 6 opener. I was hoping last night's would change that, and the first 20 minutes or so were certainly promising (jenny realising she had been murdered in the shared dream was so menacing!) but the denouement (bar the clara reveal which I liked) was a little banal and surprisingly short on ideas.

 

[Blader]

I know... I'm saying that when you quoted me lol. They're literally trying to make sure they're isn't anyone there to answer Simeon/GI's question. Silence must fall when GI asks "What is your name?", otherwise... things get messed up.

ah, I see, I misread that. :lol

All in all his episodes have been pretty consistent so far - but I haven't been wowed by a moffat script since the series 6 opener. I was hoping last night's would change that, and the first 20 minutes or so were certainly promising (jenny realising she had been murdered in the shared dream was so menacing!) but the denouement (bar the clara reveal which I liked) was a little banal and surprisingly short on ideas.

I'm of the opinion that The Eleventh Hour is a perfect episode and easily his best non-Blink outing.

My personal rankings for Moffat's S5-7 eps would be something like this:

The Eleventh Hour
The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone
The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon
The Name of the Doctor
The Angels Take Manhattan
Asylum of the Daleks
Let's Kill Hitler
The Snowmen
A Good Man Goes to War
A Christmas Carol
The Wedding of River Song
The Beast Below
The Bells of Saint John
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I think in a way with Moffatt you should seperate his "plot arc" episodes, and his one-offs, but here goes;

The Eleventh Hour
The Name of the Doctor
The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon
The Angels Take Manhattan
Asylum of the Daleks
The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
A Good Man Goes to War
Let's Kill Hitler
The Snowmen
The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone
The Beast Below
A Christmas Carol
The Bells of Saint John
The Wedding of River Song
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe

Name of the Doctor was easily the best finale. It was astonishingly dark, even if you discount all the silly Paternoster "deaths". Just this image is so haunting;

 

[RichardAM]

Doctorwhotv has a "best moffat-penned episode of the Moffat era" poll up - the name of the doctor will probably be slightly higher than it should be when all is said and one because of the timing but it might prove interesting nonetheless:

http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffats-best-episode-2010-2013-49569.htm

Best
A Christmas Carol / The Eleventh Hour / Impossible Astronaut + Day of the Moon

Worst
The Snowmen / The Beast Below / The Wedding of River Song

 

[Hot Coldman]

My favourite Moffat pinned episode will always be The Pandorica Opens. The episode had so much amazing shit in it, and had time left over to make a lone Cyberman into a terrifying threat.

 

[DieH@rd]

An hour -_

 

[Exterminieren]

The best word for The Name of the Doctor is funereal. The whole thing was just drenched in this sense of doom and bleakness, right from the off. One of the tonally strongest episodes we've seen; only Turn Left can match it, off the top of my head.

 

[Clegg]

Midnight was pretty bleak.

It was also a sensational episode of tv.

Probably my favorite RTD written episode of DW.

 

[xandaca]

Doctorwhotv has a "best moffat-penned episode of the Moffat era" poll up:

http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffats-best-episode-2010-2013-49569.htm

Excellent
The Eleventh Hour
A Christmas Carol

(RTD Era)
The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances
Blink
Time Crash

Good
The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang
The Name of the Doctor
The Beast Below
A Good Man Goes to War
The Time of Angels / Flesh & Stone

(RTD Era)
Silence In The Library / Forest Of The Dead
The Girl In The Fireplace

Average
Asylum of the Daleks
The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon
The Snowmen
Let's Kill Hitler
The Bells of Saint John
The Angels Take Manhattan
Space / Time

Poor
The Wedding of River Song
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe

 

[User 100115]

Midnight was pretty bleak.

It was also a sensational episode of tv.

I think that's why Midnight will always be one of my favorite, if not my very favorite episode of Doctor Who. He doesn't win. He barely escapes with his life. He gets no answers. It showcases the depth of 'mob mentality' and touches on mind control (possibly) and induction of fear. It's beautifully dark and disturbing, and I adore it.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Doctorwhotv has a "best moffat-penned episode of the Moffat era" poll up - the name of the doctor will probably be slightly higher than it should be when all is said and one because of the timing but it might prove interesting nonetheless:

http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffats-best-episode-2010-2013-49569.htm

A shame to exclude the stuff Moffat wrote prior to taking over as showrunner (as most of that was actually rather good), but I guess it makes sense to only focus on the current stuff.

For me, I'd probably break up his episodes from the current era like this:

Decent:
The Eleventh Hour
The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone

Watchable:
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang

Bad:
The Beast Below
The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon
A Christmas Carol

Unwatchable:
The Bells of Saint John
Asylum of the Daleks
The Snowmen
A Good Man Goes to War

Worse than having a stapler taken to your penis while attached to a car going at 90 mph as a dying bird empties its bowels into your open mouth:
Let's Kill Hitler
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe
The Wedding of River Song
The Name of the Doctor

 

[King of the Potato People]

Okay, so... I think we've seen the last of The Silence. I realise this is probably obvious, but;

- A prophecy is made about Trenzalore, and the events that occur there. The ramifications are severe, we're aware of that. The timeline of The Doctor is tampered with, which has horrific implications for the universe he's done so much to develop.
- A religious order intent on bringing about a "Silence" to the Great Intelligence's answered question is created; i.e. "The Silence" that "MUST" fall. They first attempt to either kill or ground The Doctor by destroying his TARDIS.
- Separately, a well meaning but ultimately ill-informed group of The Doctor's most prominent adversaries devise the Pandorica, and seal him within this prison, presumably to simply stop him from doing anything rather than killing him outright.
- We see that The Silence aren't that clever... they're trying to stop the effects of Trenzalore, but by doing something like blowing up the Tardis they're fucking up the universe just as badly.
- Universe gets remade. Silence still exist. Silence & The Silents (alien) are seperate. The elaborate plan to murder The Doctor at the fixed date of his death (was this always known? Timey wimey!) is concocted. You can argue they're doing this for the good of the universe, but the plan to have him killed by the child of his friend is just them being arseholes.
- The Doctor "dies", to all intents and purposes. The Silence are watching at Lake Silencio and see this is done. The Silence disbanded?
- Trenzalore happens anyway. The Silence that "must" fall does not. The Silence are fucking idiots. The Doctor defeats them, but it's a bittersweet victory because now ValeHurt has been unleashed.

I suppose the Silence could be what’s left… the fragments of the Whispermen/the great intelligence in the Doctor’s timeline, after being subdued by Clara. This could explain why people didn’t notice them (like the Doctor didn’t notice most of the Claras) and it could explain why the Silence were trying to prevent the events of TNOTD, as it reduced them to a lesser state.
SM doesn’t seem interested in revisiting the origins of the Silence though.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I suppose the Silence could be what’s left… the fragments of the Whispermen/the great intelligence in the Doctor’s timeline, after being subdued by Clara. This could explain why people didn’t notice them (like the Doctor didn’t notice most of the Claras) and it could explain why the Silence were trying to prevent the events of TNOTD, as it reduced them to a lesser state.
SM doesn’t seem interested in revisiting the origins of the Silence though.

I think their goals are directly opposite, even though they both want to kill The Doctor. The Silence is that of preservation, trying to protect the universe from The Doctor, whereas The Great Intelligence is essentially omitting suicide and attempting to bring The Doctor down with him. Like I said, I think they're done now, even though Trenzalore was mentioned in conjunction with them.

 

[The Technomancer]

Worst
The Snowmen

Thank you, someone else who agrees with me on this one

 

[Team Filler]

Well, that was unexpected. I really enjoyed the episode, flaws and all, and can't wait until the 50th. I really liked River's send-off, especially having the one final "Spoilers" moment. Wish Clara had more development as an individual as opposed to The Doctor's plus-one, though.

Also: was anybody else blown away at that bit of acting by Matt when Clara is telling him what happened at the "seance"? I think that might be one of the most impressive pieces of acting I've seen since the series restarted.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Well, that was unexpected. I really enjoyed the episode, flaws and all, and can't wait until the 50th.

Also: was anybody else blown away at that bit of acting by Matt when Clara is telling him what happened at the "seance"? I think that might be one of the most impressive pieces of acting I've seen since the series restarted.

I wanted to hug him. I really, really did. It's pretty poignant when you realize later he's talking about the place he'll die. Chilling, even for a Time Lord.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

The mysterious woman from the End of Time was an older version of Clara.

Oh my